Woodie Skill tree changes

[Danath]

I think Woodie's affinity skills should be given additions to their effects to allow woodie to have his wereforms still be useful in the late game and keep him on pace with other survivors.  Maybe allow Woodie to add pure horror and pure brilliance to his idols to give additional effects to each wereform.  Also instead of consuming the idol it should now have a cooldown and can be used again after 5 mins or something.  In addition curse embracer should be moved to Transform 3 and be replaced with a skill that allows woodie to keep his equipped items on and gain effects from them such as the ability to summon shadow tentacles and gain speed from the thulecite club while in moose form or using the lazy forager when in beaver form.  Adding this change would help woodie scale up in damage as the world goes on keeping him on pace with other characters that gain more damage post rifts.

[YouKnowWho142]

weremoose can already solo warbot/scion, do we really need a stronger moose

I don't disagree that woodie's wereforms need a sense of progression though, being as strong at the start as you are at the finish is extremely uninteresting and why woodie is a bottom 3 character fun-wise for me

[IAmAFurrz]

7 hours ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

weremoose can already solo warbot/scion, do we really need a stronger moose

I don't disagree that woodie's wereforms need a sense of progression though, being as strong at the start as you are at the finish is extremely uninteresting and why woodie is a bottom 3 character fun-wise for me

weremoose can solo a lot of things, but its extremely limited due to not having the ability to lose sanity on demand, tools on demand like panflute for dfly, oar for ck/malba (and cant fix boats), cant heal instantly (only jellybeans help ofc but that runs out too on longer bosses), firestaff for crystal dc (this forces him to dash in and out of dc after making her throw 2 icicles but thats besides the point). you cant beat BQ easily with moose so jellybeans is also not easy to get (weremoose hitstun immunity between hit 2 and 3 isnt easily accessible when you get stunned by multiple grumbles). its not bad, but its not like moose couldnt get smthn improved (just lets him equip amulets in wereforms klei )

[aidancode]

7 hours ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

weremoose can already solo warbot/scion, do we really need a stronger moose

"Can solo" and "reasonably solos" are very different things, though the point is definitely true. Maybe Woodie could get 1 more transformation that fills a unique niche combat role and is unlocked late game

[Catuna_]

8 hours ago, Danath said:

In addition curse embracer should be moved to Transform 3 and be replaced with a skill that allows woodie to keep his equipped items on and gain effects from them such as the ability to summon shadow tentacles and gain speed from the thulecite club while in moose form or using the lazy forager when in beaver form.  Adding this change would help woodie scale up in damage as the world goes on keeping him on pace with other characters that gain more damage post rifts.

i think this just kind of disregards woodie's wereform design, I wouldn't personally like this particular concept, though I'm not against the concept of giving him more
i don't think that moose needs anything, though, to be honest... 90% innate damage reduction applies on any form of damage and with jellybeans (considering that you're lategame) it makes you able to just kind of hold f on a lot of things. It has a bit of a skill ceiling, with certain fights like fuelweaver, but I think that's a cool thing for solo woodie.
the issue with woodie's tree is that when people think of woodie skilltree, everyone turns to weremoose. 

problem with woodie is moreso with his two other forms, goose quickly gets outclassed by beefalos and it makes it so that its use is quite limited to early game exploration (both land and ocean). weregoose mastery is completely awful, and I think that to fix this klei can let woodie either pick where he wants to fly to and landing in that general, costing him a big chunk of wereness (if not all of it), or right click himself to fly somewhere random to not kill the initial appeal of the mastery skill. I think goose's skills leading up to the mastery should be reshifted too. what I would personally do is that weregoose is now waterproof by default and and turning into goose will set your wetness to zero, goose 1 still speeds you up to 66%, goose 2 makes it so that you can dash to run faster at the cost of wereness, with a speed boost that increases based on how much wereness you are missing. goose 3 would keep the dodge, but you also automatically gain different feather types while running or something like that... i'm out of ideas lol. (if you think this is a lot just remember you're giving up weremoose mastery for this)

for werebeaver, i think that it's an already decent mastery, but it could still use more appeal... personally i would make it so that werebeaver mastery adds a tail sweep that either picks items up, or organizes them all into stacks for you to pick up later. I would also make it so that werebeaver 1 & 2 are combined, and that werebeaver 3 is a part of the mastery. for the replacements, i think it would be cool if it had a built-in scythe effect, and if it could till plots quickly (werebeaver mastery slam would auto-till)... kind of making it an omni-tool type thing, just an all in one solution.

I think that woodie could also use a QoL feature of being able to end transformations prematurely, a penalty could be applied where he becomes groggy for a bit, and this could be removed with curse embracer. additionally, his lunar affinity could be built in and replaced with a new idea since IMO shadow affinity is 50000x better.  Human woodie's perks are quite unfortunate, in my opinion, so I would add an upgrade to the hardwood hat and an upgrade to the walking cane so that these perks are not dead slots later on in the game, quick picker looks to be nice in speedrunning so I wouldn't touch it, but I think it could be condensed to two perks instead of three. And i think that treeguard feller and idol should just be combined and turned into a skill that is unlocked from wood carving. 
 

1 hour ago, IAmAFurrz said:

weremoose can solo a lot of things, but its extremely limited due to not having the ability to lose sanity on demand,

I just wanted to clarify here, you can just start at 0 sanity with the shadow affinity. It's usually how you go about it.

1 hour ago, IAmAFurrz said:

you cant beat BQ easily with moose so jellybeans is also not easy to get (weremoose hitstun immunity between hit 2 and 3 isnt easily accessible when you get stunned by multiple grumbles).

I also wanted to clarify, this is not true. Woodie bee queen is one of the easiest things to do in the game even solo and can be replicated easily. Look up Woodie BQ speedruns, you can run away when low to turn back into human, heal up with blue caps (ofc replicable with any healing food) and then turn back into moose and continue fighting. It costs like 3 idols which is pretty good compared to the usual more expensive setups people run for her.

[Picklesaurus]

1 hour ago, Catuna_ said:

i don't think that moose needs anything, though, to be honest... 

Its damage against planar enemies is garbage. His combo damage goes from 59,5 + 59,5 + 136 = 255 to 37,5 + 37,5 + 147 = 222 against planar and it becomes even more concentrated on a third hit that can reset before you get a chance to hit it. This can't be right. It feels horrible to use. 
 

Edited 23 hours ago by Picklesaurus

[Edible Coal]

26 minutes ago, Picklesaurus said:

Its damage against planar enemies is garbage. 

its third hit is 150 planar dmg btw

[Picklesaurus]

3 hours ago, Edible Coal said:

its third hit is 150 planar dmg btw

Its normal punch damage gets reduced from 59,5 to 37,5 btw

His full combo damage goes from 59,5+59,5+136 = 255 over 1,599 seconds to 37,5+37,5+147 = 222 over 1,599 seconds.

Whenever he can't hit the third hit and it resets, his DPS for that combo rotation is lower than a pre-rift spear:
Pre rift spear deals 34 damage and the attack speed while using it is 0,466 -> 34/0,466 = 73 DPS .
Moose normal punches against planar enemies deal 37,5 damage and its attack speed is 0,533 -> 37,5/0,533 =70 DPS.

This can't be right.

Reducing his overall damage and reducing his normal punches damage to concentrate it even more on a third hit that can reset is a bad way to implement planar damage on Weremoose, it feels horrible to use. The only thing I wanted for post rift Weremoose damage is for it to be like his pre rift damage, meaning his normal punches dealing 59,5 damage, and not this abomination of lower than lance DPS levels of damage on his normal punches. 

Edited 20 hours ago by Picklesaurus

[Mysterious box]

Aside from improving his planar damage there's two other big things I want for Woodie. First either remove the were locks or make better were skills for the beaver and goose to make them actually competitive with the moose but I think it just makes more sense to remove the locks players should be allowed to fully invest into more than 1 were form as what they offer isn't that great to begin with especially compare a to other skill trees. Then second add an additional effect on curse embracer to give Woodie iframes during the transformation and detrasformation phases. Taking fully unarmed hits feels awful.

[Hi.]

Now I wouldn't say weremoose falls off that much since he does have planar damage and planar defense but he does get a little bit weaker compared to other characters late game.

14 hours ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

weremoose can already solo warbot/scion

Yeah idk about that. Maybe for a skilled player but not for the average player.

Edited 18 hours ago by Hi.

[Picklesaurus]

2 hours ago, Hi. said:

Now I wouldn't say weremoose falls off that much since he does have planar damage and planar defense but he does get a little bit weaker compared to other characters late game.

In my opinion Weremoose falls off even when compared to Woodie himself. I haven't played Woodie in months, but after getting the first set of rift gear  I remember feeling like I was forcing myself to use Weremoose against planar enemies just for the sake of using it since most of the time it was easier and cheap to just use Woodie himself with rift gear. 
 

2 hours ago, Hi. said:

Yeah idk about that. Maybe for a skilled player but not for the average player.

 

I saw a video of someone killing Warbot/Scion with Weremoose and  I was impressed and wanted to learn how to do the same, so I created a test world specifically for that.What I found out after one week and MANY MANY attempts and finally being able to do it with some questionable consistency, is that it is much easier and simpler to do the same with human form Woodie in any of the rift weapon and armor sets. 

Here are some things that I learned:

1.The player has to untransform at least once but usually two times both because the fight takes longer than a full transformation duration and also to heal back up.

2.Unstransforming is extremely awkward and deadly in this fight; Warbot will follow you around while you are trying to drain your weremeeter and one shoot you by lasering or jumping/seating on you as soon as you are untransforming and scion can one shoot with any of its attacks while you are untrasforming  but the biggest problem on scion is that if you need to drain your weremeeter to unstransform and heal up, you are giving up on the DPS race to kill scion before it fills the whole arena with the damaging floor.

3.The fight takes long  because Weremoose DPS against planar enemies is bad as a result of badly implement planar damage on his kit:
  -Moose depends on hitting the third hit of the combo for most of his damage and he attacks slower than a normal character.
  -Moose 3 hit combo damage is reduced from 255 to 222 against planar enemies and 66% of Moose damage against planar enemies depends on hitting his third hit since his normal punches damage dont deal planar damage and as a result are reduced from 59,5 to 37,5 against planar enemies.
   The result of the above is that against a planar enemy that moves a lot or forces you to move a lot - warbot/scion - you are constantly being punished by incomplete combos. This is bad for a DPS race like scion and this showed because the times I killed scion with moose I was usually one scion's ground slam attack away from scion making the whole arena unsurvivable. 

4.Weremoose is inconsistent on Scion because how the fight goes depends on ether scion decides to do 2 dashes and 2 slams in a row or not, especially the slam part because if he does 2 slams and then does the rest of his rotation and then 2 slam again... Moose is usually focked. Slams reduces the area scion can be in for Weremoose to be able to reach with his melee and it is also time wasted that scion could be using to start his next supernova, and the supernova is what  Weremoose wants since he can tank the super nova while holdind F for guaranteed full combos. When scion decides to troll me with 2 slams in a row a bunch of times... its usually rip to me as Weremoose, not because off death itself at the moment it happens, but because I will end up losing the DPS race as a result of it and then die when the arena inevitability runs out of non damaging ground.

Edited 16 hours ago by Picklesaurus

[Hi.]

8 hours ago, Picklesaurus said:

Unstransforming is extremely awkward and deadly in this fight; Warbot will follow you around while you are trying to drain your weremeeter and one shoot you by lasering or jumping/seating on you as soon as you are untransforming and scion can one shoot with any of its attacks while you are untrasforming  but the biggest problem on scion is that if you need to drain your weremeeter to unstransform and heal up, you are giving up on the DPS race to kill scion before it fills the whole arena with the damaging floor.

You should watch a video on youtube, I think it's made by grm9, it helped me a lot. I tend to do fine until the third phase because you are forced to tank thermal missiles because of your were meter. It is possible to do WARBOT with one transformation but it can be tricky. What I like to do is bait the lazer so it's on cooldown and dash super far away from WARBOT and then revert back to woodie, heal, eat a jellybean, and then transform back into moose. It is still super dangerous though and I mostly die whenever I get cocky and not want to heal. For sicon just don't damage him since he wont slam until you damage him and he's pretty easy to avoid and you can revert and heal, etc.

 

8 hours ago, Picklesaurus said:

4.Weremoose is inconsistent on Scion because how the fight goes depends on ether scion decides to do 2 dashes and 2 slams in a row or not, especially the slam part because if he does 2 slams and then does the rest of his rotation and then 2 slam again... Moose is usually focked. Slams reduces the area scion can be in for Weremoose to be able to reach with his melee and it is also time wasted that scion could be using to start his next supernova, and the supernova is what  Weremoose wants since he can tank the super nova while holdind F for guaranteed full combos. When scion decides to troll me with 2 slams in a row a bunch of times... its usually rip to me as Weremoose, not because off death itself at the moment it happens, but because I will end up losing the DPS race as a result of it and then die when the arena inevitability runs out of non damaging ground.

I find Sicon really easy as moose for me at least. You can just dash to avoid attacks but be careful though. For the slam just dash through him. Moose's knockback resistance really shines here. You should be able to do it in one transformation.

 

Again im not the best, I just wanted to share some tips that helped me a lot. It is possible and it is a lot cheaper than doing warbot without moose but it can very inconsistent at times 

You could just do Sicon as moose and do WARBOT as woodie since moose can tank the supernova.

Edited 8 hours ago by Hi.