Blessed Sisturn III Nerf Was Not As Bad As Previously Thought.

[WenericMember]

5 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

It... doesn't, though? It makes the healing nerf actually work as intended. Right now, it's outright a bad idea to take this perk. I genuinely do not believe that Klei meant for it to be a negative against just shy of half of the bosses, but it is. 

Whatever their intention, "making her more tanky than she already is" isn't what this'd do. It'd make her consistently as tanky with the perk active against all bosses instead of it being useful against half of the bosses (though considerably less useful than it was before) and actively detrimental against the rest. 

Yeah. The intention of this skill is "Wendy has greater durability v bosses, without further buffing her already ridiculous horde capabilities." This is a fair stance for the skill.

The issue is the player tag is scuffed and is not consistent.

[Steorra]

9 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

 instead of it being useful against half of the bosses (though considerably less useful than it was before) and actively detrimental against the rest. 

They already gave a dogma as "you may to remove the lune blossoms from the sisturn before you fight your next specific boss. 

[WenericMember]

2 minutes ago, Debruh said:

The thematic point was more of an additional thing but I do think it works against how Abby is mechanically designed as.

I personally agree with a lvl 4. It's a three insight skill, as the two before it are useless. Making Abby stronger against hordes will honestly not make a difference that much, she already destroys them and with how easier cure-all has been getting easier to produce, she's already practically unkillabe against hordes with cure-all.

But on the flipside of the coin, Abby is already good against non bosses so her not being better at them with this skill also makes sense, so Sisturn ||| only boosting Abby against bosses is pretty good, but it needs to be 50% damage reduction against all bosses rather than giving her player tag.

Doubled blossom durability is very appreciated QOL and giving AOE sanity drain reduction is a pretty useful perk all things considered.  They're not the strongest skills, but they're far from worthless.

Agree with the last statement though, the only problem is the inconsistency, and that should be fixed anyway.

[Steorra]

6 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Yeah. The intention of this skill is "Wendy has greater durability v bosses, without further buffing her already ridiculous horde capabilities." This is a fair stance for the skill.

The issue is the player tag is scuffed and is not consistent.

Whatever the current issues lies behind sisturn III or player tag, the problem already here.

I don't think to change more base mechanic of DST for balance ONE skill is good idea.

So I'm still confused that what makes the current Sisturn III be a better balance choice than simple 600 extra HP for Abi.

[DVGMedia]

1 minute ago, Debruh said:

so Sisturn ||| only boosting Abby against bosses is pretty good, but it needs to be 50% damage reduction against all bosses rather than giving her player tag.

The main thing about the bosses though is the aspect of healing.  If we are keeping the nerfed healing Then maybe those ideas would work.  But Then theres the whole day to day apsect of abigail.
I don't think we should have the solution being "oh just don't have this thing active during this time frame"   We shouldn't restrict players that way

[Mysterious box]

5 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

It... doesn't, though? It makes the healing nerf actually work as intended. Right now, it's outright a bad idea to take this perk. I genuinely do not believe that Klei meant for it to be a negative against just shy of half of the bosses, but it is. 

Whatever their intention, "making her more tanky than she already is" isn't what this'd do. It'd make her consistently as tanky with the perk active against all bosses instead of it being useful against half of the bosses (though considerably less useful than it was before) and actively detrimental against the rest. 

I feel like the intention is for you to remove the lunar petals when you face bosses the skill wouldn't apply to the change your suggesting is making her more tanky because those bosses don't account for the player tag so they are dealing half the damage they would to anything else rather than equalizing the damage to that of a player which would make tanking even more effective against most of those bosses.

[DVGMedia]

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I feel like the intention is for you to remove the lunar petals when you face bosses the skill wouldn't apply to the change your suggesting is making her more tanky because those bosses don't account for the player tag so they are dealing half the damage they would to anything else rather than equalizing the damage to that of a player which would make tanking even more effective against most of those bosses.

I don't think thats the mental gymanstics klei wants for the player to be doing
I think really whats going on is klei had a cute idea and they wanted to implement it
HOwever it just doesn't work that well gamplay wise

[Debruh]

3 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Doubled blossom durability is very appreciated QOL and giving AOE sanity drain reduction is a pretty useful perk all things considered.  They're not the strongest skills, but they're far from worthless.

Agree with the last statement though, the only problem is the inconsistency, and that should be fixed anyway.

Udeless might have been the wrong word, but I highly doubt anyone would get into this branch for those two, unless they have extra insight points.

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I feel like the intention is for you to remove the lunar petals when you face bosses the skill wouldn't apply to the change your suggesting is making her more tanky because those bosses don't account for the player tag so they are dealing half the damage they would to anything else rather than equalizing the damage to that of a player which would make tanking even more effective against most of those bosses.

1 minute ago, DVGMedia said:

I don't think thats the mental gymanstics klei wants for the player to be doing

You can't even tell what bosses do double damage or not, there isn't even a way to tell. Unless you spend time studying the whole thing. Even the wiki is wrong, like about fuelweaver. 

[Mysterious box]

Just now, DVGMedia said:

I don't think thats the mental gymanstics klei wants for the player to be doing

Personally I don't think it's a good solution but I do think that was what was intended. Which considering the average person doesn't even know those tags exist is flawed.

[DegenerateFurry]

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I feel like the intention is for you to remove the lunar petals when you face bosses the skill wouldn't apply to 

And how, exactly, are players supposed to know what bosses to do that with and what bosses not to do that with?

Just now, Mysterious box said:

Personally I don't think it's a good solution but I do think that was what was intended. Which considering the average person doesn't even know those tags exist is flawed.

If you agree that it's flawed, why does it seem like you're defending it? 

[DVGMedia]

Just now, Mysterious box said:

Personally I don't think it's a good solution but I do think that was what was intended. Which considering the average person doesn't even know those tags exist is flawed.

Why would a regular person need to know that player tag exists?
Its only there so that way bosses are not easily mowed down by hordes of mobs.

[Mysterious box]

Just now, DegenerateFurry said:

And how, exactly, are players supposed to know what bosses to do that with and what bosses not to do that with?

If you agree that it's flawed, why does it seem like you're defending it? 

I'm against the solution of giving Abigail a 50% defense increase against bosses who weren't designed with the player tag in mind specifically.

[Steorra]

9 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

to remove the lunar petals when you face bosses the skill wouldn't apply

This is silly.

Is that you means you have to go back home for a silly decoration adjustments when you just want to go kill some species bosses when you out of your home?

 

[Mysterious box]

Just now, DVGMedia said:

Why would a regular person need to know that player tag exists?
Its only there so that way bosses are not easily mowed down by hordes of mobs.

Because the skill's effect doesn't apply to certain bosses due to them not making use of that mechanic?

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I'm against the solution of giving Abigail a 50% defense increase against bosses who weren't designed with the player tag in mind specifically.

There's so many potential solutions has been discussed. Give Abi extra level or whatever to make her has 1200 HP could simply does same intention of healing reduction. And other complex solutions would work better than current one as well.

No idea why you insist to defend the worse one from the current stage.

[DegenerateFurry]

Just now, Mysterious box said:

I'm against the solution of giving Abigail a 50% defense increase against bosses who weren't designed with the player tag in mind specifically.

The purpose of the perk is to make Abigail have more survivability against bosses. Since Abigail cannot wear armor, her consistently getting reduced damage from bosses would be a good thing. Bee Queen already goes from 120 to 60 against player tag Abigail, so why not have Ancient Guardian go from 100 to 50 against her? 

 

[DVGMedia]

3 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Because the skill's effect doesn't apply to certain bosses due to them not making use of that mechanic?

If you look at the list the bosses there have already some very good counters against mobs. so much so they don't need player entity stuff because then that would just be overkill.
 

[WenericMember]

3 minutes ago, Steorra said:

There's so many potential solutions has been discussed. Give Abi extra level or whatever to make her has 1200 HP could simply does same intention of healing reduction. And other complex solutions would work better than current one as well.

No idea why you insist to defend the worse one from the current stage.

Because all those solutions have their own problems. This has already been discussed extensively.

[Siren11]

I’m also curious how the change will work for bosses that do more, but not double, damage to mobs (like Fuelweaver and Celestial Champion). Are you better off not using Lune Blossoms so you can heal more effectively, or is it better to make Abigail a little more tanky? It seems like you’d lose out on more healing than you’d gain, but she also takes a lot of damage in those fights.

(I’m also the wrong person to test these, since I haven’t beaten them normally yet. Just putting the idea out there.)

[Mysterious box]

6 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

The purpose of the perk is to make Abigail have more survivability against bosses. Since Abigail cannot wear armor, her consistently getting reduced damage from bosses would be a good thing. Bee Queen already goes from 120 to 60 against player tag Abigail, so why not have Ancient Guardian go from 100 to 50 against her? 

 

In the case of bee queen the grumbles would be factored in though Abigail does already counter them.

That being said multiple threads on the topic and buffs are already starting to crop up so I imagine they're going to roll back the healing change soonish anyway.

[Yaorin yon]

So far, no character should receive huge negative feedback because of their skill tree. I think this 1+1=1 design is extremely absurd and stifles players' choices. Why?

[aidankocherhans]

Maybe the skill shouldn't affect her healing until she get hit by a boss that has reduced damage from the skill, and then she gets a long lasting debuff that lowers her healing

[Koomin]

The sisturn change might actually be good if you could tell which bosses needed the petals without opening the wiki.  Adding Wendy voice lines when Abigail is hit by something that treated her as a non player could work to help indicate it.  Something like "if only there was a way to make Abigail's presence stronger".

[Steorra]

4 minutes ago, Koomin said:

The sisturn change might actually be good if you could tell which bosses needed the petals without opening the wiki.  Adding Wendy voice lines when Abigail is hit by something that treated her as a non player could work to help indicate it.  Something like "if only there was a way to make Abigail's presence stronger".

It seems like another adjustment advise of base kit of Wendy. The current version of Sisturn III is bad and caused more issues which need to adjust base kit, I think to rework the Sisturn III again is better than to change base kit for fixing only a skill.

1 hour ago, aidankocherhans said:

Maybe the skill shouldn't affect her healing until she get hit by a boss that has reduced damage from the skill, and then she gets a long lasting debuff that lowers her healing

Seems like a potential method for solving current problem. Though I'm doubt that if the devs would like to add such "complex" codes for an unpopular version of current Sisturn III.

2 hours ago, WenericMember said:

Because all those solutions have their own problems. This has already been discussed extensively.

Far lesser problems than current one.

Especially I can't understand why "double survivability of Abi" would be a balance issue for non-bosses mobs but Huant was ignored here.

Nerf Huant first if non-bosses balance issue is such important to Abi.

[Dingle]

19 minutes ago, Steorra said:

It seems like another adjustment advise of base kit of Wendy. The current version of Sisturn III is bad and caused more issues which need to adjust base kit, I think to rework the Sisturn III again is better than to change base kit for fixing only a skill.

Seems like a potential method for solving current problem. Though I'm doubt that if the devs would like to add such "complex" codes for an unpopular version of current Sisturn III.

Far lesser problems than current one.

Especially I can't understand why "double survivability of Abi" would be a balance issue for non-bosses mobs but Huant was ignored here.

Nerf Huant first if non-bosses balance issue is such important to Abi.

Too strong.

Besides, you, yourself, specifically wanted and lead the vote with your friends on the player tag. I remember this specifically.