Wendy skill tree request

[Catuna_]

Wendy's a character I really enjoy, however, the worst part about playing her has to be the amount of time it takes to gather mourning glories. Wendy is a grind-ier character than most, having to spend resources in order to keep Abigail alive. I obviously do not want this gone, as it's the fun of the character for me. However, mourning glory efficiency-related perks are rather costly. Even more so when you consider that:

1. you have to pick perks you potentially just don't want to get extra yield
2. there's plenty of new crafts that take a decent amount of mourning glory

Would it be possible to condense these a bit? Maybe ghastly experience could become base kit, or pipspook sidequests could just be made faster in her base kit... Anything would be rather nice, I do believe that hotfixes will still happen so I think that this is a nice time to ask for little adjustments like these.

The reasoning for this (I forgot to mention this) is, as demonstrated by the picture, picking both these branches just for genuine QoL of not having to grind mourning glories as much results in literally half your insight being eaten. This is not a very good thing to have when Wendy's affinity is split up into three perks meaning that you'd have a measly 5 insight to spend....

[Koomin]

If you just pick the pipspook quest ones they make pipspook quests ~6x quicker (I forget the actual number but it's somewhere around there).  You can do like half a day's worth of quests once and have enough mourning glory for a year, basically removing the "grind".  I think you are really over prioritizing mourning glory production if you are forcing yourself to take 7 entire points just for it.  You can just take the pipspook ones and be done for 3 points.

And if you really want, you can move graves to your base and make the quests basically free with 2 points.

[Well-met]

agreedf please rework wendys skill tree

[Evelo]

It's fine right now, just take the pipspook line.
Additionally you can choose where to place a graveyard so you have easy access to pipspooks.

Finally, if you combine it with docks, you can have a SUPER easy time mass farming mourning glories. Imo, just put in the little effort. It's perfectly fine right now. Combine with the fact you actually have to make choices for the skill tree. A skill tree requiring decision making? Amazing.

[SilverSpoon]

3 hours ago, Koomin said:

If you just pick the pipspook quest ones they make pipspook quests ~6x quicker (I forget the actual number but it's somewhere around there).  You can do like half a day's worth of quests once and have enough mourning glory for a year, basically removing the "grind".  I think you are really over prioritizing mourning glory production if you are forcing yourself to take 7 entire points just for it.  You can just take the pipspook ones and be done for 3 points.

Are you making balancing statements based on "I forget the actual number"? Where did that number come from?

---

I actually tested the numbers.

Premise
- For simplicity, uniformity, and randomization, I command-spawned Pipspook on the spot when the quest is completed. Also, SuperGodMode and FreeCrafting commands are used.

Pipspook quests I-III
1.20 Mourning Glory 2:17
2.20 Mourning Glory 3:11
3.20 Mourning Glory 1:55
4.18 Mourning Glory 2:17
5.20 Mourning Glory 2:42

None
1.6 Mourning Glory 1:22
2.7 Mourning Glory 1:30
3.6 Mourning Glory 1:50
4.6 Mourning Glory 2:07
5.6 Mourning Glory 1:15

Conclusion
-"~6x quicker" is definitely wrong.
-"You can do like half a day's worth of quests once and have enough mourning glory for a year, basically removing the "grind"." also really sus. Even not, I think whether 60 Mourning Glory = 20 high-grade potions will be enough for a year will vary greatly depending on the player's play style.
-Pipspook quests I narrows the distance between toys, but Pipspook quests II increases the number of toys, so overall time tends to increase.
-Taking Pipspook quests I-III, Toys may be able to spawn multiple together at the end. It will significantly reduce your time.
-DamnSpook seems to harbor malice towards the player, frequently throwing his toys across the river, in behind of overlapping trees, or into the scrapyard.

Impressions
One of the big problems with the current Wendy's skill tree is that Wendy's Mourning Glory-related skills act as a painkiller for the player against the Pipspook Quest Grind, so "Not taking Mourning Glory-related skills = How much the player can endure the pain of Grind = taking the skills is a prerequisite, and if you don't take them, it's not fun, painful." This is not a healthy skill tree, and skill trees should give variety to play styles and be fun to choose insight. I think it would have been better if Mourning Glory-related skills were not just for buff the Pipspook quest, but also for "increasing the ways to obtain Mourning Glory" and "allowing you to automatically farm Mourning Glory."

Spoiler

Evidence

 

[Koomin]

2 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

Are you making balancing statements based on "I forget the actual number"? Where did that number come from?

---

I actually tested the numbers.

Premise
- For simplicity, uniformity, and randomization, I command-spawned Pipspook on the spot when the quest is completed. Also, SuperGodMode and FreeCrafting commands are used.

Pipspook quests I-III
1.20 Mourning Glory 2:17
2.20 Mourning Glory 3:11
3.20 Mourning Glory 1:55
4.18 Mourning Glory 2:17
5.20 Mourning Glory 2:42

None
1.6 Mourning Glory 1:22
2.7 Mourning Glory 1:30
3.6 Mourning Glory 1:50
4.6 Mourning Glory 2:07
5.6 Mourning Glory 1:15

Conclusion
-"~6x quicker" is definitely wrong.
-"You can do like half a day's worth of quests once and have enough mourning glory for a year, basically removing the "grind"." also really sus. Even not, I think whether 60 Mourning Glory = 20 high-grade potions will be enough for a year will vary greatly depending on the player's play style.
-Pipspook quests I narrows the distance between toys, but Pipspook quests II increases the number of toys, so overall time tends to increase.
-Taking Pipspook quests I-III, Toys may be able to spawn multiple together at the end. It will significantly reduce your time.
-DamnSpook seems to harbor malice towards the player, frequently throwing his toys across the river, in behind of overlapping trees, or into the scrapyard.

Impressions
One of the big problems with the current Wendy's skill tree is that Wendy's Mourning Glory-related skills act as a painkiller for the player against the Pipspook Quest Grind, so "Not taking Mourning Glory-related skills = How much the player can endure the pain of Grind = taking the skills is a prerequisite, and if you don't take them, it's not fun, painful." This is not a healthy skill tree, and skill trees should give variety to play styles and be fun to choose insight. I think it would have been better if Mourning Glory-related skills were not just for buff the Pipspook quest, but also for "increasing the ways to obtain Mourning Glory" and "allowing you to automatically farm Mourning Glory."

  Hide contents

Evidence

 

The statement was from testing an unchanged skill like 2 months ago.  I don't memorize random statistics like this, but remembered the conclusion.  Off the top of my head I think it took ~4-5 minutes for me to complete 3 quests for just under 60 mg when I tested it.  I can test it again later, but I think your testing including taking around 3 minutes to do a single quest multiple times is indicative of pretty questionable methods.  Just checking, but are you aware you can usually just run in a circle shape and pick them all up?

[Koomin]

6 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

Are you making balancing statements based on "I forget the actual number"? Where did that number come from?

---

I actually tested the numbers.

Premise
- For simplicity, uniformity, and randomization, I command-spawned Pipspook on the spot when the quest is completed. Also, SuperGodMode and FreeCrafting commands are used.

Pipspook quests I-III
1.20 Mourning Glory 2:17
2.20 Mourning Glory 3:11
3.20 Mourning Glory 1:55
4.18 Mourning Glory 2:17
5.20 Mourning Glory 2:42

None
1.6 Mourning Glory 1:22
2.7 Mourning Glory 1:30
3.6 Mourning Glory 1:50
4.6 Mourning Glory 2:07
5.6 Mourning Glory 1:15

Conclusion
-"~6x quicker" is definitely wrong.
-"You can do like half a day's worth of quests once and have enough mourning glory for a year, basically removing the "grind"." also really sus. Even not, I think whether 60 Mourning Glory = 20 high-grade potions will be enough for a year will vary greatly depending on the player's play style.
-Pipspook quests I narrows the distance between toys, but Pipspook quests II increases the number of toys, so overall time tends to increase.
-Taking Pipspook quests I-III, Toys may be able to spawn multiple together at the end. It will significantly reduce your time.
-DamnSpook seems to harbor malice towards the player, frequently throwing his toys across the river, in behind of overlapping trees, or into the scrapyard.

Impressions
One of the big problems with the current Wendy's skill tree is that Wendy's Mourning Glory-related skills act as a painkiller for the player against the Pipspook Quest Grind, so "Not taking Mourning Glory-related skills = How much the player can endure the pain of Grind = taking the skills is a prerequisite, and if you don't take them, it's not fun, painful." This is not a healthy skill tree, and skill trees should give variety to play styles and be fun to choose insight. I think it would have been better if Mourning Glory-related skills were not just for buff the Pipspook quest, but also for "increasing the ways to obtain Mourning Glory" and "allowing you to automatically farm Mourning Glory."

  Reveal hidden contents

Evidence

3 hours ago, Koomin said:

The statement was from testing an unchanged skill like 2 months ago.  I don't memorize random statistics like this, but remembered the conclusion.  Off the top of my head I think it took ~4-5 minutes for me to complete 3 quests for just under 60 mg when I tested it.  I can test it again later, but I think your testing including taking around 3 minutes to do a single quest multiple times is indicative of pretty questionable methods.  Just checking, but are you aware you can usually just run in a circle shape and pick them all up?

Yea not sure what to tell you.  Just booted a random world and did some quests with all 3 points unlocked.  1:31, 1:54, 1:49, 1:34, 1:10.  Wasn't anything special and lost a few for a bit, but none took over 2 minutes.  There is a pattern to become familiar with, but it shouldn't take as long as you were mentioning.  Generation rate is super fast.

[Evelo]

7 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

This is not a healthy skill tree, and skill trees should give variety to play styles and be fun to choose insight.

That's just your opinion. I am of the opinion Skill trees are meant to incentivize difficult decision making for what you want to build. If gathering Mourning Glories is what matters most to you, grab the skills for it. If gathering isn't the most important then guess what, don't take it. WOW imagine that.

[YouKnowWho142]

I mean, I was only running the pipspook skills for elixir efficiency and I still had 20 of each elixir and 1-2 stacks of mourning glory at all times with almost no effort, if you really wanted to spam elixirs then using all 7 points seems really strong. Doing the pipspook quests just don’t bother me that much, I’m sure other people dislike it.

Perennial altar really should’ve produced mourning glories or something to satisfy people who like just gaining elixirs passively instead of actively, which I think would make everyone happy since it’d not only buff the otherwise uninteresting altar but also give a reason not to run pipspook quest in favor of a slower but free source of mourning glory, those who don’t like it can skip it and benefit from the active and faster method that others would find less interesting

[Pruinae]

I played Wendy for a good bit just now and the quests annoyed me greatly. They take long enough to be boring, and the pipspook will just keep looking at the toy not doing anything, so you have to zig zag on top of it for a few seconds until it notices it. Maybe I am doing something wrong, or lack some kind of knowledge since I don't play Wendy often (tips pls), but yeah it was painful. I wish the skills just let you skip the guessing where the toy is part, by just straight up letting you see where exactly they are; Along with basekit improving how the pipspook notices the toy you found.

Collecting critters to procc shadow Abi was another chore I wasn't fond of, if it wasn't for a Wortox getting a bunch easily with his knabsack I probably wouldn't have bothered, maybe it is worth the time spent getting critters if you're solo but it isn't FOR SURE in multiplayer, even as just a duo it probably isn't worth it (unless Wortox as previously stated ofc).

The garland REALLY needs to remember the elixir you put in it, swapping equipment frequently is an important aspect of this game. I do not bother with it after using its night vision to find ruins.

I really enjoyed the Abi commands, fear is OP in Klaus fight, controlling her positioning easily proved useful in a bunch of fights.

[kikia]

19 minutes ago, Pruinae said:

I played Wendy for a good bit just now and the quests annoyed me greatly. They take long enough to be boring, and the pipspook will just keep looking at the toy not doing anything, so you have to zig zag on top of it for a few seconds until it notices it. Maybe I am doing something wrong, or lack some kind of knowledge since I don't play Wendy often (tips pls), but yeah it was painful. I wish the skills just let you skip the guessing where the toy is part, by just straight up letting you see where exactly they are; Along with basekit improving how the pipspook notices the toy you found.

Collecting critters to procc shadow Abi was another chore I wasn't fond of, if it wasn't for a Wortox getting a bunch easily with his knabsack I probably wouldn't have bothered, maybe it is worth the time spent getting critters if you're solo but it isn't FOR SURE in multiplayer, even as just a duo it probably isn't worth it (unless Wortox as previously stated ofc).

The garland REALLY needs to remember the elixir you put in it, swapping equipment frequently is an important aspect of this game. I do not bother with it after using its night vision to find ruins.

I really enjoyed the Abi commands, fear is OP in Klaus fight, controlling her positioning easily proved useful in a bunch of fights.

When you're far from the toy, pipspook will give your a directional guidance. As Wendy moves closer to the toy, the halo above pipspook grows larger. If you notice the aura shrinking while moving in a particular direction, simply adjust your path. When the aura becomes notably strong in an area, circling around that spot should help locate the toys. Once found, stay near the toy so that pipspook won't be lost in thought. Hope this helps.

[Steorra]

3 hours ago, Evelo said:

to incentivize difficult decision

No. This tree completely failed to do this.

Go learn team spirit line by costing 3 points.

Go learn Shadow Sisterhood I and II by costing 2 points.

Build finished.

Any other thing do no impact to your build rofl.

[Catuna_]

4 hours ago, Evelo said:

That's just your opinion. I am of the opinion Skill trees are meant to incentivize difficult decision making for what you want to build. If gathering Mourning Glories is what matters most to you, grab the skills for it. If gathering isn't the most important then guess what, don't take it. WOW imagine that.

I feel like if there's tedium in a character's kit then that tedium should be alleviated a little bit without needing to sink that much insight into it... Base kit fixes is a part of why Walter's tree is so good and I feel like every character could use the same philosophy

[SilverSpoon]

10 hours ago, Koomin said:

Yea not sure what to tell you.  Just booted a random world and did some quests with all 3 points unlocked.  1:31, 1:54, 1:49, 1:34, 1:10.  Wasn't anything special and lost a few for a bit, but none took over 2 minutes.  There is a pattern to become familiar with, but it shouldn't take as long as you were mentioning.  Generation rate is super fast.

I didn't intentionally cut corners so I don't know... isn't that just my Skill Issue? I even provided picture evidence.

9 hours ago, Evelo said:

That's just your opinion. I am of the opinion Skill trees are meant to incentivize difficult decision making for what you want to build. If gathering Mourning Glories is what matters most to you, grab the skills for it. If gathering isn't the most important then guess what, don't take it. WOW imagine that.

I never say more than "my opinion". I have no authority to make Klei do what I asked and what I say is not always true. (but in reality, the mortals simply cannot recognize that the words from me as a transcendent being are the absolute truth...)

Gathering Mourning Glories is not a "matter", is a "problem".

In this game, you need to get food to avoid to starve, but there are many different approaches to this, and getting Wormwood's Mushroom Planter skill, Wurt's Shoddy Tool skill, or Walter's Forager skill are fun skills to get because they buff certain options and allow you to use fresh methods.

The only way to get Mourning Glory is through simple repetitive tasks, which in my opinion is a "Boring Grind". Wendy's current skill tree is just there to mitigate stress that even I don't want to play Wendy if without skill, and the consequences of "don't take it" as you say are "Painful". In my opinion, that's not good.

[SilverSpoon]

3 hours ago, Catuna_ said:

I feel like if there's tedium in a character's kit then that tedium should be alleviated a little bit without needing to sink that much insight into it... Base kit fixes is a part of why Walter's tree is so good and I feel like every character could use the same philosophy

EXACTLY. Walter's "99.9% completed" skill tree has made Walter's "Problem" of "Round production" much easier. On the contrary, Walter's base ability have been buff so that he can produce 10 -> 20 bullets with one material without any skills.
Back in the day, Walter had to spend 4+2 skill points to get Grind relief he has now, then Walter had similar problem that Mourning Glories has for Wendy.(Still, Walter is better off than Wendy, since the skill he needs to spend to get ammo skills is increase ammo variety. Imagine how bad it would be to have Walter's skill tree with loads of things like "increase ammo production by 10%")

That's what Wendy needs. I see no reason why Wendy, who has the same problem, doesn't deserve this. Giving Wendy more Grind relief would make everyone happier than Nerf Walter's Grind relief to Wendy level.

 

[Evelo]

9 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

The only way to get Mourning Glory is through simple repetitive tasks, which in my opinion is a "Boring Grind". Wendy's current skill tree is just there to mitigate stress that even I don't want to play Wendy if without skill, and the consequences of "don't take it" as you say are "Painful". In my opinion, that's not good.

given you go from 6/7 Mourning Glory to 20 per pipspook. You can move graves wherever you want, and you can make a dock system that allows for super easy gathering it isn't that bad at all. Additionally you can always do c_give("ghostflower",40)