suggestion Could we have Misery Toadstool drop the Mushlight blueprint alongside its current loot?

[DegenerateFurry]

2 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Yes. I like the new Crab King fight, and I like the old Crab King fight, but they are completely different and have nothing in common with each-other. Had they not reworked Crab King and instead put in a similar amount of effort to making an entirely different boss, we could have had both fights. The old CK only needed a few tweaks to become a great fight so we could have two different fun fights instead of only one, but instead they undid all the work they did on it and just replaced him with a different boss.

Also, only 50% of people voted that it's better than the original. That's exactly half.

True. I was calling the rework well-received mostly because of how few people dislike it compared to how many people hated OG Crab King (only 17.5% actually dislike it, while 60% like it - 10% of those not having fought the original - and the remaining 22.5% don't have a strong opinion). 

I will agree that the boss is very, very different from OG Crab King (which is a good thing if you ask me), but it does preserve a lot of the same elements, just reimagined? The claws are still there, but now they attack you instead of your boat. The bubble attack is replaced by towers bursting through your boat and attacking your boat (also taking the role of the claws). His freeze attack is replaced with the ice island and barrier. His healing phase is literally unchanged except for having a brief wind-up where he shakes his claws and laughs at you after raising his barrier, and him having minions to defend him while he heals.

To me, it seems less like a replacement and more like... I guess the best way to put it would be an overhaul and major upgrade? I see OG Crab King as being like the original Spider Mastermind/Spiderdemon in DOOM, whereas new Crab King is more like the DOOM 2016 version of the boss. 

[Cheggf]

9 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

True. I was calling the rework well-received mostly because of how few people dislike it compared to how many people hated OG Crab King (only 17.5% actually dislike it, while 60% like it - 10% of those not having fought the original - and the remaining 22.5% don't have a strong opinion). 

I will agree that the boss is very, very different from OG Crab King (which is a good thing if you ask me), but it does preserve a lot of the same elements, just reimagined? The claws are still there, but now they attack you instead of your boat. The bubble attack is replaced by towers bursting through your boat and attacking your boat (also taking the role of the claws). His freeze attack is replaced with the ice island and barrier. His healing phase is literally unchanged except for having a brief wind-up where he shakes his claws and laughs at you after raising his barrier, and him having minions to defend him while he heals.

To me, it seems less like a replacement and more like... I guess the best way to put it would be an overhaul and major upgrade? I see OG Crab King as being like the original Spider Mastermind/Spiderdemon in DOOM, whereas new Crab King is more like the DOOM 2016 version of the boss. 

Just because he has the same amount of things doesn't mean they're similar. Nothing he has is anything like the old version. The claws attacking you instead of the boat is as different as it possibly could be, only the graphic remained. The towers permanently attacking your boat unless you destroy them is unidentifiable from the attack that you dodge by rowing your boat. Him freezing you being replaced with him changing the fight from a boat one to a land one is probably the single biggest change they could possibly do.

The only thing that's even slightly vaguely even kind of remotely similar if you squint enough is the healing phase, but even that has almost nothing in common with the previous version. He used to require up to 4 hits to cancel a single rock's worth of healing, and you needed to stop his healing because he was healing 650-1,150 health per rock. Now a single attack will always interrupt his healing, not that you need to, since he only restores 50 health per rock. It's not even a mechanic any more, you can completely ignore it. You do not actually do anything differently because he's healing, you just hit him because you want to hit him and as a bonus because you're doing that his very low heal that you could just outdamage anyways gets cancelled. In the previous fight you actually had to do something to stop him from healing, like freezing him. 

[DegenerateFurry]

Just now, Cheggf said:

Just because he has the same amount of things doesn't mean they're similar. Nothing he has is anything like the old version. The claws attacking you instead of the boat is as different as it possibly could be, only the graphic remained. The towers permanently attacking your boat unless you destroy them is unidentifiable from the attack that you dodge by rowing your boat. Him freezing you being replaced with him changing the fight from a boat one to a land one is probably the single biggest change they could possibly do.

The only thing that's even slightly vaguely even kind of remotely similar if you squint enough is the healing phase, but even that has almost nothing in common with the previous version. He used to require up to 4 hits to cancel a single rock's worth of healing, and you needed to stop his healing because he was healing 650-1,150 health per rock. Now a single attack will always interrupt his healing, not that you need to, since he only restores 50 health per rock. It's not even a mechanic any more, you can completely ignore it. You do not actually do anything differently because he's healing, you just hit him because you want to hit him and as a bonus because you're doing that his very low heal that you could just outdamage anyways gets cancelled. In the previous fight you actually had to do something to stop him from healing, like freezing him. 

I mean, the first time I fought him as Walter during the beta, he healed himself fully twice (I hadn't yet realized I had to dismount Woby to use the Weather Pain). It's not ignorable.

[Cheggf]

10 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I mean, the first time I fought him as Walter during the beta, he healed himself fully twice (I hadn't yet realized I had to dismount Woby to use the Weather Pain). It's not ignorable.

It takes him 5 minutes to heal from no health to full health, he only heals 40 HPS. He used to heal 542-958 HPS. He used to heal to full if you made a few mistakes, he now heals to full if you disengage from the fight completely for several minutes. Even if you're only using a ham bat as Wilson you deal 3.5x more damage per second than he heals per second. For every 3.5 seconds he spends healing uninterrupted, you undo it with 1 single second of attacking him. It is completely ignorable, especially considering the fact that the way you stop the healing is just attacking him. You already want to attack him, you hit him to kill him to end the fight. Whether or not he's healing is irrelevant, you want to hit him and that's the only thing you do to stop his healing. You do not freeze him. You do not bring weather vains to get a bunch of hits in. You do not bring followers to get a bunch of hits in. You just hit him like you already are and his healing is stopped.

[AliceShiki]

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

True. I was calling the rework well-received mostly because of how few people dislike it compared to how many people hated OG Crab King (only 17.5% actually dislike it, while 60% like it - 10% of those not having fought the original - and the remaining 22.5% don't have a strong opinion). 

I will agree that the boss is very, very different from OG Crab King (which is a good thing if you ask me), but it does preserve a lot of the same elements, just reimagined? The claws are still there, but now they attack you instead of your boat. The bubble attack is replaced by towers bursting through your boat and attacking your boat (also taking the role of the claws). His freeze attack is replaced with the ice island and barrier. His healing phase is literally unchanged except for having a brief wind-up where he shakes his claws and laughs at you after raising his barrier, and him having minions to defend him while he heals.

To me, it seems less like a replacement and more like... I guess the best way to put it would be an overhaul and major upgrade? I see OG Crab King as being like the original Spider Mastermind/Spiderdemon in DOOM, whereas new Crab King is more like the DOOM 2016 version of the boss. 

So, I haven't fought old Crab King at all, but I saw some videos and discussion about it, and from what I understood, what people liked about it was that it was a fight that was very much about positioning, pacing, and bringing the right tools with you.

There were some methods to cheese it (like the bees), but you could handle it with just a Ham Bat if you knew what you were doing. It required very tight positioning, good control over your boat, and a good understanding of the overall pace of the fight.

You needed to make sure only a few claws got hold of your boat so that you could escape the geyser, and you needed to row fast once you were free, and possibly bring some grass rafts with you in case your boat was going to break.

It seemed to be like a pretty unique fight, but one with a major flaw in that characters with a x1 damage multiplier could struggle really hard with killing the claws on time, so I remember fixing that being the main suggestion for trying to make the fight flow better.

Comparing that to what we have now... I dunno, I don't think it's similar at all? It doesn't really seem to be a fight primarily about correct boat placement anymore.

[DegenerateFurry]

2 hours ago, Cheggf said:

It takes him 5 minutes to heal from no health to full health, he only heals 40 HPS. He used to heal 542-958 HPS. He used to heal to full if you made a few mistakes, he now heals to full if you disengage from the fight completely for several minutes. Even if you're only using a ham bat as Wilson you deal 3.5x more damage per second than he heals per second. For every 3.5 seconds he spends healing uninterrupted, you undo it with 1 single second of attacking him. It is completely ignorable, especially considering the fact that the way you stop the healing is just attacking him. You already want to attack him, you hit him to kill him to end the fight. Whether or not he's healing is irrelevant, you want to hit him and that's the only thing you do to stop his healing. You do not freeze him. You do not bring weather vains to get a bunch of hits in. You do not bring followers to get a bunch of hits in. You just hit him like you already are and his healing is stopped.

He didn't get down to no health when he healed fully twice. He got down to the part where he summons the ice island and starts healing, basically undoing that part of the fight. I was using thulecite rounds as Walter with a royal jelly grip and the ruins slingshot frame, and the tentacles from the thulecite rounds were for some reason not spawning on him (apparently I have to precisely position the boat in order to make them spawn right on its edge or something). Point is, I did ignore it, and he did fully heal back from what I'd gotten him down to before the ice island despawned. 

10 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

So, I haven't fought old Crab King at all, but I saw some videos and discussion about it, and from what I understood, what people liked about it was that it was a fight that was very much about positioning, pacing, and bringing the right tools with you.

There were some methods to cheese it (like the bees), but you could handle it with just a Ham Bat if you knew what you were doing. It required very tight positioning, good control over your boat, and a good understanding of the overall pace of the fight.

You needed to make sure only a few claws got hold of your boat so that you could escape the geyser, and you needed to row fast once you were free, and possibly bring some grass rafts with you in case your boat was going to break.

It seemed to be like a pretty unique fight, but one with a major flaw in that characters with a x1 damage multiplier could struggle really hard with killing the claws on time, so I remember fixing that being the main suggestion for trying to make the fight flow better.

Comparing that to what we have now... I dunno, I don't think it's similar at all? It doesn't really seem to be a fight primarily about correct boat placement anymore.

I did fight old Crab King, and what people disliked about it was that it was extremely punishing (the smallest screw-up could sink your boat and he could also permanently stunlock you into being frozen if you weren't very careful about his freeze attack), dealing with the claws was too hard for characters without damage multipliers (like you mentioned), there was only really one viable gem setup (all purples) so that whole mechanic was wasted, there was too much for one player to comfortably manage at once (rowing or freezing him, fighting off claws, damaging Crab King, Weather Paining him so he wouldn't heal, repairing your boat, etc) and you didn't have much choice in how you approached the fight (you had to use specific tools unless you were doing bee cheese, pretty much). He was still less demanding and stressful than Fuelweaver like he is now (albeit with the gap being smaller), but he was pretty up there in unpleasantness for most players.

...but, that said, we probably shouldn't still be talking about Crab King in the Toadstool thread that's already had what needs to be said about Toadstool said. There's two other active Crab King threads - like this one. Maybe we just take the Crab King discussion there?

[Guille6785]

1 hour ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I was using thulecite rounds as Walter with a royal jelly grip and the ruins slingshot frame, and the tentacles from the thulecite rounds were for some reason not spawning on him (apparently I have to precisely position the boat in order to make them spawn right on its edge or something)

to be clear this is only for the first part of the fight (where it's just the towers and the cannons), once the ice phase starts the pond in the middle actually counts as land and the tentacles spawn in it normally

[WilsonHiggs]

8 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

I meant terraria-esque in the sense that the main focus of the fight is on dodging the attacks (e.g. a fight like nightmare werepig where the main gimmick is dodging his attacks vs fuelweaver where his attacks are easy to dodge but the main challenge is all the other mechanics), I know terraria is more bullet hell-ish, holy **** you do not need to write essays to tell me that I'm pedantically wrong when it was obvious what I was referring to (I guess I could've used the term souls-like although that isn't exactly accurate either)

Im not against having bosses like daywalker or sharkboi neither to have few bosses with stun mechanics to bring variety instead of making all bosses play like ANR but is true that klei tends to abuse one idea until boredoom.  Now all bosses are low hp (maybe is the reason why certain player like them...), simple, with knockback (most new enemies have knockback which is repetitive... but old bearger and treeguards havent) and very souls like.

There should be variety. ARN bosses felt like bosses for a sandbox with many hp so the player needs to use mechanics other than hambat and armor and they even have interesting uses for mechanics like sanity, using tools like axes or temperature. I like daywalker like bosses but seems like we arent going to get a interesting boss like toad, fuelweaver or klaus ever again

[kroban]

I agree, personally I can solo kill both versions, but just the thought of doing the entire "quest" and then spending 30 minutes to kill Misery, only so I can then spend MORE time for duping napsacks, makes me skip that fight entirely.

I think the boss will benefit a lot with some tweaks. Maybe keep Misery the same, but make the normal version easier to solo. Cave needs more "farmable" bosses, in surface theres like 10 different bosses with whom you could make a full rotation, while cave only has 2, Werepig and Fuelweaver.

If Klei makes normal Toadstool easier to kill many people will be incentivized to farm him for scales and blueprints, while Misery could stay as more of a "multiplayer kill" for the duping access. It would also help a lot of cave-basers, since they depend more on crafting lamps and have easier access to spores/lightbulbs.

Also I think Toadstool lamps are pretty balanced, like many already said here, if one truly wants "infinite light" they have to do the entire CC quest, kill it, and then decon the crown, and at that point in the game light stops being an issue, like literally, by the point the player is killing CC they can live with a permanent full moon. In slow-paced servers the lamps are used with light bulbs for the mayority of the run.