There really should not be this inconsistency between skill trees

[DVGMedia]

I think it's really has shown with the discourse of this skill tree update  that there should be some sort of standard set for how a skill tree should be developed. 

One that is followed for each character weak or strong so that way there isn't this problem of factions being created to defend our loves for a character.  Because one is weak or one is strong 

Skill trees should be a rising tide that raises all ships equally not some more than others . 

I say this so that way we can learn from our mistakes from everything that's happened now and I hope that we're all able to enjoy and love this game as it continues to grow and not fight against each other because of what one character is given versus the other

 

Establishing a vision at least lets us the consumers know what to expect and thus we would be able to provide much healthier feedback. Especially since we are the ones engaged with beta testing.

[YouKnowWho142]

Wendy’s skill tree sets out to improve the playstyle of Wendy and it does just that very well. It doesn’t mean anything to just call the skill tree a mistake when it does what it sets out to do excellently (in my opinion, of course)

I don’t disagree with a clarification on the purpose of skill trees however, for some characters they’re a second refresh and others it’s important tweaks and quality of life so it would help to clarify why the skill trees exist 

[Cassielu]

They have been terrible at long-term planning for more than 1 year.

To be honest, it's scary to think how much the new skilltree has improved over the earlier skilltree, and how much will it increase by the end of it? Maybe Klei will do another round of character reworks, over and over, until the end of time.

[_mylilsunshine_]

i believe Klei kind of backed themselves into a corner with this skill tree direction and/or to some extent, character refresh.

design philosophy, experience, knowledge, feedback, each character has a different team working on them, etc. etc. there are a lot of variables and moving parts that make a skill tree good or bad.

wilson and wolfgang got the short-end of the skill tree stick with how early they got it, and the devs didn't quite know what to do with them. wigfrid is a mix-bag.

wormwood, wurt, willow, woody, winona all fell into the I>II>III perk progression that's just flavorless. although the last three characters got a decent skill tree as a whole.

etc.

a lot of the old tricks were used for wortox and wendy's trees, which clearly do not work.

i also hope moving forward every player will be satisfied with quality and flavorful skill trees/refreshes 

[Debruh]

3 minutes ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

i believe Klei kind of backed themselves into a corner with this skill tree direction and/or to some extent, character refresh.

design philosophy, experience, knowledge, feedback, each character has a different team working on them, etc. etc. there are a lot of variables and moving parts that make a skill tree good or bad.

wilson and wolfgang got the short-end of the skill tree stick with how early they got it, and the devs didn't quite know what to do with them. wigfrid is a mix-bag.

wormwood, wurt, willow, woody, winona all fell into the I>II>III perk progression that's just flavorless. although the last three characters got a decent skill tree as a whole.

etc.

a lot of the old tricks were used for wortox and wendy's trees, which clearly do not work.

i also hope moving forward every player will be satisfied with quality and flavorful skill trees/refreshes 

I think they should have refreshed the weaker characters before skill trees. And that the skill trees should have come out one after the other, with the onrs already done being subject to change. But eh.

[YouKnowWho142]

2 minutes ago, Debruh said:

I think they should have refreshed the weaker characters before skill trees. And that the skill trees should have come out one after the other, with the onrs already done being subject to change. But eh.

I personally think the healthiest direction for the game is for an update or updates to take a step back from adding new content and just refresh a ton of old content

[Debruh]

4 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

I personally think the healthiest direction for the game is for an update or updates to take a step back from adding new content and just refresh a ton of old content

Yup.

Personally, I also think it would be better if

1)Future, new and reworks, hazards and enemies took the characters and their abilities in mind rather than vice versa

2) That future updates with new content are made with character abilities, rather than characters waiting to be updated. Obviously this isn't realistic for many reasons, but eh, it's a dream. 

[DVGMedia]

2 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

I personally think the healthiest direction for the game is for an update or updates to take a step back from adding new content and just refresh a ton of old content

Yeah like maybe adding more to the oceans making cave biomes more interesting to explore  add in new survival mechanics that the player can engage with  alot of the rift content is very isolated 

[JoeW]

Yeah. I'm not getting into it all because we still have some things to discuss and decisions to be made. 

But there are a lot of really fair points here, and we're certainly concerned about it too. 

 

[YouKnowWho142]

Just now, DVGMedia said:

Yeah like maybe adding more to the oceans making cave biomes more interesting to explore  add in new survival mechanics that the player can engage with  alot of the rift content is very isolated 

It’s in a really awkward position because the rift content is obviously incomplete. They’re forced to choose to expand on a part of the game that is just not finished or work on the content that has been outdated for a long while and becoming more aged with the new changes made with the rift content in mind

Just now, JoeW said:

Yeah. I'm not getting into it all because we still have some things to discuss and decisions to be made. 

But there are a lot of really fair points here, and we're certainly concerned about it too. 

 

The transparency is very appreciated, I’ve been looking very much forward to the roadmap but Id understand if it couldn’t come with the update today

[JoeW]

3 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

The transparency is very appreciated, I’ve been looking very much forward to the roadmap but Id understand if it couldn’t come with the update today

There is a reason that the roadmap has taken as long as it has, and this is largely why. We have a path forward and it is discussed in the update post today. 

[_mylilsunshine_]

1 minute ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

It’s in a really awkward position because the rift content is obviously incomplete. They’re forced to choose to expand on a part of the game that is just not finished or work on the content that has been outdated for a long while and becoming more aged with the new changes made with the rift content in mind

yeah seeing how walter's affinity round can be crafted pre-rift by repeatedly beating an alignment boss made me wonder why was there not an equivalent lunar boss to get lunar rounds pre-rift? this disparity in base game content really highlights the low of walter lunar-alignment, which does not have an easy improvement because you need a new content that is not in the game yet.

honestly, while i'm immensely happy with a walter skill tree and walter&woby skins, i would have been equally happy with an expansion on rift content, ocean traveling, cave content, etc. anything that improves the overall experience and fills the game with things to do.

[Walrusst]

17 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

I personally think the healthiest direction for the game is for an update or updates to take a step back from adding new content and just refresh a ton of old content

Insight trees honestly do both simultaneously with the key unfortunate drawback that a few of the oldest ones could use refreshes.

Going to the main thread topic.
Honestly I'm starting to see it as its better to have a charactter be weak before getting a tree, because it lets you make more interesting multidimensional trees in the first place.

Do you counter their crippling aspects or build on your strengths? Do you develop previously unheard of abilities instead?

The economy is much more nuanced and interesting when you are starting from a shaky foundation. If you are strong with your downsides clearly being twisted to already be an advantage from the beginning, your skill tree is going to feel like a flop. Since like, if your downside would be listed as three or  more positive perks in Don't starve alone that isn't a downside its just a playstyle. You are just a strong character which just happens to not be flashy enough to get speedrunner cred. 

One of the hardest things is adding to something that already has game defining momentum.

 

 

So like, could we have refreshed characters prior to the skill trees to allow for more interesting trees? Sure but its the sort of nerfy refresh that would have made people RIOT.

[Hollow soul 3]

Would it be possible to do a mix? Maybe one or two new trees and a skill tree touch up? I think once the skill trees are finished up, and some touch up on old ones it could be a lot easier to add new content, while making some small tweaks to keep the balance. 

[WilsonHiggs]

They could lock certain perks from strong characters to a skill point like maxwell cage being an affinity point, which would lead to having more room adding variety of strong perks. For example choosing between the cage or another spell instead of no developing the second spell because the cage is already in the base kit.

If they dont want to take this route because some players might consider that they are nerfing characters, when isnt the case, just giving options. Then the skill trees should add fun stuff. I dont get the point of developing skill trees if for a strong character they do what was done to wolfgang: a skill tree with c&p of the same 5 passive perks that are split into 5 points... that isnt fun neithet make sense

[Walrusst]

The overall qualitative/redundancy reduction in recent skill trees has been excellent so thats the key thing I would love to see in the future tree resets for the others.
I've already said I would love for the woodie skills that aren't wereform to give lucy a more nuanced use as a tool (+Possibly making her a legitimate weapon for fighting plant type weapons for some variety,) same goes for the other characters who have three back to back identical skills with diminishing returns. (Or five.)

[WilsonHiggs]

6 minutes ago, Hollow soul 3 said:

Would it be possible to do a mix? Maybe one or two new trees and a skill tree touch up? I think once the skill trees are finished up, and some touch up on old ones it could be a lot easier to add new content, while making some small tweaks to keep the balance. 

I really hope to see changes to old skill trees. Woodie having skills being split into 3 points, wigfrid having unnecesary stuff like 5 planar defense and 4 points for beefalos that only 2 are useful once you tame a beefalo (and the saddle becomes useless once you unlock the planar saddle...), wormwood having like 6 points just for crafting plants, etc. Walter or willow skill tree is how they should approach skill trees

[YouKnowWho142]

12 minutes ago, Hollow soul 3 said:

Would it be possible to do a mix? Maybe one or two new trees and a skill tree touch up? I think once the skill trees are finished up, and some touch up on old ones it could be a lot easier to add new content, while making some small tweaks to keep the balance. 

I think skills trees could use touch-ups, but I do not think there is a single skill tree that is in need of anything too drastic like a rework. I think skills trees tree touchups should be more frequent but not a highlight of an update like actual debut skill trees

[DVGMedia]

Or how about just larger trees that encourage respeccing

9 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

I really hope to see changes to old skill trees. Woodie having skills being split into 3 points, wigfrid having unnecesary stuff like 5 planar defense and 4 points for beefalos that only 2 are useful once you tame a beefalo (and the saddle becomes useless once you unlock the planar saddle...), wormwood having like 6 points just for crafting plants, etc. Walteror willow skill tree is how they should approach skill trees

 

[Debruh]

6 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

I really hope to see changes to old skill trees. Woodie having skills being split into 3 points, wigfrid having unnecesary stuff like 5 planar defense and 4 points for beefalos that only 2 are useful once you tame a beefalo (and the saddle becomes useless once you unlock the planar saddle...), wormwood having like 6 points just for crafting plants, etc. Walter or willow skill tree is how they should approach skill trees

Especially the affinities.

Walter does the affinities so cool!

His affinitiy ammo is cool in the fact that it's locked behind progression, making you feel like you did advance post rifts. While the Woby is always active, making you feel like you did make a big decision on choosing who to side with.

Should be done with all characters imo. Something like Wendy did (her alignments have other problems imo so, not perfect) where one skill gives the through-all-game-upgrade while the other provides the mostly-postrifts-upgrafe. But have it two different branches rather than one whole line like Wendy's. 

[YouKnowWho142]

4 minutes ago, Debruh said:

Especially the affinities.

Walter does the affinities so cool!

His affinitiy ammo is cool in the fact that it's locked behind progression, making you feel like you did advance post rifts. While the Woby is always active, making you feel like you did make a big decision on choosing who to side with.

Should be done with all characters imo. Something like Wendy did (her alignments have other problems imo so, not perfect) where one skill gives the through-all-game-upgrade while the other provides the mostly-postrifts-upgrafe. But have it two different branches rather than one whole line like Wendy's. 

You can make pure horror rounds pre rift since you can make the shadow plinth with dreadstone and pure horror from werepig

I get what you’re saying though

[Debruh]

Just now, YouKnowWho142 said:

You can make pure horror rounds pre rift since you can make the shadow plinth with dreadstone and pure horror from werepig

Ik. But ichor/icker idk tbh, and the lunar ones are still post rifts. Pretty much all pure horror shadow alignments are like this, but I was too lazy to be specific. So I settled on just saying mostly.

 

7 minutes ago, Debruh said:

mostly-postrifts-upgrafe

'Upgrafe'

[Cassielu]

1 hour ago, JoeW said:

But there are a lot of really fair points here, and we're certainly concerned about it too. 

I guess that means... We will get the skilltrees of all the remaining characters in the next two updates?

But what about post-rift content?

[HowlVoid]

Wormwood's lunar sapling crafting would like to have a word.

Ive been saying this since the beginning because it happened during refreshes too. They start out simple and get more complex over time due to the lack of quality control.

I absolutely dreaded wormwood being one of the first and I personally feel like my fears were on the money. I mean, just look at Wolfgang. He has 2 skill branches with each, 5 skills, doing the same thing over and over and over again.

[Walrusst]

2 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Wormwood's lunar sapling crafting would like to have a word.

Ive been saying this since the beginning because it happened during refreshes too. They start out simple and get more complex over time due to the lack of quality control.

I absolutely dreaded wormwood being one of the first and I personally feel like my fears were on the money. I mean, just look at Wolfgang. He has 2 skill branches with each, 5 skills, doing the same thing over and over and over again.

I would love to  fuse the two berry skills because its dreadful that only one or the other is useful on any one world.