Twine Twirler could use a second ability

[ArcAngela]

Twine Twirler right now sits in a weird spot where some players will find it useless and others will consider it a must-take.

This skill is very powerful, but that's all... Just a simple "swap to Woodie Walter", mass craft Ropes, swap the skill back. I've seen many people not even give it attention since it's competing with so many other great perks in the Scouting category. It doesn't become any more useful depending on playstyle, doesn't exactly synergize with anything if it's technically synergizing with "everything that has a rope cost".
Even then, it's still pretty strong, it converts a full stack of grass into 20 ropes, instead of 13. But you take this skill because it's overall strong, and nothing else.

I think Twine Twirler needs a second ability to truly compete or at least offer something more interesting and dynamic to approach than just a recipe. Every other "recipe skill" in the Scouting category is dynamic;

Flutter Strip comes with a healing buff, synergizes with team players.
Portable Campfire comes with a story-telling buff, synergizes with both team players and nomad playstyles.
Woby Snacks synergize with Rack and Roll and become a must-have depending on mounted playstyles.

So consulting my friend who was an Eagle Scout, I propose this to be added to the skill:

Walter also learns to craft a Makeshift Tourniquet (obviously involving Rope).
It can be used on himself or other survivors to treat Max Health Penalty, like a booster shot alternative.
Walter can use it on himself any time while hurt, using on self will pause the passive sanity drain from not being at full health for a day.

It's not the best idea, but I can see a lot of combat-centered and team-centered playstyles putting this to great use, or even newer players who struggle finding healing options.

An adjustment to this perk is very small priority, but I felt like this would be good to discuss and maybe share different ideas on what to do until we land on a promising second ability to this skill.

[_mylilsunshine_]

1 hour ago, ArcAngela said:

-snip-

honestly i'm always blown away at how creative walter's players/suggestions are. i love the thought that twine twirler should do something more, and i love the idea of a tourniquet. it's good enough to be implemented, but also niche enough to keep the skill balanced.

i don't see myself using the tourniquet, nor will i take the skill to have it, but i can definitely see how people would use it in multiplayer. the booster shot craft is rather unknown/unpopular, the tournique might introduce the "max HP" feature to new players. and for waltuh players who cannot heal fast enough to combat the sanity drain, it can be useful in that situation as well (not that it would really matter with how busted gland/flutter healing can be, maybe it would be good in the cave/on the ocean)

[Mysterious box]

Personally I think it's fine as is since it unlocks the rope recipe without learning it, increases the crafting speed of ropes, and lowers the cost of ropes which plays very well into making drying racks lowering the cost per craft by an entire rope for example. That being said I like how creative the idea is and wouldn't be against it if you feel it needs a little more incentive.

Edit: Another neat thing you can do is since this skill unlocks ropes is you can make portable campfires in a scienceless run though that is a very niche advantage.

[efgi]

I think it should just grant prototypes to a few other rope related crafts. In particular, being ablr to craft the deployable tent without need for a science machine or alchemy engine would be a great synergy.

[GimplyGoose]

I find a lot of value in the twine twirler skill as is. You get 50% more rope per grass with the skill and I find that I'm constantly crafting rope throughout almost any playthrough. It has the other benefit of the faster crafting animation which is super nice if you are bulk crafting.

Twine twirler is probably in my top 5 skill picks for Walter as is (1-ammo smith, 2-shattering rounds, 3-advanced grips, 4-advanced frames, 5-twine twirler).

Personally, I would drop every other scouting section skill before twine twirler.

[ArcAngela]

56 minutes ago, GimplyGoose said:

Personally, I would drop every other scouting section skill before twine twirler.

Nobody said to drop the cheaper rope recipe. I said add to it.

Also it's a 33% increase, but percentages really don't matter in this case, it's still strong.

[efgi]

10 minutes ago, ArcAngela said:

Nobody said to drop the cheaper rope recipe. I said add to it.

Also it's a 33% increase, but percentages really don't matter in this case, it's still strong.

I think what they were saying is that if they had to choose between keeping twine twirler or another scouting skill, they'd prefer to keep twine twirler.

 

The product increases by 50%, the cost reduces by 33%. 6 grass yields 3 rope instead of 2, for example. 3/2 = 150%, or a 50% increase.

[GimplyGoose]

1 hour ago, ArcAngela said:

Nobody said to drop the cheaper rope recipe. I said add to it.

Also it's a 33% increase, but percentages really don't matter in this case, it's still strong.

I guess the point in trying to make is that if I'm playing Walter, I'm probably taking twine twirler as is. I don't think it needs any additional stuff tacked on.

Personally, if further changes were introduced, I would rather see them added to Pioneer's Panache, which I consider the least desirable scouting skill.

Other players may value other skills more than twine tttwirlernd I think that's fine.

[Dr. Safety]

21 hours ago, efgi said:

I think it should just grant prototypes to a few other rope related crafts. In particular, being ablr to craft the deployable tent without need for a science machine or alchemy engine would be a great synergy.

This would be my ideal secondary effect. When I first tried the new Walter skill tree, I got excited when I realized that you didn't need to prototype rope as Walter, but then disappointed when I realized that it only helps you craft 1 or 2 functional items earlier than you would have

[efgi]

I refreshed my memory on the crafts that rope is used for, and came up with a list of prospective prototypes to granted with this skill. There could be a case for considering this tweak on an item-by-item basis, or for reducing Walter's science level for all rope related crafts by 1 (all science 1 crafts unlocked immediately, science 2 available with science 1). Flavor-wise, tents and drying racks are the best fit, with bug net, tooth trap, and bush hat also fitting nicely. 

Also note that the portable campfire pairs well with twine twirler, essentially giving Walter a portable placeable light source as soon as he finds a handful of rocks.

Here are rope recipies that do not require other refined materials:

Bug net. Requires silk and twigs, seems sensible enough to skip the prototype with this skill and scouty enough to justify.

Lantern. Requires twigs and light bulbs. Probably shouldn't skip prototyping entirely, but allowing walter to prototype it at a science machine instead of an alchemy engine might be a suitable boost.

Spear. Requires twigs and flint. Probably don't want to skip this one unless the prototype boost is maximal. Not exactly scouty.

Tooth trap. Requires logs and hounds teeth. Seems scouty enough to justify, but it's level 2 science. Reducing to level 1 would be a better approach.

Log Suit, Marble Suit, Football Helmet, and Cookie Cutter Cap. Require specific non-refined materials, but these aren't particularly scouty and are pretty key to progression so should probably be unaffected.

Luxury fan. Requires reeds and down feathers, science 2. Not on brand, but could fit for reduction to science 1. Wouldn't meaningfulky impact progression because most plays have science 2 before they can get down feathers.

Beekeeper hat. Made of rope and silk, science 2. Would make sense Walter has plans related to his allergy. Maybe another science 1 tweak.

Bush hat. Requires grass hat and a bush. Seems rather scouty and suitable to be granted outright, but since it's science 2 it's a bit of a stretch. Not typically seen as a key item, so that stretch wouldn't hurt anything.

Raincoat, Summer Frest, Hibearnation vest. Require specific unrefined materials. Off-brand for our fashion ambivalent scout, although these are weather protective. Could fit a drop to science 1, but not meaningfully impactful since science 2 is usually available before these materials are needed or the conditions for their use arise.

Straw roll and Camper's Tent. Require grass and twigs. Best case for prototype to unlocked with this skill. Walter's signature craft and one of its inputs. 

Tent. Requires silk and twigs. Totally on brand other than camper's tent outclassing it. Could be granted outright by the skill without impacting progression, but moving to science 1 would also fit.

*Siesta Lean-to. Requires boards and silk. Technically requires a refined craft, but boards can be scavenged. Fits with Walter's camping aptitude. Move to science 1 is the best fit.

Drying Rack. Requires twigs and charcoal. Great fit for scouting, Walter obviously has an affinity with this structure. Would make sense, but there could also be a case made for associating this with Woby's portable drying rack.

Fence. Requires twigs. Not very impactful, but might be nice to grant with twine twirler to demonstrate proficiency with using rope rather than just making it. Needs gate to be very helpful, which requires boards and science 2. Boosting gate to be available with science 1 would pair nicely.

Piggback. Requires silk and pig skin. Not a good fit, keep as is unless really maximizing the skilled with rope theme for all rope related crafts.

 

Along the way, I also spotted that with this skill, rope has a slight advantage as a fuel source, since it grants 45 seconds of light using grass with an equivalent cost of 30 seconds of light. Is grass harvested by Woby with the gathering skill so that you can make one rope from a single grass tuft?

[Cheggf]

50% more rope which gets crafted hyperspeed is one of his best perks. 

[BrixGoBrrr]

2 hours ago, efgi said:

I refreshed my memory on the crafts that rope is used for, and came up with a list of prospective prototypes to granted with this skill. There could be a case for considering this tweak on an item-by-item basis, or for reducing Walter's science level for all rope related crafts by 1 (all science 1 crafts unlocked immediately, science 2 available with science 1). Flavor-wise, tents and drying racks are the best fit, with bug net, tooth trap, and bush hat also fitting nicely. 

Also note that the portable campfire pairs well with twine twirler, essentially giving Walter a portable placeable light source as soon as he finds a handful of rocks.

Here are rope recipies that do not require other refined materials:

Bug net. Requires silk and twigs, seems sensible enough to skip the prototype with this skill and scouty enough to justify.

Lantern. Requires twigs and light bulbs. Probably shouldn't skip prototyping entirely, but allowing walter to prototype it at a science machine instead of an alchemy engine might be a suitable boost.

Spear. Requires twigs and flint. Probably don't want to skip this one unless the prototype boost is maximal. Not exactly scouty.

Tooth trap. Requires logs and hounds teeth. Seems scouty enough to justify, but it's level 2 science. Reducing to level 1 would be a better approach.

Log Suit, Marble Suit, Football Helmet, and Cookie Cutter Cap. Require specific non-refined materials, but these aren't particularly scouty and are pretty key to progression so should probably be unaffected.

Luxury fan. Requires reeds and down feathers, science 2. Not on brand, but could fit for reduction to science 1. Wouldn't meaningfulky impact progression because most plays have science 2 before they can get down feathers.

Beekeeper hat. Made of rope and silk, science 2. Would make sense Walter has plans related to his allergy. Maybe another science 1 tweak.

Bush hat. Requires grass hat and a bush. Seems rather scouty and suitable to be granted outright, but since it's science 2 it's a bit of a stretch. Not typically seen as a key item, so that stretch wouldn't hurt anything.

Raincoat, Summer Frest, Hibearnation vest. Require specific unrefined materials. Off-brand for our fashion ambivalent scout, although these are weather protective. Could fit a drop to science 1, but not meaningfully impactful since science 2 is usually available before these materials are needed or the conditions for their use arise.

Straw roll and Camper's Tent. Require grass and twigs. Best case for prototype to unlocked with this skill. Walter's signature craft and one of its inputs. 

Tent. Requires silk and twigs. Totally on brand other than camper's tent outclassing it. Could be granted outright by the skill without impacting progression, but moving to science 1 would also fit.

*Siesta Lean-to. Requires boards and silk. Technically requires a refined craft, but boards can be scavenged. Fits with Walter's camping aptitude. Move to science 1 is the best fit.

Drying Rack. Requires twigs and charcoal. Great fit for scouting, Walter obviously has an affinity with this structure. Would make sense, but there could also be a case made for associating this with Woby's portable drying rack.

Fence. Requires twigs. Not very impactful, but might be nice to grant with twine twirler to demonstrate proficiency with using rope rather than just making it. Needs gate to be very helpful, which requires boards and science 2. Boosting gate to be available with science 1 would pair nicely.

Piggback. Requires silk and pig skin. Not a good fit, keep as is unless really maximizing the skilled with rope theme for all rope related crafts.

 

Along the way, I also spotted that with this skill, rope has a slight advantage as a fuel source, since it grants 45 seconds of light using grass with an equivalent cost of 30 seconds of light. Is grass harvested by Woby with the gathering skill so that you can make one rope from a single grass tuft?

Thank you for making this list! the early Bug Net fits Walter's love of bugs so so nicely, and is a nice lil boost toward the Miner Hat 

[Bumber64]

2 hours ago, efgi said:

Is grass harvested by Woby with the gathering skill so that you can make one rope from a single grass tuft?

No, food only.

[efgi]

1 hour ago, Bumber64 said:

No, food only.

Dang, guess that makes it easier for me to pick my Woby skills when I am finally home from travels. Item pick-up and chopping/mining (stretches/substitutes tool durability) plus shadow affinity seems like the way I'd want to go if harvester doesn't boost grass and twig harvesting. 

Rest of my mentally mapped skill selection is twine twirler, campfire enthusiast, woby treats, advanced slingshot frames, nightmare ammo, ammo crafting/hoarder, and either WHWT or another advanced slingshot part.

[Jakepeng99]

On 2/21/2025 at 4:06 PM, ArcAngela said:

Walter also learns to craft a Makeshift Tourniquet (obviously involving Rope).
It can be used on himself or other survivors to treat Max Health Penalty, like a booster shot alternative.

Makes no sense to be for the rope branch and not healing one.

[kroban]

I would love the perk having an additional effect, but imo it already is pretty strong, I would even go as far as to say that is one of the best perks in the scout branch. You can make 20 ropes with 40 grass rather than 60. You are saving more than a third of the time it takes for other characters to do the same (1/3rd when it comes to the cost, but also the "picking grass time" and the "crafting ropes time")

In multiplayer (specially during the first autumn/winter) everyone is picking a lot of grass, crafting cheaper ropes is not only good for the Walter player but also good for other players if they were to ask you for the craft.

11 hours ago, efgi said:

Here are rope recipies that do not require other refined materials:

On top of the crafts efgi mentioned here, theres also ocean crafts that require ropes, which imo makes the perk even better. For a "decent" boat (let's say 1 mast, 1 anchor, 1 Pinchin Winchin, and 1 steering wheel), you need a total of 7 ropes (21 grass), the perk cuts that down to 14. Personally I like to "rush" ocean content, like finding all islands, Pearl, rush treasures, and prob even killing Malbatross for the beak too, so atleast for me the boat getting cheaper is huuge. Theres also more "niche" ocean stuff that gets cheaper with the perk too, like trawlers (2 ropes) and Fishin Bin (3 ropes).

Also when it comes to maintaining bundles, being able to craft cheaper ropes is crazy, atleast in the servers I play many players like to carry ropes for the bundles. Cheaper ropes, in this case, is a crazy time saver.

 

[ArcAngela]

I did say that this perk is already strong but the solemn reason you go for it is because it is strong... and that a secondary, additional ability might make it more appealing than such a divisive "you either believe cheaper rope is incredible, or not" when weighting your options.

I like the idea from efgi of unlocking rope recipes as a bonus, specially if it involves so many fitting items for Walter like the bug net, lantern, drying rack, tents and tooth traps.

[efgi]

Yeah, my main reason for advancing the case for a couple prototypes to be included is that having the rope prototype out the gate and nothing to do with it until science is unlocked just feels like a weird loose end. I think a couple extra prototypes would make the skill feel more complete.

[_mylilsunshine_]

20 minutes ago, efgi said:

Yeah, my main reason for advancing the case for a couple prototypes to be included is that having the rope prototype out the gate and nothing to do with it until science is unlocked just feels like a weird loose end. I think a couple extra prototypes would make the skill feel more complete.

i think your idea is also amazing and would make a lot of sense to be implemented. not sure if waltuh's team is still taking suggestions, but i'm crossing my fingers for this