Wendy doing more damage per hit than wigfrid is wrong

[Bumber64]

5 hours ago, Lardee said:

Green gems, thulecite and living logs are among the most expensive and valuable resources. I would not consider that cheap.

Unless you're saying her skill tree makes it almost impossible for Abigail die, not sure why that's an argument. 

We're comparing theoretical maximums here. A good helmet and a magi + walking make default characters faster and way more durable than War Saddle Ornery beefalo. If your argument is that an advantage of using beefalo is that Wendy can use utility head/body slot items without sacrificing armor or speed, then that's a valid point.

Compare to volt goat horns. Much more effort for a buff that lasts a fraction of the time. Wendy can easily keep CV up for the entire part of the game she can make practical use of it.

Abi dying certainty cancels the buff.

The ultimate point is that ornery should remain a viable choice in some way, but I don't think it's on a specific Wendy interaction to make that happen. It's generally fast enough, but there's no reason to pick it over rider other than it breaks one specific damage mult. Rider even does the utility stuff better, so magi's not the real competition.

Removing the beefalo-is-a-Wendy interaction makes CV debuff mult more reasonable, and lets Klei buff ornery for everyone else (if inclined). It's impossible to balance the mult for on and off beefalo simultaneously.

[IAmAFurrz]

On 2/3/2025 at 1:56 AM, Jakepeng99 said:

With the shadow vex, she does around +40% net damage. With a beefalo it is even higher.

It doesnt make much sense she is more powerful than Wigfrid. I think the potion should be reworked where it adds flat planar damage for the vex.

this is not taking into account that abi takes positional and health management on many aoe bosses, plus future bosses may be even harder. and the punishment of letting abi die (im ignoring ghastly experience bc its a ******* sin)

[Lardee]

55 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Compare to volt goat horns. Much more effort for a buff that lasts a fraction of the time. Wendy can easily keep CV up for the entire part of the game she can make practical use of it.

Yes, Wendy has an easier time accessing her buff than Warly.  No, I wouldn't describe never letting Abigail die in combat or burning through green gems as "easy". I think "possible" or "viable" is a better word.

55 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Abi dying certainty cancels the buff.

The ultimate point is that ornery should remain a viable choice in some way, but I don't think it's on a specific Wendy interaction to make that happen. It's generally fast enough, but there's no reason to pick it over rider other than it breaks one specific damage mult. Rider even does the utility stuff better, so magi's not the real competition.

Are you talking about Wendy using Rider instead of Ornery? I agree, the only real incentive Wendy has to pick Ornery over Rider is that it gives her her theoretical highest damage. Take that away and I'd never tame an Ornery as Wendy because, like everyone else, what's the point of dealing with the downsides of Beefalo combat if you're dealing more damage off of it?

 

55 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Removing the beefalo-is-a-Wendy interaction makes CV debuff mult more reasonable, and lets Klei buff ornery for everyone else (if inclined). It's impossible to balance the mult for on and off beefalo simultaneously.

In order to claim something is more reasonable, you have to establish a baseline. Why is the current CV "unreasonable"? What's the actual logic that determines what a "reasonable" CV debuff is? If you have a principled answer to those questions, then ask yourself: "How does this principle serve to make DST a more enjoyable game"?

I've never heard even the slightest implication that the reason Klei isn't buffing ornery for everyone else is because of Wendy. Nor does that make any sense since they did buff Ornery with things like the Nightmare Saddle and Gloom Bell.  Plus characters having special interactions with items everyone can use is what makes DST gameplay great. Wendy and Beefalo makes Wendy unique for the same reason that Wigfrid and the enlightened crown makes Wigfrid gameplay unique. Giving every character the same incentives as Wendy doesn't make them more unique, it just makes Wendy more generic for the same reason Wigfrid would become more generic if everyone could fire off infinite gestalts with the enlightened crown.

The word "balance" needs to go through the same thought process as "reasonable". What's the logic behind what you consider "balanced"? What purpose does it serve in a non-competitive sandbox survival game like DST where players typically choose their characters based on gameplay or their aesthetics rather than if they're the strongest or weakest.

[Bumber64]

49 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Yes, Wendy has an easier time accessing her buff than Warly.  No, I wouldn't describe never letting Abigail die in combat or burning through green gems as "easy". I think "possible" or "viable" is a better word.

It lasts a whole day, with the possibility of more than one per craft. Account for the rate of converting gems to PH. I don't think "burning" fits here either.

49 minutes ago, Lardee said:

In order to claim something is more reasonable, you have to establish a baseline. Why is the current CV "unreasonable"? What's the actual logic that determines what a "reasonable" CV debuff is? If you have a principled answer to those questions, then ask yourself: "How does this principle serve to make DST a more enjoyable game"?

1.5 to 2.0 is a fairly large difference in multipliers. This for a character who's supposed to rely on her partner for AoE damage, not have her own high single-target damage (explicitly Wolfgang's role).

They ditched Wendy's floral shroud instead of reworking it because Wanda is supposed to be the glass cannon. Same issue with making her extra-effort Wolfgang.

49 minutes ago, Lardee said:

I've never heard even the slightest implication that the reason Klei isn't buffing ornery for everyone else is because of Wendy. Nor does that make any sense since they did buff Ornery with things like the Nightmare Saddle and Gloom Bell.

"If inclined". They didn't rework atrium tentacle until they broke voidwalking. It draws scrutiny to the larger issue.

Bell isn't specific to ornery. Saddle is a well-rounded improvement to the other saddles, but doesn't really keep pace with rifts damage (i.e., no void cowl boost).

[WenericMember]

13 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

They ditched Wendy's floral shroud instead of reworking it because Wanda is supposed to be the glass cannon. Same issue with making her extra-effort Wolfgang.

"Extra Effort Wolfgang"... isn't Wolfgang. He doesn't get a monopoly over single target DPS.

Wolfgang is defined how high his DPS is, and how Free it is. If that wasn't the case, then no character should have significant single target damage Buffs, not Warly, not Willow, not Wormwood.

To me at least "Wolfgang's DPS is Free" is a bigger contributor to him not getting many other relevant perks than "Wolfgang's DPS is bigger"

[Lardee]

23 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

It lasts a whole day, with the possibility of more than one per craft. I wouldn't describe that as "burning" through green gems.

I don't see how it lasting for a day or getting more than one per craft refutes the point. You get an average of 4 pure horror from NMWP.  Assuming you're killing NMWP and Scrappy as soon as they appear, you have to stretch that 4 pure horror across at least 20 days. You're going to use a bunch of green gems.

23 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

1.5 to 2.0 is a fairly large difference in multipliers. This for a character who's supposed to rely on her partner for AoE damage, not have her own high single-target damage (explicitly Wolfgang's role).

This completely goes against Wendy's 2020 rework design which rewards the player with higher single-target damage for managing to keep Abigail alive.  Not only that, but Wendy needing to jump through a bunch of hoops to achieve something Wolfgang obtains on day 1 wouldn't violate Wolfgang's design anymore than Warly being able to outdamage Wolfgang via spicy volt goat jelly would.

 

23 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

They ditched Wendy's floral shroud instead of reworking it because Wanda is supposed to be the glass cannon. Same issue with making her extra-effort Wolfgang.

Did they explicitly say that it was because Wanda is supposed to be it, or did they say that they just didn't want Wendy to be a glass canon? Doesn't really matter though since, like mentioned before, Wendy's 2020 rework made her a character who does extra single-target damage as a reward for keeping Abigail alive.

23 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

"If inclined". They didn't rework atrium tentacle until they broke voidwalking.

Bell isn't specific to ornery. Saddle is a well-rounded improvement to the other saddles, but doesn't really keep pace with rifts damage (i.e., no void cowl boost).

So just an assumption.

Bell is specific to ornery unless you're going to argue that people typically get their beefalo killed when not using them for combat. Not sure what you're trying to say about the saddle. If Klei wanted to make Ornery Beefalo more viable without buffing Wendy too much, they would have made the Nightmare Saddle stronger since Wendy's vex has no affect on planar damage. Yet they didn't which means beefalo damage is right where they want it to be.

[Bumber64]

1 hour ago, Lardee said:

I don't see how it lasting for a day or getting more than one per craft refutes the point. You get an average of 4 pure horror from NMWP.  Assuming you're killing NMWP and Scrappy as soon as they appear, you have to stretch that 4 pure horror across at least 20 days. You're going to use a bunch of green gems.

This completely goes against Wendy's 2020 rework design which rewards the player with higher single-target damage for managing to keep Abigail alive.  Not only that, but Wendy needing to jump through a bunch of hoops to achieve something Wolfgang obtains on day 1 wouldn't violate Wolfgang's design anymore than Warly being able to outdamage Wolfgang via spicy volt goat jelly would.

 

Did they explicitly say that it was because Wanda is supposed to be it, or did they say that they just didn't want Wendy to be a glass canon? Doesn't really matter though since, like mentioned before, Wendy's 2020 rework made her a character who does extra single-target damage as a reward for keeping Abigail alive.

So just an assumption.

Bell is specific to ornery unless you're going to argue that people typically get their beefalo killed when not using them for combat. Not sure what you're trying to say about the saddle. If Klei wanted to make Ornery Beefalo more viable without buffing Wendy too much, they would have made the Nightmare Saddle stronger since its Wendy's vex has no affect on planar damage. Yet they didn't which means beefalo damage is right where they want it to be.

I might do the numbers on how many greens you're expected to get/spend later. (How many statues for 20 elixirs?) I suspect it's more than enough, especially if you can manage more than one boss per use on occasion, rather than just keeping it active constantly. (I.e., what are you actually using the buff for? It doesn't help you megabase or fight shadows.) You can also just open the rift before NMWP respawns. If we're to be trapped in an eternal pre-rifts thought experiment, gem trees are fair game.

Rework boosted her damage slightly above average. It's not even Wigfrid's multiplier, actually (who is geared as much towards defense and healing).

Warly's a chef. He cooks buff food that anyone can use. He does not get a damage boost just for satisfying his appetite. He doesn't get a special multiplier for chili or VGCF. The chef cooks for others, perfectly in line with his character.

I'd have to dig up the quote, which is a pain on phone.

Beefalo can die whenever you get hit or dismount somewhere you shouldn't. (Depths worms? Lunar frog rain? IDK.) I doubt they considered Wendy at all when designing the saddle, TBH. Probably more attention paid to how Wigfrid skills and the average Wilson interacts with it.

[Lardee]

3 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

I might do the numbers on how many greens you're expected to get/spend later. I suspect it's more than enough, especially if you can manage more than one boss per use on occasion.

The question wasn't whether it's possible to replenish enough green gems within that timespan. The question was whether you burn through expensive and valuable resources. Assuming infinite thul and living logs, 2 green gems nets 8 pure horror. So you're looking at 3-4 green gems every 20 days assuming you're killing scrappy and nightmare immediately.

Losing 3-4 green gems every 20 days prior to resetting the ruins is a significant price to pay.

 

3 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Rework boosted her damage slightly above average. It's not even Wigfrid's multiplier, actually (who benefits more from defense and healing).

You cited she had a 1.54x damage multiplier. If you want to now factor Wendy's .75x multiplier into this, then you're going from 1.15 to 1.55 which isn't close to Wolfgang's 2.0x.

None of this is also relevant for the fact that the criteria for "reasonable" vex debuff hasn't been articulated as well as how this criteria will increase players ability to enjoy the game.

 

3 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Warly's a chef. He cooks buff food that anyone can use. He does not get a damage boost just for satisfying his appetite. He doesn't get a special multiplier for chili or VGCF. The chef cooks for others, perfectly in line with his character.

If anything, this hurts your argument even more considering Warly allows any character to surpass Wolfgang's 2.0x damage multiplier which further refutes the assertion that Wolfgang's exclusive role is that of a damage dealer. 

If it's "in line with his character" for Warly to allow any character to surpass Wolfgangs supposed "exclusive role" as a damage dealer, then it's not an exclusive role and there's no reason why Wendy's character can't do the same.

Plus what's "in line with his character" is subjective. I could just as well argue that beefalo getting Wendy's buff is in line with her character since it's Wendy (and not the beefalo itself) controlling it/using it as a weapon.

 

3 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

I'd have to dig up the quote, which is a pain on phone.

Beefalo can die whenever you get hit or dismount anywhere you shouldn't. (Ruins? Lunar frog rain? IDK.) I doubt they considered Wendy at all when designing the saddle, TBH. Probably more attention paid to how Wigfrid skills and the average Wilson interacts with it.

The question wasn't whether Beefalo CAN die. The question was what's the situation in which they typically die.

If they didn't consider Wendy at all when designing the saddle that greatly increased Beefalo combat, then it just further disproves the argument that they would make Beefalo stronger if not for Wendy's special damage.

[Bumber64]

23 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Losing 3-4 green gems every 20 days prior to resetting the ruins is a significant price to pay.

Is it? How many 20 days to reset the ruins? You'll go for the gem trees if you're putting it off indefinitely.

23 minutes ago, Lardee said:

You cited she had a 1.54x damage multiplier. If you want to now factor Wendy's .75x multiplier into this, then you're going from 1.15 to 1.55 which isn't close to Wolfgang's 2.0x.

There's a ~1.5x for cursed vexation on foot and a similar one for non-cursed on beefalo, as a potential cause for confusion. I've been clear the beefalo mult needs to go. The foot numbers are fine, considering skill trees do raise DPS.

23 minutes ago, Lardee said:

If anything, this hurts your argument even more considering Warly allows any character to surpass Wolfgang's 2.0x damage multiplier which further refutes the assertion that Wolfgang's exclusive role is that of a damage dealer. 

If it's "in line with his character" for Warly to allow any character to surpass Wolfgangs supposed "exclusive role" as a damage dealer, then it's not an exclusive role and there's no reason why Wendy's character can't do the same.

Pro-tip: Wolfgang can eat Warly food. This redefines the Wolfgang damage baseline.

[Lardee]

14 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Is it? How many 20 days to reset the ruins? You'll go for the gem trees if you're putting it off indefinitely.

If you're resetting the ruins, you're activating the rifts in which case there's no need for green gems since pure horror is plentiful.

14 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

There's a ~1.5x for cursed vexation on foot and a similar one for non-cursed on beefalo, potential cause for confusion. I've been clear the beefalo mult needs to go. The foot numbers are fine, considering skill trees do raise DPS.

If you're talking about beefalo multis then her rework is a 1.54x which defeats the argument that it's a slight increase.

Still waiting on the criteria for what a "reasonable" vex debuff is and why that will improve people's ability to enjoy the game.

14 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Pro-tip: Wolfgang can eat Warly food. This redefines the Wolfgang damage baseline.

Doesn't matter because your argument was damage dealing is Wolfgang's exclusive role, therefore under no circumstances can another character surpass him.

Also waiting on the explanation about how, after jumping through a bunch of hoops, Wendy having a theoretical higher max damage multiplier than what Wolfgang achieves on day 1 makes either character worse.

[Bumber64]

35 minutes ago, Lardee said:

If you're talking about beefalo multis then her rework is a 1.54x which defeats the argument that it's a slight increase.

 

50 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

I've been clear the beefalo mult needs to go.

1.54x beefalo is bad because it surpasses most other characters for little additional effort. I called for this to be nerfed even before this skill tree. 2.08x beefalo is bad because it outright surpasses Wolfgang (the strongest™) for a certain degree of additional effort. (Wanda has to suffer being a glass cannon to match his DPS.) Beefalo bad.

35 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Also waiting on the explanation about how, after jumping through a bunch of hoops, Wendy having a theoretical higher max damage multiplier than what Wolfgang achieves on day 1 makes either character worse.

I can just as well demand you explain why it's good for either, and assert you haven't done so.

Why not give Wigfrid or WX the 2x mult instead? Is that better or worse? Explain.

It's ultimately subjective, and we're still in the testing phase for Wendy's changes.

42 minutes ago, Lardee said:

If you're resetting the ruins, you're activating the rifts in which case there's no need for green gems since pure horror is plentiful.

And since shadow rifts has no bosses to speak of, where does the difficulty in maintaining cursed vexation come from, would you say?

[Lardee]

I think I misunderstood what you were saying here so I'll reply again:

 

1 hour ago, Bumber64 said:

Is it? How many 20 days to reset the ruins? You'll go for the gem trees if you're putting it off indefinitely.

How exactly wouldn't 3-4 green gems every 20 days not be a significant cost? If you're a Wendy who wants to have shadow vex 24/7 you're not putting off opening the rifts indefinitely.

23 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

1.54x beefalo is bad because it surpasses most other characters for little additional effort. I called for this to be nerfed even before this skill tree. 2.08x beefalo is bad because it outright surpasses Wolfgang (the strongest™) for a certain degree of additional effort. (Wanda has to suffer being a glass cannon to achieve his DPS.) Beefalo bad.

 

Uh, since when did using beefalo for combat while managing Abigail require "little additional effort"?

Even if we pretend that it did, why is it just assumed that this is bad?

Why is it bad that Wendy having a theoretical higher maximum DPS than Wolfgang? 

 

23 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

I can just as well demand you explain why it's good for either, and assert you haven't done so.

Why not give Wigfrid or WX the 2x mult instead? Is that better or worse? Explain.

It's ultimately subjective, and we're still in the testing phase for Wendy's changes.

I've never held the position that it's good or bad. My argument since the beginning has been that making Wendy's theoretical max above or below Wolfgang will affect zero people's ability to enjoy the character. 

You think it's bad, so I want the explanation why it would negatively impact the Wendy or Wolfgang experience.

What I did argue was that when it comes to beefalo, removing Wendy's unique interaction would make Wendy gameplay way less unique as it would remove many of the incentives to approach combat in a different way than the default Wilson/Wolfgang interactions.

[Thieta]

10 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

I can just as well demand you explain why it's good for either, and assert you haven't done so.

Why not give Wigfrid or WX the 2x mult instead? Is that better or worse? Explain.

It's ultimately subjective, and we're still in the testing phase for Wendy's changes.

Deflection - instead of using manipulation tactics, Answer the question honestly.
If you yourself can't make a convincing argument, That can convince yourself at the very least, That shows you hold no water...

Epiphany - Let's end this argument once and for all!

I'd be entirely happy to provide a reason why it's good and beneficial to the game for wendy to have this kind of theoretical damage and damage multiplier (I am only doing this simply to avoid another deflection manipulation tactic from you), However, I will only do so after you yourself provide the argument that -- Wendy having her theoretical high damage (That although comes close to wolfgangs, Cannot surpass it) After a long time of setup, Hinders and negatively affects both Wendy and Wolfgangs character (Who has a higher damage multipler and higher max dmg from day 1) and thus provides a more negative gameplay experience for players.

[Guille6785]

Wendy doing more damage per hit than wilson is wrong

16 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Compare to volt goat horns. Much more effort for a buff that lasts a fraction of the time. Wendy can easily keep CV up for the entire part of the game she can make practical use of it.

please never use arguably the worst designed character in the game (warly) as the baseline to judge how other characters should be designed, I personally don't want an entire roster of warlys

[Dingle]

26 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

please never use arguably the worst designed character in the game (warly) as the baseline to judge how other characters should be designed, I personally don't want an entire roster of warlys

I always thought Wurt was the worst designed character in the game. Build enough hobo shacks and you just kind of win, no real upper limit. The ultimate character to bring into a balance argument, if you want to deflect.

This thread is great btw.

[Crimson Hollow]

35 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

Wendy doing more damage per hit than wilson is wrong

please never use arguably the worst designed character in the game (warly) as the baseline to judge how other characters should be designed, I personally don't want an entire roster of warlys

Why is Warly the worst designed character xd 

He's my 2nd main and I'm kinda curious

[Jakepeng99]

1 hour ago, Guille6785 said:

please never use arguably the worst designed character in the game (warly) as the baseline to judge how other characters should be designed, I personally don't want an entire roster of warlys

Its a good comparison.

[Guille6785]

3 hours ago, Crimson Hollow said:

Why is Warly the worst designed character xd 

He's my 2nd main and I'm kinda curious

people complain about walter being a perk soup while pretending that warly's kit (which essentially entirely consists of disconnected crock pot dishes, many of which you will obtain many hours apart from each other) isn't

virtually none of his non-buff dishes fit niches in the overall sandbox of DST that other dishes don't already fill 

people gush over his supposed playstyle of rewarding variety even though he doesn't do that, he just punishes you for not living exclusively off high hunger dishes like meaty stew

he has no skill expression or learning curve since his few good dishes are locked behind factors outside the player's control

and if you play the game well he has almost no upsides, he's essentially just spicy jelly and nothing else

[Crimson Hollow]

1 hour ago, Guille6785 said:

people complain about walter being a perk soup while pretending that warly's kit (which essentially entirely consists of disconnected crock pot dishes, many of which you will obtain many hours apart from each other) isn't

virtually none of his non-buff dishes fit no niches in the overall sandbox of DST that other dishes don't already fill 

people gush over his supposed playstyle of rewarding variety even though he doesn't do that, he just punishes you for not living exclusively off high hunger dishes like meaty stew

he has no skill expression or learning curve since his few good dishes are locked behind factors outside the player's control

and if you play the game well he has almost no upsides, he's essentially just spicy jelly and nothing else

Fair points. I enjoy playing as him in public servers cause I can just stick to my roles of farming and cooking and I'd be able to feed a 8-player team with limited resources by making hunger efficient dishes e.g. moqueca, but his gameplay, especially in single player, feels oddly... stunted.

My biggest issue with Warly is that playing as him gets boring real fast. As a chef he gets zero bonus in everything else which locks the players in the same gameplay loop as others. It is indeed satisfying to gather every single ingredient in the game and cook every dish he could, but then I get stuck on the question: What now? 

 

[Bumber64]

4 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

please never use arguably the worst designed character in the game (warly) as the baseline to judge how other characters should be designed, I personally don't want an entire roster of warlys

And yet he's got the only other existing consumable damage boost. It's unavoidable.

You act like I was suggesting Wendy require dietary restrictions to craft the elixir. (Not that you even have to engage with Warly's downside just to craft his items.) Cursed vexation is clearly cheap for what it is, even if you needed green gems (which you don't).

Perhaps you'd rather an entire roster of Wendys?

[Guille6785]

31 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

And yet he's got the only other existing consumable damage boost. It's unavoidable.

You act like I was suggesting Wendy require dietary restrictions to craft the elixir. (Not that you even have to engage with Warly's downside just to craft his items.) Cursed vexation is clearly cheap for what it is, even if you needed green gems (which you don't).

Perhaps you'd rather an entire roster of Wendys?

my point is that it's a terrible baseline to go off of

[Bumber64]

Guess it just became moot. Beefalo interaction (including chili vs VGCF) is still weird, but its not really a high priority.

Weather pain doing planar damage is kind of interesting. Not sure if that's intended.