Should Skill Trees be just a buffs or a way to play characters differently?

[Kvetevk]

A lot of people are debating about WX78 skill tree, some say that he is weak, some say that he is strong and others say that he is okay.
Is WX78's skill tree  good or bad? There are a lot of mixed answers, but first we should compare it to the First skill trees.

• Wilson was the first to recieve a skill tree, he has a lot of useful and intresting skills, but most of these skills could be replaced by 1 item or by just collecting more resources. These skills have a lot of earlygame value but fall off later in the game, only a few skills can give players some value that lasts forever, mainly the affinity skills.

Nobody had a big problem with the skill tree, they were a free upgrades that rewarded players who played this character.
The next skill trees were added to Wormwood, Woodie and Wolfgang.

• Wolfgang was "the strongest" and recieved a skill tree that lacked flavored skills, his skill tree was made mainly for planar weapons, because Wolfgang suffered the most with planar weapons, his 2x damage could not be applied to them.
• Wormwood and Woodie on the other hand got skill trees that fleshed them out a bit and fixed theire flaws, Wormwood got useful and powerful skills and Woodie got a way to deal with planar enemies and a way to ignore the constant full moon.

Next we got Wigfrid and WIllow, theire skill trees were recieved pretty well, both got a new way to fight and enjoy the game.

• Willow that was regarded as a weak/bad chracter by many, got a whole redesign with the introduction of her skill tree, giving her flames practical use and getting her a fire magic.
• Wigfrid was good, but with the introduction of her skill tree, she had much better tools to play with and a new reason to use beefalos.

I will briefly explain other skill trees and what they focused on to not make this post too long.

• Wendy, her skill tree was probably most annoying to talk about and balance due to most of the Wendy players not being satisfied, she got new mechanics that focused on the dead and undead, Abigail got a new abilities to better counter bosses.
• Winona got mainly upgrades to her catapults, generators and lights, her last skills + the ones that were in middle (vertically) were game changing, her catapults got a bit of a nerf, needing to be activated, but other than that she got a way to revive, teleport and ways to use end game materials.
• Wurt got a huge buff to her merms that are better both in combat and in farming, a way to make wetness useful resource and also making merm king more valuable.
• Wortox, he got intresting system that gives players the ability to choose wheter to be a good (team focused) or bad (solo focused), he got a way to store souls, reviving/healing + damaging with souls and then he got skills that were both good for his backround and gameplay, making his role as a imp way more enjoyable.
• And lastly Walter, new ammo, new upgrades to his slingshot, upgrades to himself as a scout and also Woby's upgrades.

We got some skill trees that just upgrade the character and fix theire flaws, other give us complete overhual or a new ways to play.

WX78 was the first that also got a complete remake to his base-kit, making him much stronger in the process. So why is everyone mad at the changes? Even without a skill tree, he is much better than a Willow without a skill tree, but on top of base-kit being better and having more circuits, he also got a skill tree that adds a lot to him, a way to teleport, revive and support.

• He got upgrades that give him bonuses to his circuits, characters like Wilson, Wolfgang, Woodie mostly upgrades to theire existing abilities.
• He also got a completely new mechanics, chassis and drones, a new mechanics and items that characters like: Wormwood, Willow, Wigfrid, Wendy, Winona, Wurt, Wortox and Walter got.

Klei focusing on 1 skill tree, makes it better designed skill tree, getting all of the focus on balancing it. The skill tree has a bit of everything for every type of player.

So I wonder what kind of skill trees we really need/want and in which direction should we go?
Powerful abilities that enhances our gameplay?
Unique abilities that can change the gameplay loop?
Or bit of both?
And does WX78's skill tree feels boring because he is not more powerful or doesnt have a new way to fight, or maybe because people dont like hearing the word: nerf?

[Delta ONe]

He gained unique and interesting abilities; I think the point for those who are dissatisfied is that some of his abilities are useless or will become outdated over time. Overall, he's neither very strong nor very weak.

Perhaps it's the focus of the skills, with the developers making it clear that the focus will be utilities, and some wanting it to be more combat-focused. So, is it a divergence in direction? Maybe.

Edited April 5 by Delta ONe

[Nikki Darks]

I think it depends.

Skill trees (in mmos for example) are pathways full of buffs you get to pick from, the catch being you sacrifice certain pathways with unique buffs for the pathway you chose with unique buffs.

So skill trees SHOULD just be buffs... However.

In DST you sacrifice almost nothing for the strongest skills (look at every single skill tree). Klei makes certain pathways in their skill trees so disproportionally weaker than other ones which results in no actual, hefty sacrifices being made... You just get the best from the skill tree and that's it, lol.

This is why I think Wortox's skill tree is the best one, it locks you into a playstyle (naughty/nice) while also providing you with buffs... Something I wish they did for Willow (as an example).

It'd be so cool if they made Willow's skills way stronger, but you can ONLY put points into the Bernie path or the fire magic path.

[aidancode]

I'd say the best possible layout is where every character has an overarching character fantasy achieved by their base kit that they then get to specialize in with fancy new tools that contradict each other to some extent.

I think the current trees don't do a good job explaining "why shouldn't the player just get ALL the skills?" Besides just keeping power levels lower.

I think the trees should have been more about skills that are fundamentally incompatible. My brain goes to higher tier upgrades in btd6, where oftentimes it wouldn't even make sense to combine them.

Does anyone remember back in the good ol' days when they were still adding characters when people complained about Walter for having too many random perks instead of focusing on just a few core things? I'm reminded of this constantly when I see skill trees with their million random complex perks. And this is why I don't like skill trees in DST :P

[Kvetevk]

1 minute ago, aidancode said:

I'd say the best possible layout is where every character has an overarching character fantasy achieved by their base kit that they then get to specialize in with fancy new tools that contradict each other to some extent.

I think the current trees don't do a good job explaining "why shouldn't the player just get ALL the skills?" Besides just keeping power levels lower.

I think the trees should have been more about skills that are fundamentally incompatible. My brain goes to higher tier upgrades in btd6, where oftentimes it wouldn't even make sense to combine them.

Does anyone remember back in the good ol' days when they were still adding characters when people complained about Walter for having too many random perks instead of focusing on just a few core things? I'm reminded of this constantly when I see skill trees with their million random complex perks. And this is why I don't like skill trees in DST 😛

If they had like more downsides to them or make them have more synergy with other characters, currently the downsides doesnt exist and skill trees make characters even more powerful or make theire downsides disappear.
Thats why I started to play DS again.

[Evelo]

Made a post about this very thing. I personally think stuff that dramatically changes a character, (Willow, Wigfrid, Wormwood, and some parts of other character's trees) ought to be baseline with the skill tree being ways to further refine and power up a preferred aspect of a character. As opposed to what we have with the most egregious case of Willow, having a complete rework locked behind the skill tree.

Using this as an example, it's weird but work with me please: So a character gets a car through their skill tree. The tree doesn't do anything to the car, it just unlocks it. Everyone takes it because it is so fundamentally game changing that playing without it is worse than playing with it. So, instead, the car is baseline with the skill tree adding in new features to the car: Nitro, New tires for off road, fuel effeciency, anything to change what one player prefers. 

Now, in the thread I made, it was argued that through numerical changes only, it can be possible for a meta to form where everyone picks one build because it is numerically the best. Sure that is true, I just think adjusting numbers for balancing is far easier than changing mechanics, just requires Klei to do balancing outside of Betas.

Now bringing this back to DST, this is just a rough concept not like a true well thought out planned suggestion (i believe in identifying problems, not coming up with the solution). I love wormwood, I am sure that is clear by my pfp, and little signature thingy. So I say, make Photosynthesis, Mushroom Cloud, and Bramble Husk attack proc baseline. Photosynthesis regens at a base rate of 1 every 20 seconds. Mushroom Cloud has a smaller radius and causes Wormwood to be Groggy after eating the shroom. Bramble Husk proc happens every 6 attacks.
Skill tree: has 3 branches: Photosynthesis, Mushcloud, Bramble Husk.
Photosynthesis Branch has 3 paths: Health Gain every occurance (x/20sec) Healing rate (1/xsec) and State of Bloom (Full > Mid > None).
Mushcloud branch has 3 paths: Radius (small > medium > Large), Groggy (Long > Short > none), Duration (5 sec > 10 > 20)
Bramble husk has 3 paths: Proc Rate (6 > 4 > 2), Damage (22.6 > 30 > 45), Radius (Small > Medium > Large)

Now the thing about specialization is with this you'd have to balance it out and implement some locks to prevent people from doing something insane, like investing fully into Bramble Husk. Look at the Woodie Skill tree for example where the last trait is locked between each. Do it similar for here where the last point is locked for that branch. 

Over all I think this level of specialization would be more beneficial as it gives everyone the same tools to play with but allows each player to focus on specializing each of those tools.

Semi-related to this, I think downsides need to stay downsides, having skill trees cover the character weakness ruins the identity of the character. But given how Klei has been moving further and further away from downsides, I don't really think my opinion matters in that department which, oh well, whatever.

Edited April 5 by Evelo

[Cheggf]

Edgy Rick's legacy will never die. He is immortal, even all these years later.

[Evelo]

4 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Edgy Rick's legacy will never die. He is immortal, even all these years later.

huh? What legacy did that scum have?

[Cheggf]

3 minutes ago, Evelo said:

huh? What legacy did that scum have?

Making everyone randomly thing that underwhelming mediocre characters WX-78, Wickerbottom, and Wolfgang were actually super OP meta tryhard picks that are so much better than everyone else. Also you should be insane all the time, and you should never kill bosses because they can break trees. People say these three things all the time. 

[Evelo]

Just now, Cheggf said:

Making everyone randomly thing that underwhelming mediocre characters WX-78, Wickerbottom, and Wolfgang were actually super OP meta tryhard picks that are so much better than everyone else. Also you should be insane all the time, and you should never kill bosses because they can break trees. People say these three things all the time. 

damn, that's crazy. I watched 1 video of his and just his attitude and hubris made me quickly hate him. Didn't know he was the progenitor of those kinds of comments.

[Cheggf]

22 minutes ago, Evelo said:

damn, that's crazy. I watched 1 video of his and just his attitude and hubris made me quickly hate him. Didn't know he was the progenitor of those kinds of comments.

Yeah he just made up a bunch of random clickbait exaggerations to farm views, he explicitly said he was doing it on purpose and never even liked DST. He just thought DST was the way to get money, for some reason. I'm not sure why. It was a really weird choice for a game to try to profit off of, especially back then.

Although this is pretty off topic so we should probably stop talking about Edgy Rick. I just can't help myself whenever anyone acts like one of those three characters are way better than they are. 

[Kvetevk]

5 hours ago, Evelo said:

Made a post about this very thing. I personally think stuff that dramatically changes a character, (Willow, Wigfrid, Wormwood, and some parts of other character's trees) ought to be baseline with the skill tree being ways to further refine and power up a preferred aspect of a character. As opposed to what we have with the most egregious case of Willow, having a complete rework locked behind the skill tree.

Using this as an example, it's weird but work with me please: So a character gets a car through their skill tree. The tree doesn't do anything to the car, it just unlocks it. Everyone takes it because it is so fundamentally game changing that playing without it is worse than playing with it. So, instead, the car is baseline with the skill tree adding in new features to the car: Nitro, New tires for off road, fuel effeciency, anything to change what one player prefers. 

Now, in the thread I made, it was argued that through numerical changes only, it can be possible for a meta to form where everyone picks one build because it is numerically the best. Sure that is true, I just think adjusting numbers for balancing is far easier than changing mechanics, just requires Klei to do balancing outside of Betas.

Now bringing this back to DST, this is just a rough concept not like a true well thought out planned suggestion (i believe in identifying problems, not coming up with the solution). I love wormwood, I am sure that is clear by my pfp, and little signature thingy. So I say, make Photosynthesis, Mushroom Cloud, and Bramble Husk attack proc baseline. Photosynthesis regens at a base rate of 1 every 20 seconds. Mushroom Cloud has a smaller radius and causes Wormwood to be Groggy after eating the shroom. Bramble Husk proc happens every 6 attacks.
Skill tree: has 3 branches: Photosynthesis, Mushcloud, Bramble Husk.
Photosynthesis Branch has 3 paths: Health Gain every occurance (x/20sec) Healing rate (1/xsec) and State of Bloom (Full > Mid > None).
Mushcloud branch has 3 paths: Radius (small > medium > Large), Groggy (Long > Short > none), Duration (5 sec > 10 > 20)
Bramble husk has 3 paths: Proc Rate (6 > 4 > 2), Damage (22.6 > 30 > 45), Radius (Small > Medium > Large)

Now the thing about specialization is with this you'd have to balance it out and implement some locks to prevent people from doing something insane, like investing fully into Bramble Husk. Look at the Woodie Skill tree for example where the last trait is locked between each. Do it similar for here where the last point is locked for that branch. 

Over all I think this level of specialization would be more beneficial as it gives everyone the same tools to play with but allows each player to focus on specializing each of those tools.

Semi-related to this, I think downsides need to stay downsides, having skill trees cover the character weakness ruins the identity of the character. But given how Klei has been moving further and further away from downsides, I don't really think my opinion matters in that department which, oh well, whatever.

I will disagree, it doesnt fix anything, instead it would make skill trees less valuable and people would still use the same skills.

The survivors should be the same as before without a skill tree, so their core gameplay shouldn't change. WX78 is the only exception, getting a redesign to his kit and getting more circuits.

Also if some characters would get some skills for free as a base-kit, then the whole skill tree would need a complete redesign, for example: Wilson will get transmutation skills and they will be replaced with skills that makes the transmutation cheaper, making it worse and less valuable, then I would only invest in the beard and torch skills, because I would already have a part of the skill tree that I almost always invest in.

The skill trees are fine if people can choose different builds. You pick Wormwoods fighting skills and I picked support skills. Wormwood have a one of the best skill trees, having variety and being able to choose skills that rewards different playstyles.

[Evelo]

1 hour ago, Kvetevk said:

WX78 is the only exception, getting a redesign to his kit and getting more circuits.

But why should WX be the only exception?

1 hour ago, Kvetevk said:

it doesnt fix anything, instead it would make skill trees less valuable and people would still use the same skills.

But, how though? What makes them less valuable? Why would people use the same skills when offered options to specialize in what abilities they want to empower? 

1 hour ago, Kvetevk said:

Also if some characters would get some skills for free as a base-kit, then the whole skill tree would need a complete redesign, for example: Wilson will get transmutation skills and they will be replaced with skills that makes the transmutation cheaper, making it worse and less valuable, then I would only invest in the beard and torch skills, because I would already have a part of the skill tree that I almost always invest in.

Well, yes, the whole skill tree would need a redesign, idk why that is a bad thing? So many things are available and capable of doing. Skills like Wormwood's Plant Crafts and Wilson's Transmutation feel more like secondary stuff that promotes character swapping via the Celestial Portal rather than a real thing that can be interesting. Making it baseline could also open up avenues for different stuff that is more interesting. Maybe Wilson could get some unique crafts that can be buffed through the skill tree, his beard perk could add some new stuff to it, the torch tree could branch into different kinds of aspects, increasing insulation or even having an endothermic torch.

I feel like you aren't explaining why these ideas won't be a potential solution. You even mention here:

11 hours ago, Kvetevk said:

Even without a skill tree, [WX-78] is much better than a Willow without a skill tree

I believe all characters should be fun to play without a skill tree, where a skill tree allows for players to specialize in what aspects interest them the most. (Which if we break up WX's skill tree using this everything new is baseline idea, would be Flying Chest Robots followed by the Circuits, while someone else could focus on Jimmy and the Chassis, or the Chassis and Scouting Drone, whatever core aspects interests them the most based on their preferred baseline abilities.)

[Kvetevk]

1 hour ago, Evelo said:

But why should WX be the only exception?

I have no idea, Klei is focusing on 1 skill tree right now and they might be doing this to other characters that dont have skill trees or revisit the older ones.
 

1 hour ago, Evelo said:

But, how though? What makes them less valuable? Why would people use the same skills when offered options to specialize in what abilities they want to empower? 

For example: In a restaurant they wont give you 1 meal just for you to choose a type of seasoning, instead you should pick a meal that you like.
 

1 hour ago, Evelo said:

Well, yes, the whole skill tree would need a redesign, idk why that is a bad thing? So many things are available and capable of doing. Skills like Wormwood's Plant Crafts and Wilson's Transmutation feel more like secondary stuff that promotes character swapping via the Celestial Portal rather than a real thing that can be interesting. Making it baseline could also open up avenues for different stuff that is more interesting.

Skill trees already add something intresting and they are secondary stuff, main stuff should be a base character without anything new (except theire personal items and mechanics).
I dont see how any of these promotes swapping characters, you could say  that about any mechanic each individual character has.

 

1 hour ago, Evelo said:

Maybe Wilson could get some unique crafts that can be buffed through the skill tree, his beard perk could add some new stuff to it, the torch tree could branch into different kinds of aspects, increasing insulation or even having an endothermic torch.

Why should a skill tree only add buffs? Reason why skill trees exist, is that it gives you as the player ability to make your favorite character more seasoned. Imagine having 2 Womrwoods on the server and 1 is focused on farming and other is focused on fighting. By your logic both should be best at both but with a skill tree, they would be a bit better at 1 stuff. The drawbacks of choosing different skills would be gone, If a Wormwood player who got a choice  to upgrade his "base-kit" (but he would already have most of the stuff from the current skill tree) would always choose fighting skills to upgrade his fighting potential, because he has no need to buff already strong farming "base-kit".
 

 

1 hour ago, Evelo said:

I believe all characters should be fun to play without a skill tree, where a skill tree allows for players to specialize in what aspects interest them the most. (Which if we break up WX's skill tree using this everything new is baseline idea, would be Flying Chest Robots followed by the Circuits, while someone else could focus on Jimmy and the Chassis, or the Chassis and Scouting Drone, whatever core aspects interests them the most based on their preferred baseline abilities.)

I agree and most of the skill trees already do that. You just explained how the skill trees are now and not with the baseline idea, your idea is that WX78 would have most of these as a base-kit, but also could upgrade them with a skill tree, I want to know who would put points into drones if you could further upgrade circuits and chassis.

Example: WX78 would have the ability to make chassis and drones (+filler skills). Having the ability to make already good drones and having more skill points to spare, everyone would put them into upgrading chassis and circuits, there is no reason to put your points into drones, if you already have them. And also you would need to make new skills just for the sake of not being able to have eveything.

Edited April 6 by Kvetevk

[Mysterious box]

12 hours ago, Kvetevk said:

a way to make wetness useful resource

Sorry I know this isn't really what this post is about but I do want to bring up that this is still such a terrible branch due to Wurt not really having an effective way to reliably stay wet that doesn't just consume more time or effort than just using healing foods, items, or clothing and it doesn't even do well at making Wetness more appealing during extreme seasons. It effectively has no real advantages it's just considered acceptable because the rest of her tree(excluding sensible swamp fighter) is so good.

[hhhhddh]

3 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Wurt not really having an effective way to reliably stay wet

Just use water balloon. 2 mosquito sack(which should be easy for her) and 1 ice make 4 water balloons. Each balloon provide 20 wetness, 80 in total is quite a lot. Or just abandon ship(but it's much slower after the drown mechanism update)

[Kvetevk]

11 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Sorry I know this isn't really what this post is about but I do want to bring up that this is still such a terrible branch due to Wurt not really having an effective way to reliably stay wet that doesn't just consume more time or effort than just using healing foods, items, or clothing and it doesn't even do well at making Wetness more appealing during extreme seasons. It effectively has no real advantages it's just considered acceptable because the rest of her tree(excluding sensible swamp fighter) is so good.

Yea, that wasnt the best example, but what I wanted to say is that it adds more to a specific mechanic that the character already has, before the skill tree, she had almost no negative effects from wetness, with a skill tree, she now has a bonus and it removes all the negatives stuff from being wet.
I know that these are not the best skills, but it adds to her character, like for Wortox being an imp and having skills that makes him more of an imp (tricks).
Oh sorry, I removed that part where I talked about this more.

Edited April 6 by Kvetevk

[Cheggf]

6 hours ago, Kvetevk said:

Wormwood have a one of the best skill trees, having variety and being able to choose skills that rewards different playstyles.

Wormwood's got the second worst skill tree in the game, beating only Wolfgang with his fake tree that doesn't do anything except let him throw dumbbells.

The entire tree starts off with a useless perk that basically doesn't do anything, but it's a mandatory pick for some reason, so you've only got 14 points. But you don't really have 14 points, because his skill tree is just a bunch of huge straight lines with terrible perks in them to get to the perks you really want, so really you've got like 3 points.

The entire bottom left quadrant is useless plant perks that are so expensive to craft that by the time you're able to do anything with them you've definitely got the celestial portal repaired, and the only one that actually does anything instead of just being decoration is the monkey tail craft. Instead of choosing 15 different things, you're choosing "Which of these three branches do I not want?".

And it's not even like the branches are organized in such a way that it's doing what you say where you choose different playstyles. They're just completely random perks. If you want the super good armor perk you need to take a bunch of farming perks. It's not even choosing to go into the fighting branch or the farming branch, it's "Well I want the armor perk so I guess I'll take these useless irrelevant perks I won't use".

Edited April 6 by Cheggf

[Kvetevk]

38 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Wormwood's got the second worst skill tree in the game, beating only Wolfgang with his fake tree that doesn't do anything except let him throw dumbbells.

The entire tree starts off with a useless perk that basically doesn't do anything, but it's a mandatory pick for some reason, so you've only got 14 points. But you don't really have 14 points, because his skill tree is just a bunch of huge straight lines with terrible perks in them to get to the perks you really want, so really you've got like 3 points.

He has one of the best skill tree, yes it is not the strongest, but that doesn't mean that it has no value for Wormwood players.

Wormwood and Winona skill trees have a better design, having to choose worse skills before you can get the better ones (just my opinion)

45 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

The entire bottom left quadrant is useless plant perks that are so expensive to craft that by the time you're able to do anything with them you've definitely got the celestial portal repaired, and the only one that actually does anything instead of just being decoration is the monkey tail craft. Instead of choosing 15 different things, you're choosing "Which of these three branches do I not want?".

And it's not even like the branches are organized in such a way that it's doing what you say where you choose different playstyles. They're just completely random perks. If you want the super good armor perk you need to take a bunch of farming perks. It's not even choosing to go into the fighting branch or the farming branch, it's "Well I want the armor perk so I guess I'll take these useless irrelevant perks I won't use".

Im pretty sure you can skip the sapling parts without missing on anything.

Wormwood isn't really combat focused, having new ways to deal damage have a reason why they are on the top of some paths. It also feels like the character is progressing, Wormwood is probably a pacifist in the Constant, having a way to deal with enemies is probably the last thing he thinks about.

[Evelo]

10 hours ago, Kvetevk said:

For example: In a restaurant they wont give you 1 meal just for you to choose a type of seasoning, instead you should pick a meal that you like.

Yeah, you have all meals available to you, and you can season each one how you want. I don't see how this example aligns with your pov compared to mine.

10 hours ago, Kvetevk said:

Skill trees already add something intresting and they are secondary stuff, main stuff should be a base character without anything new (except theire personal items and mechanics).
I dont see how any of these promotes swapping characters, you could say  that about any mechanic each individual character has.

So Willow's magic is secondary stuff and not a now core identity of the character? Same with Wigfrid's spear, shield, and helmet. Or Wolfgang's Dumbbells, or Winona's structures portable? I would be surprised, and maybe I ought to make a poll to see, but who doesn't pick those things on those characters? They dramatically change the character that I just cannot conceive why they should be locked behind a skill tree as opposed to being baseline with the skill tree augmenting that stuff.

As for character swapping. It's niche, yes, but it is a balance thing I am concerned about and my disdain for the Celestial Portal as a whole. So probably shouldn't have brought that up since it isn't fully relevant to the topic.

10 hours ago, Kvetevk said:

Why should a skill tree only add buffs? Reason why skill trees exist, is that it gives you as the player ability to make your favorite character more seasoned. Imagine having 2 Womrwoods on the server and 1 is focused on farming and other is focused on fighting. By your logic both should be best at both but with a skill tree, they would be a bit better at 1 stuff. The drawbacks of choosing different skills would be gone, If a Wormwood player who got a choice  to upgrade his "base-kit" (but he would already have most of the stuff from the current skill tree) would always choose fighting skills to upgrade his fighting potential, because he has no need to buff already strong farming "base-kit".

My logic is both should have access to everything, then specialize in what they prefer. If Wormwood A wants to focus on fighting, they can! if Wormwood B wants to focus on farming upgrades available in the skill tree, they can! They all have the same tools, but which tools they want to upgrade is dependent on the player. If skill trees are only buffs, it does let you season your character in that aspect further than others. Both styles of skill trees allow for this. 

10 hours ago, Kvetevk said:

I want to know who would put points into drones if you could further upgrade circuits and chassis.

Well if there were more points to upgrade the Portable Storage Unit, I would because I find those kinds of things fun. Someone could want to upgrade the Zaptrocuter so it can be usable against things more than just birds, someone could upgrade the Robo-mapper to do some other things besides just revealing the map. Even the options of circuits and chassis could be expanded upon. There are endless possibilities with tuning a portion of the character's kit to fit a player's preferred playstyle with that character.

I feel like, and I am just judging based on what I am reading, could be wrong, feel like you just aren't opening your mind to the creative possibilities. Now I know you can go crazy too with adding stuff that isn't baseline and have it still be interesting, look at Walter for an example of this. It's almost certain my bias in that I prefer the kind of skill trees that don't lock reworks behind them, but instead let players have all tools available and specialize in what interests them about that character/class, which is why I advocate so heavily for that. I personally think it is better game design.

[Kvetevk]

24 minutes ago, Evelo said:

My logic is both should have access to everything, then specialize in what they prefer. If Wormwood A wants to focus on fighting, they can! if Wormwood B wants to focus on farming upgrades available in the skill tree, they can! They all have the same tools, but which tools they want to upgrade is dependent on the player. If skill trees are only buffs, it does let you season your character in that aspect further than others. Both styles of skill trees allow for this. 

Well if there were more points to upgrade the Portable Storage Unit, I would because I find those kinds of things fun. Someone could want to upgrade the Zaptrocuter so it can be usable against things more than just birds, someone could upgrade the Robo-mapper to do some other things besides just revealing the map. Even the options of circuits and chassis could be expanded upon. There are endless possibilities with tuning a portion of the character's kit to fit a player's preferred playstyle with that character.

I feel like, and I am just judging based on what I am reading, could be wrong, feel like you just aren't opening your mind to the creative possibilities. Now I know you can go crazy too with adding stuff that isn't baseline and have it still be interesting, look at Walter for an example of this. It's almost certain my bias in that I prefer the kind of skill trees that don't lock reworks behind them, but instead let players have all tools available and specialize in what interests them about that character/class, which is why I advocate so heavily for that. I personally think it is better game design.

Im not a Wormood player, I played him for a longer time but, I wouldnt call myself a Wormwood main.
But from what I can read, you are saying that some abilities should be basekit and skill tree should only upgrade them? Right?
Secondly Wormwood already have the choice to focus on fighting/farming, I will post pictures of a skill trees for both styles and you will tell me which is which.

1. Now tell me what do you think is wrong with the current skill trees?
2. How exacly would you implement your changes?
3. What skills would be basekit?
4. And at last, what kind of skills should be added instead of the ones we currently have?

This way I could maybe understand your way of thinking.

[Evelo]

3 hours ago, Kvetevk said:

Im not a Wormood player, I played him for a longer time but, I wouldnt call myself a Wormwood main.
But from what I can read, you are saying that some abilities should be basekit and skill tree should only upgrade them? Right?
Secondly Wormwood already have the choice to focus on fighting/farming, I will post pictures of a skill trees for both styles and you will tell me which is which.

1. Now tell me what do you think is wrong with the current skill trees?
2. How exacly would you implement your changes?
3. What skills would be basekit?
4. And at last, what kind of skills should be added instead of the ones we currently have?

This way I could maybe understand your way of thinking.

Left side focuses on combat: It has 2 combat abilities and 1 Neutral ability. (Sleep Shroom being combat, Bramble AoE being Combat, and Photosynthesis being neutral)
Right side is more farming (I guess? WW doesn't have skills to help with farming), and exploration (Namely only the Bee Kind trait). When I get into #2 & 3, just please understand, I am not the king of decision making, these are ideas and it is entirely up to Klei to come up with solutions. I fully believe in the quote, "Players are excellent at identifying problems, not coming up with solutions."

1. The plant crafting becomes worthless once they are created, demanding the player stick with the now useless skills, or utilize the Celestial Portal to swap off of them now that the number of crafting plants is fully utilized and provides no more bonuses. Outside of that, there is nothing inherently "wrong" with them, just a personal preference. I find it more fun to refine aspects of a kit to further ones playstyle, rather than unlocking new tools that fit said playstyle. Going to skip to #3 then back to #2.

3. Basekit skills I would have: All the plant crafting, Photo Synthesis, Moon Shroom Planting, Moon Shroom Cloud, Bramble Husk Specialist. However, I would nerf them slightly. Plant Crafting: Unchanged just Baseline; Moon Shroom Planting: Available to everyone baseline; Moon Shroom Cloud: Reduce Radius, Consuming the Moon Shroom causes Wormwood to become Groggy, Shorter Duration; Bramble Husk Specialist: Increase number of hits required to activate from 3 to 6.

2&4. So with a large chunk of the skill tree made baseline, there is room for new stuff. Forgive me I am not good at art, nor using a mouse to draw.

The Bottom row locks: Only one can be picked per section (similar to Woodie's transformation locks), Connected Locks: Only 1 can be picked once a player has 2 of the previous locks from any tree)
So Plants: L1: 25% chance to gather an extra resource from a plant (twigs, grass, reeds, Berries, etc) L2: 50%, L3: 100%, L4: Harvested Plants regrow faster.
M1: Crops have a 25% chance to drop an extra resource (Farming Plot crops), M2: 50%; M3: 100%; M4 Giant Crops no longer rot. 
R1: Lureplants placed by Wormwood digest slower; R2: Lureplants placed by Wormwood do not digest X, Y, or Z; R3: Lureplants placed by wormwood... whatever.
M5: Something? Maybe? Could be removed just throwing out some idea. "While Bloomed, Lureplants, Plants, and Crops drop a resource related to the plant (ie a grass would drop a grass, a grown corn would drop a corn, once with a cooldown of a few days or until harvested depending on the plant maybe idk that's a balance concern)"

Affinities stay the same, just add more stuff for variety sake.

I feel like with this type of system, players have a lot of choices, but few skill points, and have to invest in what part of the character interests them the most. For me for instance, I would focus on Bramble Traps within the Bramble Category, and Crops within the Plant category, while splashing a little bit into Moon Shroom or affinity. Depending on what is present. Currently we have pretty small skill trees with between 25-30 slots. So the specialization doesn't feel really, special since it is so easy to get everything players want. If we have skill trees, make them expansive, so players can focus heavily on one aspect they find most fun, or sprinkle around if they prefer a more generalized style. 

[NotGabriel]

Depends on the character. A character like Willow NEEDED their skill tree to be straight buffs, while a character like Wolfgang had room for more variety via coaching. (Although they should’ve done more for Wolfgang’s uniqueness factor imo)

in the case of WX I think they did a little bit of both strategies for them, the circuit system getting straight buffed was phenomenal, but they didn’t skimp out on introducing us new ways to play the character too with the drones and chassis. 

To answer the last question it’s 100% because the expectation was that WX would become a terminator, which is fine to have that opinion but I think the direction they’ve gone has been really solid, and I’m excited to see how release shapes up. (Also, people are sleeping on how awesome the Spin Cycle circuit is for combat, and it’s gonna get better!)

[Kvetevk]

6 hours ago, Evelo said:

Left side focuses on combat: It has 2 combat abilities and 1 Neutral ability. (Sleep Shroom being combat, Bramble AoE being Combat, and Photosynthesis being neutral)
Right side is more farming (I guess? WW doesn't have skills to help with farming), and exploration (Namely only the Bee Kind trait). When I get into #2 & 3, just please understand, I am not the king of decision making, these are ideas and it is entirely up to Klei to come up with solutions. I fully believe in the quote, "Players are excellent at identifying problems, not coming up with solutions."

1. The plant crafting becomes worthless once they are created, demanding the player stick with the now useless skills, or utilize the Celestial Portal to swap off of them now that the number of crafting plants is fully utilized and provides no more bonuses. Outside of that, there is nothing inherently "wrong" with them, just a personal preference. I find it more fun to refine aspects of a kit to further ones playstyle, rather than unlocking new tools that fit said playstyle. Going to skip to #3 then back to #2.

3. Basekit skills I would have: All the plant crafting, Photo Synthesis, Moon Shroom Planting, Moon Shroom Cloud, Bramble Husk Specialist. However, I would nerf them slightly. Plant Crafting: Unchanged just Baseline; Moon Shroom Planting: Available to everyone baseline; Moon Shroom Cloud: Reduce Radius, Consuming the Moon Shroom causes Wormwood to become Groggy, Shorter Duration; Bramble Husk Specialist: Increase number of hits required to activate from 3 to 6.

2&4. So with a large chunk of the skill tree made baseline, there is room for new stuff. Forgive me I am not good at art, nor using a mouse to draw.

The Bottom row locks: Only one can be picked per section (similar to Woodie's transformation locks), Connected Locks: Only 1 can be picked once a player has 2 of the previous locks from any tree)
So Plants: L1: 25% chance to gather an extra resource from a plant (twigs, grass, reeds, Berries, etc) L2: 50%, L3: 100%, L4: Harvested Plants regrow faster.
M1: Crops have a 25% chance to drop an extra resource (Farming Plot crops), M2: 50%; M3: 100%; M4 Giant Crops no longer rot. 
R1: Lureplants placed by Wormwood digest slower; R2: Lureplants placed by Wormwood do not digest X, Y, or Z; R3: Lureplants placed by wormwood... whatever.
M5: Something? Maybe? Could be removed just throwing out some idea. "While Bloomed, Lureplants, Plants, and Crops drop a resource related to the plant (ie a grass would drop a grass, a grown corn would drop a corn, once with a cooldown of a few days or until harvested depending on the plant maybe idk that's a balance concern)"

Affinities stay the same, just add more stuff for variety sake.

I feel like with this type of system, players have a lot of choices, but few skill points, and have to invest in what part of the character interests them the most. For me for instance, I would focus on Bramble Traps within the Bramble Category, and Crops within the Plant category, while splashing a little bit into Moon Shroom or affinity. Depending on what is present. Currently we have pretty small skill trees with between 25-30 slots. So the specialization doesn't feel really, special since it is so easy to get everything players want. If we have skill trees, make them expansive, so players can focus heavily on one aspect they find most fun, or sprinkle around if they prefer a more generalized style. 

This could actually work, but I have 2 problems with it.

1. The characters would be too good even without their skill tree, making some of their downsides feel like they don't exist + new players would be overwhelmed by the character abilities.

2. The skill tree itself would feel less rewarding due to not having anything special to offer, which sometimes isn't bad, but in this case, it wouldn't fit in a survival game where character progression is actually them coming up with new ways to use their abilities

Games like Skyrim have skill trees that only adds buffs, but the game is not focusing on the skill tree themselves, but rather the quests, playstyle and characters identity. DST skill trees shouldn't function like that, because from the lore standpoint, they wouldn't get all their abilities from start, they would need to develop to get them, like we are playing them to get insight, it's also called insight for a reason, having to understand the survivor to use theire newly acquired abilities.

Im not saying that it would be impossible to make skill trees that way, but it would take the identity and their progression as a survivor away.

[Evelo]

31 minutes ago, Kvetevk said:

DST skill trees shouldn't function like that, because from the lore standpoint, they wouldn't get all their abilities from start, they would need to develop to get them, like we are playing them to get insight, it's also called insight for a reason, having to understand the survivor to use theire newly acquired abilities.

Alright. While I don't agree because I think it is less fun personally. I can completely understand that from a design perspective and how that is what Klei is trying to evoke through the skill trees. Thanks for pointing that out, it makes total sense, definitely needed to hear that. Genuinely, thank you!

Stuff like this is why I wish Klei was open about their design philosophy. I don't have to agree, I just want to understand so I can accept it for what it is trying to be, rather than what I imagine it to be.