Speedrunners' suggestions for combat characters are valuable. Give them a chance.

[Xu XiuHong]

OK. I think this topic is safer, right?

Only talk about characters whose position is to fight. No other charactes' balance.

Speedrunners can use woomwood to speedrun, but none of us suggests that woomwood should be designed for speedrunning. We only talk about characters whose position is to fight.

Because the normal players who play fighting characters is very similar to speedrunners as they all focus on better combat and less resourse consumption. As a result, when speedrunners suggest that a character for fighting is weak for fighting, many normal players agree them.

 

[Guille6785]

If combat characters were rebalanced around their performance in the dual lanes (CC + FW) category specifically, a stupid category where your progress is hardcapped at the 1 hour and 26 minute mark by the moonstone event (and which the chinese community oddly focuses on as the gold standard for character strength), I would literally never play any of them again

P.S. I don't consider anyone who plays on small worlds while using mods to brute-force specific generations (while still somehow referring to that as running a “random map”) while also allowing the use of rollbacks mid-run to correct mistakes, to be “speedrunning”, because at that point you're no longer playing DST quickly, you're playing your own self-contained version of the game that is not what the other players are playing

[SilverSpoon]

You don't have to concern about that. Already Speedrunners' opinions are respected here.

It's true that some people don't respect the opinions of people they don't like, but please just report them and move on.

[Xu XiuHong]

2 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

You don't have to concern about that. Already Speedrunners' opinions are respected here.

Thank you. It's what I focus on. Speedrunners' opinions are not suitable for every player, but still have some value. They need to be respected. 

12 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

P.S. I don't consider anyone who plays on small worlds while using mods to brute-force specific generations (while still somehow referring to that as running a “random map”) while also allowing the use of rollbacks mid-run to correct mistakes, to be “speedrunning”, because at that point you're no longer playing DST quickly, you're playing your own self-contained version of the game that is not what the other players are playing

Yes. It's hard to say. After all, some very embarrassing things. We used to have a server serving speedrunning that banned native mods. But some bad guys opened the plug-in, causing the owner of the server to close the server very sad, because he had no way to stop it. Speedrunning through cheating is shameful.

There's one more thing that maybe only you can tell me. What does the potato cup do? I potato you means I love you.  But the potato cup seems to be expressing disapproval.

 

[_mylilsunshine_]

i was typing the response for your topic and didn't send it before it got locked, so here:

in DST, any character can be a combat character, it's just that some are more combat-oriented than others because of their design, like wigfrid and wolfgang because their designs are a warrior and a strong-man, respectively. again, any character can pick up a hambat, wear a log suit, and fight. any character can be pushed into the combat role if you want to. walter can fight just as well as a wilson, and even comparable to a wolfgang thanks to his range. my point is: we should not box characters into arbitrary roles like fighter, medic, farmer, etc. it's fun to imagine the game that way, but it's restricting and doesn't allow for creative thinking.

wendy can fight, but it shouldn't be that it's the only thing that she can do, or the thing that she can do best. if the discussions were about giving wendy and abigail more utility, support, survival, niche effect, usefulness, then i'm happy to hear it, happy to hear from speedrunners as well. if the discussions were about character power and how strong wendy is, how well can she & abigail fight, etc. then it's boring.

the game is a sandbox game, you can play however you like, but making every character combat-oriented doesn't help with that. i don't want to everyone to only talk about "fighting" or "power".

[Xu XiuHong]

24 minutes ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

i was typing the response for your topic and didn't send it before it got locked, so here:

in DST, any character can be a combat character, it's just that some are more combat-oriented than others because of their design, like wigfrid and wolfgang because their designs are a warrior and a strong-man, respectively. again, any character can pick up a hambat, wear a log suit, and fight. any character can be pushed into the combat role if you want to. walter can fight just as well as a wilson, and even comparable to a wolfgang thanks to his range. my point is: we should not box characters into arbitrary roles like fighter, medic, farmer, etc. it's fun to imagine the game that way, but it's restricting and doesn't allow for creative thinking.

wendy can fight, but it shouldn't be that it's the only thing that she can do, or the thing that she can do best. if the discussions were about giving wendy and abigail more utility, support, survival, niche effect, usefulness, then i'm happy to hear it, happy to hear from speedrunners as well. if the discussions were about character power and how strong wendy is, how well can she & abigail fight, etc. then it's boring.

the game is a sandbox game, you can play however you like, but making every character combat-oriented doesn't help with that. i don't want to everyone to only talk about "fighting" or "power".

很抱歉，我必须用中文。因为我现在时间不多了，并且想要及时回复。

我已经知道我们想法的不同了。请允许我使用一个比喻。在社会中，每个人有不同的分工。那么只要你不是单人玩DST，而是和朋友一起玩，那么各自的人就会有不同的工作。

这就是我不能赞同你的地方。DST的沙盒风格，应该取决于游戏中的其他东西，例如，天气，不同的群落。。。而不是取决于角色。

[_mylilsunshine_]

58 minutes ago, Xu XiuHong said:

很抱歉，我必须用中文。因为我现在时间不多了，并且想要及时回复。

我已经知道我们想法的不同了。请允许我使用一个比喻。在社会中，每个人有不同的分工。那么只要你不是单人玩DST，而是和朋友一起玩，那么各自的人就会有不同的工作。

这就是我不能赞同你的地方。DST的沙盒风格，应该取决于游戏中的其他东西，例如，天气，不同的群落。。。而不是取决于角色。

i hope i understand you correctly

yes, if you play multiplayer, then everyone will seemingly fulfill a role, or play the role that they want. and wendy player can push her to be the main combat character of the group.

so the question is, should wendy and abigail's power be buffed to fulfill that combat role?

my argument: before the skill tree, wendy & abigail was already good at combat, especially great in AoE situations. wendy can defeat every single boss in the game just like everyone else, without much difficulty like wes. she can always tame a beefalo to make fighting easier too. and after the skill tree released, i don't believe things have changed.

and i understand that not everyone likes to tame a beef or use a beef all the time. but again, wendy and abigail was fighting quite well before the skill tree.

and in multiplayer, the power argument is kind of redundant when everyone can just gang up on a boss and beat it with hambats and marble suits. again, any character can be a combat character. so in a 5-person team, instead of having 1 fighter 1 farmer 1 support etc, we can just have 5 fighters for a boss and go back to doing our roles.

i'm not answering the question above with 'should or 'should not', but rather discussing the understanding of roles and power

[Edible Coal]

im not sure what is the main topic now, people always have some respect for speed runners..

[Blue Tangerine]

5 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

If combat characters were rebalanced around their performance in the dual lanes (CC + FW) category specifically, a stupid category where your progress is hardcapped at the 1 hour and 26 minute mark by the moonstone event (and which the chinese community oddly focuses on as the gold standard for character strength), I would literally never play any of them again

P.S. I don't consider anyone who plays on small worlds while using mods to brute-force specific generations (while still somehow referring to that as running a “random map”) while also allowing the use of rollbacks mid-run to correct mistakes, to be “speedrunning”, because at that point you're no longer playing DST quickly, you're playing your own self-contained version of the game that is not what the other players are playing

Your viewpoint rests on a quite odd proof that "the Chinese community uses the time of the Moonstone event as a standard for the power of the characters", where did you get such information? I've never heard that before.

[Guille6785]

1 hour ago, Blue Tangerine said:

Your viewpoint rests on a quite odd proof that "the Chinese community uses the time of the Moonstone event as a standard for the power of the characters", where did you get such information? I've never heard that before.

I was referring to the dual lanes speedrun

[hyoton123]

TC (thread creator): absolutely freaking not.

[DegenerateFurry]

In theory, maybe, but too many of them are completely out-of-touch with what the game is actually like for the majority of the playerbase and have a very warped sense of balance because of it. Everything is too easy for them, so they want everything to be harder, even the stuff that's already hard enough for most of us.

[Walrusst]

I treat the ideas themselves like they have legs, not the posters. I genuinely try to ignore who said what.

[Guille6785]

17 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

In theory, maybe, but too many of them are completely out-of-touch with what the game is actually like for the majority of the playerbase and have a very warped sense of balance because of it. Everything is too easy for them, so they want everything to be harder, even the stuff that's already hard enough for most of us.

no one from the western speedrunning community thinks like this btw

[Echsrick]

4 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

no one from the western speedrunning community thinks like this btw

but it sure feels like it at times

[Guille6785]

8 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

but it sure feels like it at times

there is not a single speedrunner who wants the base game to become harder

[Echsrick]

1 hour ago, Guille6785 said:

there is not a single speedrunner who wants the base game to become harder

then it must be fake speedrunners

[Prinha]

I have been silently reading along. Large parts of the discussions are being posted in Asian letters which I don't understand at all so I can't comment on that.

I'm under the impression that the word "speedrunning" might mean different things to primary English speaking participants and those who are primarly speaking an Asian language. 

To be clear it seems that vocal members of the Chinese community consider their "fast food" servers to be "speed running" while to people from North America aswell as Europe this refers to somebody who tries to beat some or more aspects of the game as fast as possible solo and uploads proof of that in competition with others. There are different categories with all kinds of rules for all kinds of games. I guess a multiplayer "fast food" category could exist aswell but it's not traditionally the case in Western culture. 
I'm not saying that one is valid while the other is not just pointing out differences in culture/language that might lead to misunderstandings here.

The word respect strikes me as odd in this context. How would the respect or lack of respect even show itself?

And there  is also a vocal subset of players on this board who see DST as a hardcore uncompromising experience and want the game to be harder by reverting a lot of the quality of life changes that have been made to the game.

All viewpoints are valid. Naturally the perspectives of people who play the game very differently clash at times. For example the hardcore survival people tend to oppose the megabase decoration people. Speedrunners (in the Western sense) are usually people who simply play the game however it is including bugs, glitches and exploits. They typically don't care much about balance and use whatever is available and fastest. That's part of the appeal as I understand it.

[Cheggf]

1 hour ago, Echsrick said:

then it must be fake speedrunners

Can you show me the speedrunners who are advocating for the base game to become harder because it's too easy? 

[DegenerateFurry]

2 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

no one from the western speedrunning community thinks like this btw

I can name several who do. Go into any of the old Fuelweaver nerf threads and look at the people telling everyone "just git gud, look, here I am doing it no problem by frame-perfect animation cancelling every other hit with endgame gear". Those are the speedrunners not worth listening to.

[Guille6785]

3 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I can name several who do. Go into any of the old Fuelweaver nerf threads and look at the people telling everyone "just git gud, look, here I am doing it no problem by frame-perfect animation cancelling every other hit with endgame gear". Those are the speedrunners not worth listening to.

I have literally never seen a single post like this, please link one

I imagine you're talking about grm's posts, which not only weren't making the point you're strawmanning him as but he's not even a speedrunner

[_mylilsunshine_]

4 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I can name several who do. Go into any of the old Fuelweaver nerf threads and look at the people telling everyone "just git gud, look, here I am doing it no problem by frame-perfect animation cancelling every other hit with endgame gear". Those are the speedrunners not worth listening to.

i'm gonna be real with you, you need more substantial evidence to make such a claim on an entire community. not only do you not have the receipt, you also present a stupid point in hypothethical quote. not everyone who uses animation canceling is a speedrunner, anim cancel is just an advanced tech. if they're a speedrunner, why would they not demonstrate the FW kill with less gear? isn't that the focal point of speedrunning?

if these speedrunners are ever-present, then please show the time when they've been out of touch in recent updates, since old FW was quite a long time ago.

and how do you even recognize a speedrunner unless they deliberately tell you so? and unless they've made waves for themselves as speedrunners? do you just assume anyone who plays well is a speedrunner? do you just assume anyone who advocates for the game to be harder, is a speedrunner?

[Xu XiuHong]

4 hours ago, Prinha said:

I'm under the impression that the word "speedrunning" might mean different things to primary English speaking participants and those who are primarly speaking an Asian language. 

Yes, I found that too. Some of the discussion have no sense. I just made a wrong title. 

Fast-food-savement players like to play this game more quickly, this is the same as speedrunners, but they don't have a certain rules to compare. I mean Fast-food-savement is not a race(or match). 

10 hours ago, hyoton123 said:

TC (thread creator): absolutely freaking not.

？？？

[DegenerateFurry]

2 hours ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

i'm gonna be real with you, you need more substantial evidence to make such a claim on an entire community. not only do you not have the receipt, you also present a stupid point in hypothethical quote. not everyone who uses animation canceling is a speedrunner, anim cancel is just an advanced tech. if they're a speedrunner, why would they not demonstrate the FW kill with less gear? isn't that the focal point of speedrunning?

if these speedrunners are ever-present, then please show the time when they've been out of touch in recent updates, since old FW was quite a long time ago.

and how do you even recognize a speedrunner unless they deliberately tell you so? and unless they've made waves for themselves as speedrunners? do you just assume anyone who plays well is a speedrunner? do you just assume anyone who advocates for the game to be harder, is a speedrunner?

You're ignoring the context that I was talking to someone who was in those threads, albeit not one of the specific people I was referring to.

I'll admit that "speedrunner" is largely a nebulous term on my part, which many people use very differently. In this context, I'm using it to refer to the people who very regularly solo kill at least three raid bosses by day 30, animation cancel, and sink hundreds of hours into practicing every boss so they can perfectly exploit its AI to bypass and/or subvert the mechanics normal people struggle with. I call them "speedrunners" because their playstyle is all about doing stuff fast, but also because one of them here on this forum is legitimately an individual with a successful YouTube channel who makes guides on how to speedrun bosses, and has a very condescending attitude towards anyone who thinks any boss needs a nerf.

"Recent updates" is another nebulous term. If you want anything recent, that's gonna be hard since most of the discourse in this community as of late has been about the recent skill tree update, and Fuelweaver has come up very little. This forum has a search function - use it if you want to see the evidence. But, y'know what? Here. Here's some people who genuinely have that attitude - one of them literally says "git gud". 

[_mylilsunshine_]

6 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

You're ignoring the context that I was talking to someone who was in those threads, albeit not one of the specific people I was referring to.

I'll admit that "speedrunner" is largely a nebulous term on my part, which many people use very differently.

so what you're saying is, "speedrunner" in its exact term is not the one you're making claims about, "out of touch" and "wants everything harder." you have an issue with a specific type of players, and you pin that issue on another group of players. i hope i don't have to repeat myself again to for you to see how you were wrong/disingenuous.

10 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I'll admit that "speedrunner" is largely a nebulous term on my part, which many people use very differently. In this context, I'm using it to refer to the people who very regularly solo kill at least three raid bosses by day 30, animation cancel, and sink hundreds of hours into practicing every boss so they can perfectly exploit its AI to bypass and/or subvert the mechanics normal people struggle with. I call them "speedrunners" because their playstyle is all about doing stuff fast, but also because one of them here on this forum is legitimately an individual with a successful YouTube channel who makes guides on how to speedrun bosses, and has a very condescending attitude towards anyone who thinks any boss needs a nerf.

what you're referring to is an "elitist", people who play the game competitively and/or min-maxing and look down on others for playing casually. again, if you don't know how to exactly use a term /describe the type of players you have an issue with, don't use "speedrunner" as your blanket term and sling dirt at them, even unintentionally.

anyone can be an elitist, veteran players, speedrunners, even casual can act like an elitist. it's a mindset, not a playstyle. a speedrunner can be an elitist, but not every elitist is a speedrunner. and the playstyle that you're talking about is not speedrunning at all

about the person you're talking about, are they the representative of the speedrunning community? are they speaking for everyone? did they explicitly say that when they're voicing their opinion, they're speaking for everyone? because it looks to me like you're:

1. generalizing a group of player by using terms disingenuously

2. generalizing a group of players based on a single individual

17 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

"Recent updates" is another nebulous term. If you want anything recent, that's gonna be hard since most of the discourse in this community as of late has been about the recent skill tree update, and Fuelweaver has come up very little. This forum has a search function - use it if you want to see the evidence. Just look up threads about Fuelweaver needing a nerf, that'll be all the proof you need that these people do exist.

i'm gonna abandon my point on "recent updates" because frankly i don't care anymore. but when you, yes you want to accuse people of something, like "out of touch" and "wants everything harder", the burden of proof is on you, yes you, when you're called out.