Wendy actually a bad glass cannon in boss combat and how to fix this

[DVGMedia]

It is nice to see people finally seeing what the roles for Wendy and Abby really are  have some really great discussions!

[Bumber64]

7 hours ago, Blue Tangerine said:

How could Webber's spiders be more fragile than Abigail? Nurse spiders can easily heal a large group of follower spiders, spitters and shard spiders can attack from a distance, not to mention that spiders can wear helmets.

They're subject to fear on certain bosses, which Abi is completely immune to. (I assume duelists are immune, but you can resummon regardless.) There are also some one-shot situations.

Helmets don't last and are prohibitively expensive for an army. (I've also called for nurses to be nerfed to heal over time.)

And getting back to the point, the fight doesn't end when they die. The followers are at worst gunpowder and you can solo the rest.

[GamePlayer42]

11 hours ago, Echsrick said:

its the litteral truth like what else do you want from me to answere to that?

yes its true but there are other way better forms of aoe that youve just completely ignored

[Echsrick]

2 minutes ago, GamePlayer42 said:

yes its true but there are other way better forms of aoe that youve just completely ignored

ok...tell me  then...is dumbbel throw realy that good? damagin? easy to just do? free to use day 1 instandly as you spawn in with infinity use?

[GamePlayer42]

1 hour ago, Echsrick said:

ok...tell me  then...is dumbbel throw realy that good? damagin? easy to just do? free to use day 1 instandly as you spawn in with infinity use?

The reason why dumbbells were even mentioned in the first place was to show how more and more characters are getting skills that are focussed on dealing with multiple grouped enemies. 

I am not saying that wolfgang's dumbbells are good, damaging, "easy to just do", free to us day one and infinite use

What I am saying is that Abigail's initial gimmick of dealing with crowds effectively is no longer unique to her, given the fact we have skills such as Winona's catapults, Wortox's soul pierce, Willow's Lunar fire raiser and even Walters Moonglass rounds which effectively match or even surpass abigail to a degree(as @YXukun brought up already) . Because of this wendy and abigail deserve an actual unique or new interaction to add to her I feel. As to what you can do, I am a big fan of unique sisturn interactions.

and even if some of these arent day 1 they are still really good and you can set all these aoe options up really early in the game anyway

[IAmAFurrz]

On 2/25/2025 at 2:18 AM, Cassielu said:

TS is not enough too make "Players make sure Abigail stays alive and benefits from it." work.

it does way more than you need. escape into unsummoning to heal abi up means as long as you are careful with her shes not gonna die

[Blue Tangerine]

7 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

They're subject to fear on certain bosses, which Abi is completely immune to. (I assume duelists are immune, but you can resummon regardless.) There are also some one-shot situations.

Helmets don't last and are prohibitively expensive for an army. (I've also called for nurses to be nerfed to heal over time.)

And getting back to the point, the fight doesn't end when they die. The followers are at worst gunpowder and you can solo the rest.

Nerfing nurse spiders? Wow that's bold

[Steorra]

8 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Helmets don't last

Go learn how to farm pure horror by using Void masked mobs, then you know what a fault thing you told here.

[Blue Tangerine]

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

Go learn how to farm pure horror by using Void masked mobs, then you know what a fault thing you told here.

In fact, the consumption of helmets is less than you think, because nurse spiders can quickly and greatly heal other spiders, you don't need to put a helmet on every spider.

[Bumber64]

5 hours ago, Steorra said:

Go learn how to farm pure horror by using Void masked mobs, then you know what a fault thing you told here.

Pointless post, completely disconnected from anybody's point. I thought you blocked me but I guess you can't help yourself. I don't need to engage with you.

4 hours ago, Blue Tangerine said:

In fact, the consumption of helmets is less than you think, because nurse spiders can quickly and greatly heal other spiders, you don't need to put a helmet on every spider.

You're absolutely just wasting them. Durability loss is proportional to damage. Shattered spiders have 250 health and football helmets 315 durability at 80%. So 2 fatal hits will break one, and it was probably an AoE (IIRC, the only type that can one-shot). It can be broken by non-fatal hits before then (e.g., non-bugged bearger stomp).

Nurses and spitters can't be one-shot (except CC?), so it's equally pointless to use armor to absorb damage that would be healed.

[Steorra]

15 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

completely disconnected from anybody's point

You did said helm for spider doesn't last.

And yes, I did ignored you. You know I could see your silly argument from other people's replies right?

Helm for spider doesn't last, but ignoring the 2100 duration void mask. You really love to share misinformations.

[Blue Tangerine]

10 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Pointless post, completely disconnected from anybody's point. I thought you blocked me but I guess you can't help yourself. I don't need to engage with you.

You're absolutely just wasting them. Durability loss is proportional to damage. Shattered spiders have 250 health and football helmets 315 durability at 80%. So 2 fatal hits will break one, and it was probably an AoE (IIRC, the only type that can one-shot). It can be broken by non-fatal hits before then (e.g., non-bugged bearger stomp).

Nurses and spitters can't be one-shot (except CC?), so it's equally pointless to use armor to absorb damage that would be healed.

No,my point is,if you don't have enough helmets, you could only give helmets to nurse spiders.Helmets help them to live longer in battles(except against dragonfly),so they could heal others and save a lot of helmets for you. Rangers like shattered spiders and spitters are less likely to be harmed since frequent hits can stun enemies.

[Bumber64]

8 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Helm for spider doesn't last, but ignoring the 2100 duration void mask. You really love to share misinformations.

I'm sure the post-rifts, non-planar, 20% helm will be of great help. Too funny.

8 minutes ago, Blue Tangerine said:

No,my point is,if you don't have enough helmets, you could only give helmets to nurse spiders.

Nurse spiders have the highest health and heal each other. They need it least of all.

[Steorra]

2 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

I'm sure the post-rifts, non-planar, 20% helm will be of great help. Too funny.

You must never heard about some Webber mains said "cutter cap is the best for spiders" before void masks came out.

[DVGMedia]

I think it's important to say why Wendy is a glass cannon instead of summoners at least in the case in how minion characters and other minion based characters act.

The two genuine summoners are probably maxell and willow. Maxwell having weak disposable summonings with the duelists while willow has one big tanky one in Bernie. 

People don't want to increase Abby's tank because then they compare her to Bernie. Abby has much more DPS than Bernie does especially in groups. And since refresh she no longer is just a summon Wendy can spam with multiple flowers. 

 

So what is Wendy and Abby now?  Against normal mobs she is still pretty much the same  while against boss creatures she is a glass cannon  because against these types of creatures Wendy needs to focus on keeping Abby alive to ensure that she can maximize her damage multiplier.  Since this multiplier only really comes to play against bosses

 

So in the main 2 combat situations in the game Wendy and Abby play completely differently.  Which is something no other combat character has. This is why it's so hard to really make something for her because now need to make one thing for 2 characters effectively 

[YouKnowWho142]

3 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

I think it's important to say why Wendy is a glass cannon instead of summoners at least in the case in how minion characters and other minion based characters act.

The two genuine summoners are probably maxell and willow. Maxwell having weak disposable summonings with the duelists while willow has one big tanky one in Bernie. 

People don't want to increase Abby's tank because then they compare her to Bernie. Abby has much more DPS than Bernie does especially in groups. And since refresh she no longer is just a summon Wendy can spam with multiple flowers. 

Glass cannon is defined by a character with strong offensive abilities but weak defensive abilities. Abigail in her current state is quite disposable especially since it can take less than 30 seconds to bring her back to level 3 and full hp from death. Her commands give her survivability and Sisturn 3 makes Abigail properly quite tanky (600 hp is 150 effective hp less than football helm on Wilson or Wendy herself) as long as you're not letting her take every hit, which is discouraged but can easily be corrected. Proper glass cannons are punished with death, but this isn't apparent with Abigail since Wendy herself fights fine and Abigail can easily respawn as if nothing happened. Wendy herself is far from a glass cannon as you've mentioned, but this is what the main thread claimed. By your logic, Maxwell is closer to a glass cannon than Wendy and Abigail is, as he is highly susceptible to burst damage even with armor and requires involvement in the fight for max potential despite his low hp.

[goblinball]

On 2/25/2025 at 11:53 AM, Steorra said:

Explanation about the sarcasm above - to use your own personal standards for judging is silly behaviour. When you using your own standard of "CC III is the only boss which is not viable for Abby" to judge others, let me tell you for me your standard is just a "skill issue".

You say this like this is a bad thing

theres nothing wrong with characters having high skill ceilings

in fact I’m pretty sure that’s a good thing

[DVGMedia]

5 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

Glass cannon is defined by a character with strong offensive abilities but weak defensive abilities. Abigail in her current state is quite disposable especially since it can take less than 30 seconds to bring her back to level 3 and full hp from death. Her commands give her survivability and Sisturn 3 makes Abigail properly quite tanky (600 hp is 150 effective hp less than football helm on Wilson or Wendy herself) as long as you're not letting her take every hit, which is discouraged but can easily be corrected. Proper glass cannons are punished with death, but this isn't apparent with Abigail since Wendy herself fights fine and Abigail can easily respawn as if nothing happened. Wendy herself is far from a glass cannon as you've mentioned, but this is what the main thread claimed. By your logic, Maxwell is closer to a glass cannon than Wendy and Abigail is, as he is highly susceptible to burst damage even with armor and requires involvement in the fight for max potential despite his low hp.

But each of those characters have methods to reduce their weakness  the characters considered glass cannons have methods of reducing the damage they take by either using tools in the game or their own tools. Beefalos for Maxwell and also shadow armor immunity. That and Maxwell requires certain equipment  in order for his summons to do max damage normally  pretty bad to have equiped but causes no problems while on a beef

And for Wanda she is inherently safer in combat thanks to her bonus range and invincibility  frames despite her maximum requiring to be at 37 HP 

 

These are two glass cannon character's in the default sense of the term however Wendy does fit that with Abby since other than Wendy's own tools of healing or commands Abby is weak and if Wendy doesn't intervene Abby will die on most bosses

[YouKnowWho142]

Just now, DVGMedia said:

These are two glass cannon character's in the default sense of the term however Wendy does fit that with Abby since other than Wendy's own tools of healing or commands Abby is weak and if Wendy doesn't intervene Abby will die on most bosses

“If you don’t use the tools provided to you to keep your character alive they will die”

what?

[DVGMedia]

1 minute ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

“If you don’t use the tools provided to you to keep your character alive they will die”

what?

If you look at Wendy and Maxwell given the same tools  Wendys power is more fragile than Maxwell's 

[YouKnowWho142]

2 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

If you look at Wendy and Maxwell given the same tools  Wendys power is more fragile than Maxwell's 

That doesn't make her a glass cannon though, that's my point. You should be expected to keep Abigail alive as you fight, and you're rewarded for that. Abigail herself has all the tools you need, and if you're careful she can take thousands of damage before going down (or even easier, avoiding it outright), which does not seem like a glass cannon to me

[DVGMedia]

5 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

That doesn't make her a glass cannon though, that's my point. You should be expected to keep Abigail alive as you fight, and you're rewarded for that. Abigail herself has all the tools you need, and if you're careful she can take thousands of damage before going down, which does not seem like a glass cannon to me

Yes it does though in every sense she is a glass summoner only against bosses though  like if you look at it all the things that make Wendy strong they are anti tank beefalo are not that great at tanking  and the only reason it works well is because she gets more DPS from Abby 

[Steorra]

15 minutes ago, goblinball said:

You say this like this is a bad thing

theres nothing wrong with characters having high skill ceilings

in fact I’m pretty sure that’s a good thing

To use "skill issue" or different skill level for looking down at others is a bad thing.

Quite weird if someone playing video game would make them feeling "I have superior" to look down other players.

Or, you do accept that to be look down by those who have higher skill level than you?

5 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

and if you're careful she can take thousands of damage before going down (or even easier, avoiding it outright)

Sounds Abby was pretty tanky in this logic. And it seems works fine for Walter and Maxwell as well. So, at least Maxwell is not a glass cannon. (I don't bring Walter here because Walter have no cannon. He was only Glass maded.)

[YouKnowWho142]

1 minute ago, DVGMedia said:

only against bosses though 

... so she's not a glass cannon. A true glass cannon is rewarded for being put in dangerous situations despite their low survivability, yet in my boss rush she has consistently stayed alive for every fight even despite taking well over 1000+ damage in some instances. She's punished as much for getting hit as any other character, except the difference is that her mobility is at times better and if she dies you just instantly summon her again.

If you only considered Abigail to be frail at times then that's more agreeable, a character can be frail and do more damage without also being a glass cannon

[DVGMedia]

4 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

... so she's not a glass cannon. A true glass cannon is rewarded for being put in dangerous situations despite their low survivability, yet in my boss rush she has consistently stayed alive for every fight even despite taking well over 1000+ damage in some instances. She's punished as much for getting hit as any other character, except the difference is that her mobility is at times better and if she dies you just instantly summon her again.

Well that is just one yeah what was it you did? Did you make the preparations to ensure she doesn't? Would make sense right? But without wouldn't she struggle?  Doesn't she get out in a lot of dangerous situations where if you as Wendy dint intervene she would have died