Minor critique with end-game Walter

[Catuna_]

Pinetree panache and the Pinetree Pioneer hat as a whole become rather undesirable compared to the crown, brightshade helm's convenience or void cowl's set bonus... Is there a chance that Walter could synergize with the brightshade and void cowl armor pieces too (assuming klei is adding a lunar set bonus)? Or could there be a solution to making the Pinetree pioneer hat a more desirable item to wear in the lategame where sanity food is a lot more plentiful and offensive options are just more appealing? (especially because of Walter's double banana yield atm). It'd be cool if Walter gained rifts body armor synergies while keeping his "lose less sanity with the hat" shtick.

[Walrusst]

Honestly one way to handle this would be to go wagstaff mode here.
So many things force you to take off the hat (Hi sandstorms/moonstorms) that having upgradable almost meme tier variations on the hat that use eccentric resources would be awesome for letting him rock the pinetree swag in situations where 

Stuff like having a scarf equipped hat for winter, or being able to integrate it into a goggles set, integrate sea materials (Cookie cutter pioneer hat?) for water resistance....

..... Maybe a version that blinds you a little, but improves your odds with lucky ammo (Blind as a bat-> bat wings? (Note I realize bats actually have absurdly good eyesight I'm just referencing the cultural saying.)) A bit farfetched, but something that flys in the face of his ranged identity and asks him to take a huge risk while also sacrficing armor would be the coolest.

I realize that I'm almost fully content with the update but finding bizarre ways to come up with out there insanity content expansions, but hey klei got me inspired.

Theres a lot of odd items out in the wild that have highly narrow use cases, slapping them onto a hat and calling it scouting really gives you a lot of flavor.

[IAmAFurrz]

28 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

Pinetree panache and the Pinetree Pioneer hat as a whole become rather undesirable compared to the crown, brightshade helm's convenience or void cowl's set bonus... Is there a chance that Walter could synergize with the brightshade and void cowl armor pieces too (assuming klei is adding a lunar set bonus)? Or could there be a solution to making the Pinetree pioneer hat a more desirable item to wear in the lategame where sanity food is a lot more plentiful and offensive options are just more appealing? (especially because of Walter's double banana yield atm). It'd be cool if Walter gained rifts body armor synergies while keeping his "lose less sanity with the hat" shtick.

thats the whole problem with slingshot really, you cant really make use of cooler stuff bc woby and slignshot are MEANT to go together, besides who cares about combat when you just shoot icker round and ignore most bosses that he'd ever care about 

[Catuna_]

4 minutes ago, IAmAFurrz said:

thats the whole problem with slingshot really, you cant really make use of cooler stuff bc woby and slignshot are MEANT to go together, besides who cares about combat when you just shoot icker round and ignore most bosses that he'd ever care about 

solvable by just letting him get bonuses via rift body slot items tho

[Picklesaurus]

1 minute ago, IAmAFurrz said:

 besides who cares about combat when you just shoot icker round and ignore most bosses that he'd ever care about 

I care  

[Crimson Hollow]

What about... Allowing it to be sewn together with rift headgears, and increasing the sanity drain resistance as well as woby buckoff threshold? 

 

[IAmAFurrz]

2 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

solvable by just letting him get bonuses via rift body slot items tho

imo if they didnt bother with making slingshot rounds interesting i doubt they'd care about bonuses to rift gear. besides it makes fights go slightly faster with the boring slingshot, it doesnt really matter

[Catuna_]

5 minutes ago, IAmAFurrz said:

imo if they didnt bother with making slingshot rounds interesting i doubt they'd care about bonuses to rift gear. besides it makes fights go slightly faster with the boring slingshot, it doesnt really matter

I think they expanded pretty well on Walter's rounds especially considering how poor his old rounds were/are, this just feels like a glass half empty type of opinion

[Mysterious box]

36 minutes ago, IAmAFurrz said:

imo if they didnt bother with making slingshot rounds interesting i doubt they'd care about bonuses to rift gear. besides it makes fights go slightly faster with the boring slingshot, it doesnt really matter

His rounds have a great deal of variety at the moment between slow, deaggro, aoe, dot, mark of brillance, and rng. If there's an area that could be improved it's adding more frames as they add an additional layer to the slingshot's existing rounds.

45 minutes ago, IAmAFurrz said:

thats the whole problem with slingshot really, you cant really make use of cooler stuff bc woby and slignshot are MEANT to go together, besides who cares about combat when you just shoot icker round and ignore most bosses that he'd ever care about

I don't fully agree Woby's new skills are well optimized to be helpful even if you go for a melee Walter as after all a good deal of the effects only work when your not riding Woby the only thing you'd lose out on is using the dodge dash in combat since you can't melee attack on top of Woby. However in exchange you can get all the Woby and Scouting branch skills which gives Walter a big overall boost when combined together. The slingshot is still encouraged as it's the core of his base design but now more than ever his new skills make melee combat very viable for him with the only sore spot again being just as Catuna mentioned his hat not holding up post rift. That being said the hat is definitely really good pre rift.

1 hour ago, Catuna_ said:

Pinetree panache and the Pinetree Pioneer hat as a whole become rather undesirable compared to the crown, brightshade helm's convenience or void cowl's set bonus... Is there a chance that Walter could synergize with the brightshade and void cowl armor pieces too (assuming klei is adding a lunar set bonus)? Or could there be a solution to making the Pinetree pioneer hat a more desirable item to wear in the lategame where sanity food is a lot more plentiful and offensive options are just more appealing? (especially because of Walter's double banana yield atm). It'd be cool if Walter gained rifts body armor synergies while keeping his "lose less sanity with the hat" shtick.

It would be neat if they did something similar to what they did for Wormwood and gave him a new fused version of his hat and the cowl/helm it could even be as simple as keeping the same effects but combined into one item.

[Walrusst]

Honestly being able to integrate the hat with equipment that's helpful with the skill would probably be more balanced/less extreme than it nearly shutting off his sanity downside.

[kroban]

One of the ideas I had for this was to make it so Woby could wear the Pioneer Hat and give Walter the sanity effects. Maybe at a cost if its "too op" like idk, the hat breaking after Woby transforms to big/small.

At this point I dont think it will be added but, IMO this could simply be included in the Pioneer Panache perk. I think this perk is rarely picked in early game, its barely picked for its insulation or if you want to play hybrid Walter, so adding this would make the pioneer hat viable even post-Enlightened Crown/post-rifts

[Jakepeng99]

Planar moment.

Undermines pre riff stuff.

[IAmAFurrz]

3 hours ago, Catuna_ said:

I think they expanded pretty well on Walter's rounds especially considering how poor his old rounds were/are, this just feels like a glass half empty type of opinion

all of them are just 'previous rounds but better'. i just necroposted a post that i and a friend of mine whipped up and its really fascinating how boring his actual skill tree is compared to what couldve been, like it doesnt need to be good and people can just settle with the unhealthily designed slingshot (now that its been made good enough people will riot if i even consider asking for it to be changed in anyway, same with early discussion of this badly implemented """weapon""") but i like to hope the ideas might be seen by SOMEONE (i really should stop hoping for good changes really theyre all gonna be ignored like before with the **** shoevel)

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

His rounds have a great deal of variety at the moment between slow, deaggro, aoe, dot, mark of brillance, and rng. If there's an area that could be improved it's adding more frames as they add an additional layer to the slingshot's existing rounds.

not interesting as it all works only for slingshot only, not a good mix of slingshot + melee. there will be nothing that can change the fact that you outrange most bosses and ignore everything. there is no incentive for walter to every get off of woby other than doing mining/chopping or crafting a structure

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

However in exchange you can get all the Woby and Scouting branch skills which gives Walter a big overall boost when combined together.

again, its not what im saying. the slingshot is a badly designed weapon that works with itself and only itself. you would literally have to ignore the slingshot to make a skilltree without it, and even then you'd be fighting as wilson. my only wish is for it to be explored in any way interesting.

 a friend and i made this post in hopes of getting klei to notice it, cuz they have not even explored 1 option outside of 'just use slingshot for the entire fight'

[Walrusst]

19 minutes ago, IAmAFurrz said:

not interesting as it all works only for slingshot only, not a good mix of slingshot + melee. there will be nothing that can change the fact that you outrange most bosses and ignore everything. there is no incentive for walter to every get off of woby other than doing mining/chopping or crafting a structure

I would enjoy if icher did some combo of wetness/fire vulnerability instead of the worlds biggest slow. Just make the enemy weak to all the weird magical methods of damage that rarely get used if your character doesn't specialize in them (Warly/Willow). I get that for you its just a slow but the slow status effects are sadly more centralizing to walters playstyle than the damage is (Since nothing stops him from going ornery+ sling shot and mixing beefalo pounding with his other shots, its just that the last two wraps are really strong when the enemy can't move fast enough to threaten a no speed boosts character.)

That way shadow walter is sort of a DOT+Status staller, but not a solo emulation of the wanda+maxwell team.

Since I have less complaints about ranged being a source of damage, as its already a source of damage in several other places, but pairing it with near total enemy control for dirt cheap is odd.
If we are going to have status walter have it be cool around using context, the environment, and other damage sources to more adequately counter the enemy and not just a utility to allow the slingshot (or gloomerang or howlitzer) not face retaliation from fast enemies (Like hardcore long slows get used for.)

[WilsonHiggs]

The point of his sanity mechanic is wearing a hat that doesnt give anything to reduce the sanity lose... adding anything or merging any item with that goes against the whole mechanic

[Chewabacca]

28 minutes ago, Walrusst said:

I would enjoy if icher did some combo of wetness/fire vulnerability instead of the worlds biggest slow. Just make the enemy weak to all the weird magical methods of damage that rarely get used if your character doesn't specialize in them (Warly/Willow). I get that for you its just a slow but the slow status effects are sadly more centralizing to walters playstyle than the damage is (Since nothing stops him from going ornery+ sling shot and mixing beefalo pounding with his other shots, its just that the last two wraps are really strong when the enemy can't move fast enough to threaten a no speed boosts character.)

That way shadow walter is sort of a DOT+Status staller, but not a solo emulation of the wanda+maxwell team.

Since I have less complaints about ranged being a source of damage, as its already a source of damage in several other places, but pairing it with near total enemy control for dirt cheap is odd.
If we are going to have status walter have it be cool around using context, the environment, and other damage sources to more adequately counter the enemy and not just a utility to allow the slingshot (or gloomerang or howlitzer) not face retaliation from fast enemies (Like hardcore long slows get used for.)

Yeah, we're still the fastest thing out there with Woby. We don't really need a slow-down, much less 3 of them.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, IAmAFurrz said:

not interesting as it all works only for slingshot only, not a good mix of slingshot + melee. there will be nothing that can change the fact that you outrange most bosses and ignore everything. there is no incentive for walter to every get off of woby other than doing mining/chopping or crafting a structure

 

1 hour ago, IAmAFurrz said:

again, its not what im saying. the slingshot is a badly designed weapon that works with itself and only itself. you would literally have to ignore the slingshot to make a skilltree without it, and even then you'd be fighting as wilson. my only wish is for it to be explored in any way interesting.

Unless your talking about them redesigning the slingshot to force you not to not be able to commit to it I have no idea what your talking about slowdown rounds and freeze rounds excel at helping you fight hordes up close and making making faster enemies easier to melee and get breathing room to heal from, poop pellets can help you isolate enemies or just escape confrontations with more annoying enemies like the lurking horror while focusing on terror beaks and crawling horrors, pure horror rounds can be used to place additional dps via it's spore like effect on enemies inbetween kitting, and pure brilliance rounds buff any planar weapons you use. The playstyle your asking for is already completely doable on the slingshot it's just not enforced nor do I really see a good reason why it should be I'm always down for more options but I don't see why we should intentionally limit how you can interact with it.

51 minutes ago, Walrusst said:

I would enjoy if icher did some combo of wetness/fire vulnerability instead of the worlds biggest slow.

Honestly icker rounds being changed to apply wetness instead would be pretty cool and give a good way to make use of shockscrap rounds and morning stars though it'd be a pain with it being locked behind the endgame and all perhaps changing sticky rounds to a early game variant as well?

[Walrusst]

31 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Honestly icker rounds being changed to apply wetness instead would be pretty cool and give a good way to make use of shockscrap rounds and morning stars though it'd be a pain with it being locked behind the endgame and all perhaps changing sticky rounds to a early game variant as well?

Slurtle rounds would be a great way to get that sort of utility in the early game as its both very wet and very flammable.

Plus one of the really interesting things you can do with walter is that you can really farm truly extraordinary amounts of slurtle slime treating the slurtles like your pets (Slingshot ammo feeds them really well.)

[HeatAndRun]

5 hours ago, Catuna_ said:

solvable by just letting him get bonuses via rift body slot items tho

Why this is not a thing already? The body slot rift armors are so underrated now! 

[IAmAFurrz]

4 hours ago, Walrusst said:

slow status effects are sadly more centralizing to walters playstyle

it quite literally is one of the biggest problems with walter (the icker is the biggest problem, purple at least costs purple gems) and its why i see walters slingshot **** is so badly designed, it reduces most bosses to shoot slow round -> hold f, with no risk at all too, which is why im a big supporter of walters ammo getting more interesting effects like my friend and i have suggested (he did amazing on the art for the items)

 

2 hours ago, Walrusst said:

Slurtle rounds would be a great way to get that sort of utility in the early game as its both very wet and very flammable.

Plus one of the really interesting things you can do with walter is that you can really farm truly extraordinary amounts of slurtle slime treating the slurtles like your pets (Slingshot ammo feeds them really well.)

already better idea tha most of the rounds in the skill tree

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Unless your talking about them redesigning the slingshot to force you not to not be able to commit to it

i would want that since ranged is really powerful, with the slows available. but now i just want my friend and i's ideas for ammo to make it in cuz itd really make slingshot cooler and flexible

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

making making faster enemies easier to melee and get breathing room to heal from

but why would you do that instead of just tanking? marble armor is useful even on woby so there no point in tanking with melee either when you can just use honey slow + moonglass rounds

 

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

poop pellets can help you isolate enemies or just escape confrontations with more annoying enemies like the lurking horror while focusing on terror beaks and crawling horrors

TIL poop pellets had uses, neat to know they can be used for shadows

 

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I don't see why we should intentionally limit how you can interact with it.

im not asking for limiting how you interact with it atp, im just asking for slingshot to get more ammos that dont require you to keep on using it.

 

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

pure horror rounds can be used to place additional dps via it's spore like effect on enemies inbetween kitting, and pure brilliance rounds buff any planar weapons you use

these are the only 2 healthy design decisions, but then again that isnt encouraged as the rest of the skill tree adds the majority to slingshot, and woby compltments it so much (as it was designed to be). theres so little to encourage melee in walter's skill tree, leaving pine tree hat useless, and his 0 sanity drain is never really utilized bc hes always outside enemy range

[Crimson Hollow]

3 hours ago, IAmAFurrz said:

theres so little to encourage melee in walter's skill tree, leaving pine tree hat useless,

I mean.... Why should we encourage melee for him to begin with? His whole skill set kinda punishes you for fighting melee. Even with the -75% sanity drain he still goes insane faster unless you're very skilled in kiting. 

Either way, playing melee Walter is always a choice. I agree to buffing Pinetree Panache to be useful in hybrid playstyles, and nerfing some slowdown rounds to be more interactive. But encouraging melee for a ranged character seems a bit weird to me, and I'm afraid that's not exactly why ppl choose Walter. 

[IAmAFurrz]

55 minutes ago, Crimson Hollow said:

His whole skill set kinda punishes you for fighting melee.

they made pine tree hat """better""" with one of the skills and its still near worthless. its such a bad attempt at making it useful

and thats exactly my point. slingshot is boring due to slow being the only useful debuff and an overpowered one at that, and all of it works with itself only. future bosses will also be reduced to an oversized spider with that slow, thats not a healthy way to design the slingshot. my point is add some damn interesting options to MIX UP THE USAGE OF SLINGSHOT. i literally linked the post where i made suggestions for ammo that'd be independent of walter without him being forced to use slingshot for effectiveness. there are only 2 shining examples of good design and its only 2 out of that pile of **** sadly.

58 minutes ago, Crimson Hollow said:

But encouraging melee for a ranged character seems a bit weird to me, and I'm afraid that's not exactly why ppl choose Walter. 

hybrid is utilizing both melee AND ranged but his skilltree made slingshot MOSTLY ranged. if hes RANGED he would never get off of woby. and yes, of course, with the current skilltree why WOULD anyone bother fighting on foot with walter, its dogshit comapred to 0 risk just hold f slingshot

[IAmAFurrz]

1 hour ago, Crimson Hollow said:

I agree to buffing Pinetree Panache to be useful in hybrid playstyles, and nerfing some slowdown rounds to be more interactive

they saw ppl complaining about icker and decided to nerf its timer thinking 'yea thats perfect' and completely missing the entire problem (and the timer is STILL stupidly long);. genuinely dont know what the **** they were thinking with that slap on the wrist nerf

[Gashzer]

Allow pioneer panache to also give pinecone hat planar defense. I think that would solve all the problems.