Why is Wendy's design so bad but she is still being weakened?/为什么温蒂的设计本来就那么差劲了还要削弱她?

[Catapult 2.0]

  This update to the test server is not infuriating but disappointing, and trust me, there won't be so many people giving Wendy advice in the future, because we're so disappointed that this is possible. After a month of waiting, it was a lot of time for players to spend time testing, giving opinions across language barriers, and analyzing the rationality of skills on the forums, only to be met with a simple weakening of the game's stats.

  It's not these nerves that we're disappointed with, it's that they're not being made at the same time as there are no mechanical adjustments. The mechanics of potions and form transformations were originally designed to be terrible, and the game values of characters with poor mechanics were difficult to control, and a little higher or lower would be too strong or too weak, and Wendy's designers seemed to be obsessed with repeatedly adjusting the values this time. It only takes two different ordinary potions to work at the same time to solve 99% of the potion problem, but the designers are reluctant to do so.

 

  这次测试服的更新已经不是让人愤怒而是让人失望了，请相信我，之后不会再有那么多人为温蒂提供意见了，因为我们对这件事的可行性失望透顶。经过一个月的等待，这段时间里很对玩家不断花时间测试、跨越语言障碍提出意见、在论坛上分析技能合理性，等到的却是单纯的游戏数值上的削弱。

  我们失望的不是这些削弱，是在削弱的同时没有任何机制上的调整。药水和形态转化的机制本来设计得就烂透了，机制糟糕的角色游戏数值很难把控，稍微高一点或者低一点都会太强或太弱，而温蒂的设计师在这次看来只执着于反复调整数值。仅仅只需要能同时作用两种不同的普通药剂就能解决药水99%的问题，设计师却迟迟不愿意这样做。

[Dingle]

Seems like too much of a buff, 2 potions at once. The super elixir was done as a direct response to that request, as a compromise.

Her skill tree seems really, really strong. Probably one of the best in the cast. Maybe even still too free form? She gets a LOT for her insight points.

Vex potion still seems way too strong too.

[cyjs]

因为平庸

[Yaorin yon]

too strong too strong ， It seems that we have been fighting fiercely for three months, and many people still don't understand what people on the other side of the ocean are pursuing. Since the first week, we have been advocating for 'everyone doesn't need a troublesome Wolfgang, but an interesting Wendy'. In the end, our discussion continued to revolve around a group of tedious numerical additions and subtractions. This is already exhausting.

[Wendyskill]

因为伟大的，不知道如何使用船桨划船的，地面试图召唤织影者的，建议玩家关闭大蠕虫的，在不停的试图告诉我们温蒂还是too strong了！为什么不顺从他呢？我是说，要不直接向他们建议添加一个关闭温蒂技能树的功能吧，那我们就随便他们搞得一团糟，或者让我们直接关闭游戏吧，只要科雷能补偿我十年以来在这个游戏的所有花费的话。「不喜欢就关掉」真是太对了，我选择关掉我的电脑。

[kroban]

On 1/24/2025 at 7:01 AM, Dingle said:

Her skill tree seems really, really strong. Probably one of the best in the cast. Maybe even still too free form? She gets a LOT for her insight points.

I agree, im tired of wendy players still wanting more and claiming that the skill tree is "trash that adds nothing", most of her current perks are clustered together and have like 3+ effects each one. Shes getting an insane amount of value per insight point compared to the rest of the cast. All her disadvantages have been removed (i.e half a stack of mourning glory per pipspook, loses less sanity, can relocate tombstones 3 tiles away from her base, can drink elixirs (that are now cheaper) for a 1-hit bone armor, more speed, night vision, hp regen; Abigail gained a **** ton of survivability, and also has Wolfgang-level damage with Ornery + Abigail, Wendy even has a cheap revive that you can spam out of farming spiders, etc etc).

If you compare her to the rest of skill trees theres a BIG difference. Woodie's skill tree for example (which for many is considered "the best designed skill tree") still mantains a lot of his drawbacks and nearly all of his perks have just 1 effect, at best 2. Or even on this update alone, seeing that her skill tree has waaaaay more than Walter's or Wortox's (characters that barely had a decent basekit and were in a pretty bad place) is ridiculous. 

[Cassielu]

44 minutes ago, kroban said:

If you compare her to the rest of skill trees theres a BIG difference.

To be honest, that's the thing that puzzles me the most. We came to diametrically opposed conclusions from the matter.

I feel that if the design logic of any of these three skill trees is copied to the Wendy skilltree, it will be better and stronger than the current Wendy skilltree.

Just try to solve this... I wonder what you think of Wormwood Skilltree? In my opinion, it's incredibly bad in a similar way to the Wendy's Skilltree. (too discrete, too many unrelated to the characters themselves.)

 

BTW, I think a lot of people confuse "a stronger, powerful character" with "a better character design". 

[DaDa_waw]

26 minutes ago, kroban said:

I agree, at this point its infuriating that wendy players still want more and are still claiming that the skill tree is "trash that adds nothing", most of her current perks are clustered together and have like 3+ effects each one. Shes getting an insane amount of value per insight point compared to the rest of the cast. All her disadvantages have been removed (i.e half a stack of mourning glory per pipspook, loses less sanity, can relocate tombstones 3 tiles away from her base, has elixirs for a 1-hit bone armor, more speed, night vision, Abigail gained a **** ton of survivability, and also has Wolfgang-level damage with Ornery + Abigail, she even has a cheap revive, etc etc).

If you compare her to the rest of skill trees theres a BIG difference. Woodie's skill tree for example (which for many is considered "the best designed skill tree") still mantains a lot of his drawbacks and nearly all of his perks have just 1 effect, at best 2. Or even on this update alone, seeing that her skill tree has waaaaay more than Walter's or Wortox's, when these 2 characters barely had a working basekit and Wendy was already quite strong before, is ridiculous.

No matter how many chicken feathers you stack for a skill point, it's not enough to be compared to a cotton quilt.
Woodie only needs 3 skill points to strengthen herself for 80% of the duration of 3 transformations. Each of the 3 transformations has extremely comprehensive reinforcement, and the moose even gains 15 points of positional defense while possessing 90% of its own. At the same time, the third attack has positional damage correction, originally 136, and even corrected to 146.6 when resisting face-to-face entities. However, this is just the tip of the iceberg in Woodie's functionality.
Even the most meticulous carpenter can use one skill point to reduce the material consumption of wooden boards by 25%. Who can replace it?
The more you speak, the less persuasive your viewpoint becomes. Try to learn more.

[Dingle]

4 minutes ago, DaDa_waw said:

No matter how many chicken feathers you stack for a skill point, it's not enough to be compared to a cotton quilt.
Woodie only needs 3 skill points to strengthen herself for 80% of the duration of 3 transformations. Each of the 3 transformations has extremely comprehensive reinforcement, and the moose even gains 15 points of positional defense while possessing 90% of its own. At the same time, the third attack has positional damage correction, originally 136, and even corrected to 146.6 when resisting face-to-face entities. However, this is just the tip of the iceberg in Woodie's functionality.
Even the most meticulous carpenter can use one skill point to reduce the material consumption of wooden boards by 25%. Who can replace it?
The more you speak, the less persuasive your viewpoint becomes. Try to learn more.

This is even leaving out that Woodie gets a beard. Wendy? NO beard.

Yeah, and why doesn't Wendy get carpentry skills?

Finally, can we talk about the extreme disparity in Wendy and Woodie's favorite foods?

[DaDa_waw]

3 minutes ago, Dingle said:

This is even leaving out that Woodie gets a beard. Wendy? NO beard.

Yeah, and why doesn't Wendy get carpentry skills?

Finally, can we talk about the extreme disparity in Wendy and Woodie's favorite foods?

Do you like Honey Nuggets? Although I think Turkey Dinner and Honey Ham look more delicious

[Dingle]

2 minutes ago, DaDa_waw said:

Do you like Honey Nuggets? Although I think Turkey Dinner and Honey Ham look more delicious

Are we talking in game or real life?

Woodie's favorite food bonus makes honey nuggets a really strong food. It's one of the best, most practical, favorite foods.

[PunkShark]

10 minutes ago, DaDa_waw said:

No matter how many chicken feathers you stack for a skill point, it's not enough to be compared to a cotton quilt.
Woodie only needs 3 skill points to strengthen herself for 80% of the duration of 3 transformations. Each of the 3 transformations has extremely comprehensive reinforcement, and the moose even gains 15 points of positional defense while possessing 90% of its own. At the same time, the third attack has positional damage correction, originally 136, and even corrected to 146.6 when resisting face-to-face entities. However, this is just the tip of the iceberg in Woodie's functionality.
Even the most meticulous carpenter can use one skill point to reduce the material consumption of wooden boards by 25%. Who can replace it?
The more you speak, the less persuasive your viewpoint becomes. Try to learn more.

As a starter, Woodie is not Wendy, you shouldn't compare their powers because Woodie as a character is far different from Wendy who isn't a jack of all trades, Woodie has drawbacks and limitations within his skill tree and character unlike Wendy who gets everything on a silver platter while Woodie has 3 roles that he has to maintain within limitations of what you want to become better at. All forms are a commitment as soon as you eat an idol in combatant situations with moose(including the fact the best skill of 3 is locked within commitment of going all out on one form)with a lack of control with your stats while doing so, unable to heal, and limited access to keep your stats up, or limited to a specific speed.

Wendy has abi, and everything Wendy does is connected to Abi and making her stronger, easy to make elixirs, easy commands to keep her safe. She is incredibly easy to use and understand, and her role is only within one thing which is Abigail to use her for combat. Wendy has absolutely no limitations within her skill tree aside from the 15 point limit. Everything that Wendy is, is written in the Character selection screen as much as woodie is which is being a lumberjack and his curses.

[DaDa_waw]

2 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Are we talking in game or real life?

Woodie's favorite food bonus makes honey nuggets a really strong food. It's one of the best, most practical, favorite foods.

Both are, I don't mind because in actual games, Bacon and Eggs are the best-selling, while Banana Pop can almost only be used as a seasoning for life

[kroban]

16 hours ago, DaDa_waw said:

No matter how many chicken feathers you stack for a skill point, it's not enough to be compared to a cotton quilt.
Woodie only needs 3 skill points to strengthen herself for 80% of the duration of 3 transformations. Each of the 3 transformations has extremely comprehensive reinforcement, and the moose even gains 15 points of positional defense while possessing 90% of its own. At the same time, the third attack has positional damage correction, originally 136, and even corrected to 146.6 when resisting face-to-face entities. However, this is just the tip of the iceberg in Woodie's functionality.
Even the most meticulous carpenter can use one skill point to reduce the material consumption of wooden boards by 25%. Who can replace it?
The more you speak, the less persuasive your viewpoint becomes. Try to learn more.

Yet he still has almost all of his previous drawbacks and perks that are a single effect. If Woodie were to get the Wendy's treatment, on top of all the things he already has, Moose would also move faster, be able to use items and heal more/use healing items,  wouldn't have the "stun" animation while de-transforming, his wooden helm would protect like a marble armor, his walking cane wouldn't break and be faster than McTusk's , the treeguards he summons would be controllable/non-aggresive towards him, his goose form would be faster and able to tp on a precise location with no extra cost, his beaver form would auto-collect all farmed items, and so on. 

Like I said, im tired of Wendy players still crying over her skill tree and claiming that its "horrible trash with no value" when her skill tree clearly got the value of 2 character refresh, or more precisely, what would be 2 entire skill trees on any other character.

[DaDa_waw]

7 minutes ago, PunkShark said:

As a starter, Woodie is not Wendy, you shouldn't compare their powers because Woodie as a character is far different from Wendy who isn't a jack of all trades, Woodie has drawbacks and limitations within his skill tree and character unlike Wendy who gets everything on a silver platter while Woodie has 3 roles that he has to maintain within limitations of what you want to become better at. All forms are a commitment as soon as you eat an idol in combatant situations with moose(including the fact the best skill of 3 is locked within commitment of going all out on one form)with a lack of control with your stats while doing so, unable to heal, and limited access to keep your stats up, or limited to a specific speed.

Wendy has abi, and everything Wendy does is connected to Abi and making her stronger, easy to make elixirs, easy commands to keep her safe. She is incredibly easy to use and understand, and her role is only within one thing which is Abigail to use her for combat. Wendy has absolutely no limitations within her skill tree aside from the 15 point limit. Everything that Wendy is, is written in the Character selection screen as much as woodie is which is being a lumberjack and his curses.

What is the significance of receiving support for Wendy's weakening in this update if there is a stronger character in a small part that can be compared to the whole? I want to know this motivation.

[PunkShark]

3 minutes ago, DaDa_waw said:

What is the significance of receiving support for Wendy's weakening in this update if there is a stronger character in a small part that can be compared to the whole? I want to know this motivation.

What weaknesses. You still have an incredibly strong minion that'll take a big chunk of battles for you, you can revive her, you can heal her with just a couple of elixirs cheaper than a hambat + more
One tiny nerf that you can take off at any time is not going to ruin her terribly.

EDIT: Never in the history of DST has characters ever been balanced around each other. Everyone has their own powers and strong abilities. And they have never been on the same wavelenght

[DaDa_waw]

7 minutes ago, kroban said:

Yet he still has almost all of his previous drawbacks and perks that are a single effect. If Woodie were to get the Wendy's treatment, on top of all the things he already has, would also move faster, be able to use items and heal more while on moose, his wood helm would protect like a marble armor, his walking cane wouldn't break and be faster than McTusk's , the treeguards he summons would be controllable, his goose form would be able to tp on a precise location with no extra cost, his beaver form would auto-collect all farmed items, and so on. 

Like I said, im tired of Wendy players still crying over her skill tree and claiming that its "horrible trash with no value" when her skill tree clearly got the value of like 2 entire character refresh

I am also tired of countless people's efforts being in vain, only to receive a one-sided view like yours.
KLei doesn't want to give Wendy an interesting skill tree, KLei just wants to give Wendy a boring skill tree as much as possible, KLei just wants to make the skill tree interesting by increasing and decreasing the values.
And with so many suggested posts and so much desire to tell KLei that we want something interesting. And how many have you seen?

How dare you say such irresponsible words?

 

 

[Dingle]

4 minutes ago, DaDa_waw said:

What is the significance of receiving support for Wendy's weakening in this update if there is a stronger character in a small part that can be compared to the whole? I want to know this motivation.

I think Woodie should be nerfed heavily, you have convinced me.

I also think Wendy should be nerfed heavily, because she should be exactly like Woodie.

Both Woodie and Wendy should be nerfed into the ground.

That way, they could also give Wendy an insulating beard and the ability to change into a moose. Abigail could then be turned into an axe that chops wood.

The game would finally be balanced.

[Steorra]

4 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I think Woodie should be nerfed heavily, you have convinced me.

I also think Wendy should be nerfed heavily, because she should be exactly like Woodie.

Both Woodie and Wendy should be nerfed into the ground.

That way, they could also give Wendy an insulating beard and the ability to change into a moose. Abigail could then be turned into an axe that chops wood.

The game would finally be balanced.

I have started a thread to prove that no skill treed character is weaker than Wendy in post-rift game except Wormwood. Maybe you need to ask a general nerfing for all skill tree characters first I guess.

[DaDa_waw]

8 minutes ago, PunkShark said:

What weaknesses. You still have an incredibly strong minion that'll take a big chunk of battles for you, you can revive her, you can heal her with just a couple of elixirs cheaper than a hambat + more
One tiny nerf that you can take off at any time is not going to ruin her terribly.

EDIT: Never in the history of DST has characters ever been balanced around each other. Everyone has their own powers and strong abilities. And they have never been on the same wavelenght

Monster meat is already the most common thing in this game, and it may even find you from afar. To be cheaper than it, it's best to look for air.
If the role doesn't need balance, then weakening support becomes even more meaningless, which actually becomes a bigger question

[PunkShark]

Just now, DaDa_waw said:

Monster meat is already the most common thing in this game, and it may even find you from afar. To be cheaper than it, it's best to look for air.
If the role doesn't need balance, then weakening support becomes even more meaningless, which actually becomes a bigger question

1 thing that's cheap doesn't mean there isn't drawbacks of using them. I mentioned plenty of drawbacks of using idols and usage of the 3 forms.
There are no drawbacks of elixirs except for the capacity. There are no drawbacks of using Abigail herself. Everything that limits abi is yourself for not using elixirs to save her, make her stronger and using commands to aid her. including Fighting together with her.
 

[DaDa_waw]

9 minutes ago, PunkShark said:

1 thing that's cheap doesn't mean there isn't drawbacks of using them. I mentioned plenty of drawbacks of using idols and usage of the 3 forms.
There are no drawbacks of elixirs except for the capacity. There are no drawbacks of using Abigail herself. Everything that limits abi is yourself for not using elixirs to save her, make her stronger and using commands to aid her. including Fighting together with her.
 

If the shortcomings you mentioned really have a significant impact, perhaps they can help me understand.
However, the abilities gained from using meat statues far exceed what you can achieve through any other means.
Just like using 3 pieces of monster meat and 2 pieces of wood, you can get a piece of wood that Wilson couldn't get even after working with an axe and shovel for 20 days.
By using a few moose statues and far below average supplies, you can crush the entire Ruins.
It's not enough to talk about paper without practical considerations.
On this basis, Wendy is far from achieving such OP, and people not only cannot keep it as it is, but also applaud because her skill tree is weaker. All of this is so unreasonable.

[kroban]

7 hours ago, DaDa_waw said:

KLei doesn't want to give Wendy an interesting skill tree, KLei just wants to give Wendy a boring skill tree as much as possible, KLei just wants to make the skill tree interesting by increasing and decreasing the values.

Dude honestly, are you even testing the skill tree on beta or you are just forming your opinions from reading the beta updates? Her skill tree is FAR from being "numbers increasing/decreasing" and boring. Wolfgang got the "numbers" skill tree, literally like 90% of his perks are just number tweaks. THATS a boring skill tree.

Just from the things I can remember right now, Wendy got:

- Commands on Abigail with new mechanics (fear, haunt, dash and escape)

- Movable/craftable tombs you can use for farms, defense, and extra damage on bosses. Also an evil flower farm.

- Wraiths wreath with basically free sanity, and drinkable potions effects which are like 5 different things, night vision, 1-hit bone armor, life regen, another way to cure black HP bar, faster movement speed.

- The ability to double or triple elixir crafts while also having a new elixir for quickly recovering Abigail's health.

- A new basket for storing all the elixir.

- A craftable revive stone she can spam (hp cost you can heal with silk tents, and mourning glory you now get easier)

- Vengeful ghosts if you or a friend were to die fighting.

- Reviving dead butterflies rather than having to catch them with a bug net, which can be a completely unique way to farm butterflies/flowers/evil flowers unlike any other character.

- All of her extra damage/defense improvements are not "just numbers" but rather things you actually have to interact with in game (moon/evil flowers on sisturns, murder command, new elixirs for damage, Abigail Gestalt on/off mode, etc)

 

All these things are NOT "just numbers". The only "numbers" thing, in the entire skill tree, is technically pipspook perks, because it just makes them give you more mourning glory and easier. And that is just 3 QoL perks out of the entire skill tree.

[PunkShark]

24 minutes ago, DaDa_waw said:

If the shortcomings you mentioned really have a significant impact, perhaps they can help me understand.
However, the abilities gained from using meat statues far exceed what you can achieve through any other means.
Just like using 3 pieces of monster meat and 2 pieces of wood, you can get a piece of wood that Wilson couldn't get even after working with an axe and shovel for 20 days.
By using a few moose statues and far below average supplies, you can crush the entire Ruins.
It's not enough to talk about paper without practical considerations.
On this basis, Wendy is far from achieving such OP, and people not only cannot keep it as it is, but also applaud because her skill tree is weaker. All of this is so unreasonable.

Since im curious. What would your iteration of wendy’s skill tree be? 

[DaDa_waw]

13 minutes ago, kroban said:

Dude honestly, are you even testing the skill tree on beta or you are just forming your opinions from reading the beta updates? Her skill tree is FAR from being "numbers increasing/decreasing" and boring. Wolfgang got the "numbers" skill tree, literally like 90% of his perks are just number tweaks. THATS a boring skill tree.

Just from the things I can remember right now, Wendy got:

- Commands on Abigail with new mechanics (fear, haunt, dash and escape)

- Movable/craftable tombs you can use for farms, defense, and extra damage on bosses. Also an evil flower farm.

- Wraiths wreath with basically free sanity, and drinkable potions effects which are like 5 different things, night vision, 1-hit bone armor, life regen, another way to cure black HP bar, etc

- The ability to double or triple elixir crafts while also having a new elixir for quickly recovering Abigail's health.

- A new basket for storing all the elixir.

- A craftable revive stone she can spam (hp cost you can heal with silk tents, and mourning glory you now get easier)

- Vengeful ghosts if you or a friend were to die fighting, which is a new mechanic.

- Reviving dead butterflies (which is, technically, a new mechanic)

- All of her extra damage/defense improvements are not "just numbers" but rather things you actually have to interact with in game (moon/evil flowers on sisturns, murder command, new elixirs for damage, Abigail Gestalt on/off mode, etc)

 

All these things are NOT "just numbers". The only "numbers" thing, in the entire skill tree, is technically pipspook perks, because it just makes them give you more mourning glory and easier. And that is just 3 QoL perks out of the entire skill tree.

If there seems to be a good momentum for speaking, then take a good look at your opinions on these contents

The previous article had a lot of outdated content, but it's still sufficient. These few articles are new

 

 

You just need to tell me, 'Will they be more interesting than they are now?' That's enough

2 minutes ago, PunkShark said:

Since im curious. What would your iteration of wendy’s skill tree be? 

They are here, I don't think they are perfect, but I think they are more interesting than they are now. Since you wish to see it, I sincerely recommend it to you