Blessed Sisturn III Nerf Was Not As Bad As Previously Thought.

[DegenerateFurry]

So, I can understand what Klei's going for here. They want to make it so that you can't just heal Abigail while also making her tanky. I have my opinion on whether or not that's even necessary to do, but I'll set that aside for now to instead discuss how this change affects things and why it turned the perk from a great one to take into one you're actively harmed by taking.

Some bosses have doubled damage against mobs while others do the same amount to players and mobs. 

Bosses that do the same regardless of target type:

• Ancient Guardian
• Shadow Pieces (all, all stages)
• Lord of the Fruit Flies (does he even count?)
• Crab King's imposing claws
• Nightmare Werepig
• Possessed Varg
• Frostjaw
• Great Depths Worm
• Scrappy Werepig
• Spider Queen
• Toadstool
• Ancient Fuelweaver

Bosses that do doubled damage to mobs: 

• Bearger
• Deerclops
• Moose/Goose
• Antlion
• Bee Queen
• Crystal Deerclops
• Armored Bearger
• Malbatross
• Dragonfly
• Eye of Terror
• Twins of Terror
• Treeguards
• Celestial Champion also does extra damage to mobs with most of its attacks, but it's only a little bit more rather than doubled.

If you count, that's about half of the bosses in the game that don't do extra damage to mobs. There's no player tag mechanic with them, so their damage is unaffected by the perk. Because of the way this perk works, that means it gives literally no benefit against half of all bosses. 

So, because it gives no benefit against those bosses, if you're fighting them with the perk active, the perk is actually hurting you by making Abigail heal less efficiently while not making her any tankier.

While it is true that you could just swap out the lune blossoms for normal petals to take away the perk, that doesn't negate the fact that there's literally no way to know in-game, aside from extensive testing or looking it up, which bosses you should use lune blossoms against and which ones you shouldn't. 

So, if the idea's that more experienced players can use Team Spirit to keep Abigail alive while more casual or newer players can use Blessed Sisturn III to do it, it actually kinda achieves the opposite, since new or casual players are probably not going to have that now-necessary knowledge. 

Okay, so, turns out the wiki's actually wrong. Only the Shadow Pieces, Toadstool('s Boomshrooms), Crab King's imposing claws, the Lord of the Fruit Flies, the Possessed Varg, Spider Queens, and the Shadow Pieces are unaffected by Blessed Sisturn III. That's still more inconsistency than I'd like, but it's nowhere near as bad as I thought before someone pointed out that my list was incorrect and I went to go test it in-game. 

[WenericMember]

That's an issue with the player tag, not giving Abigail the player tag. That inconsistency occurs for everyone, not just Abigail.

So yes, Player tag should be made applicable  to anything with the epic tag.

[Siren11]

I think the wiki is wrong about Fuelweaver, btw. I’m pretty sure it’s 150 damage to mobs and 100 to players.

I haven’t been able to test anything yet (been at work), but I do agree that this seems more punishing than anything. It would be better if the “player tag” was more consistent. But I think players might still be screwed over by random events on the way to boss fights (frog rain, possibly even late game hound waves) if Abigail can’t really heal properly anymore. It’s a shame because the animation is so good!

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, WenericMember said:

That's an issue with the player tag, not giving Abigail the player tag. That inconsistency occurs for everyone, not just Abigail.

So yes, Player tag should be made applicable  to anything with the epic tag.

Are you asking for Klei to half the damage of these bosses?
 

• Ancient Guardian
• Shadow Pieces (all, all stages)
• Lord of the Fruit Flies (does he even count?)
• Crab King's imposing claws
• Nightmare Werepig
• Possessed Varg
• Frostjaw
• Great Depths Worm
• Scrappy Werepig
• Spider Queen
• Toadstool
• Ancient Fuelweaver

Because otherwise the player tag is working as intended for them.

[WenericMember]

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Are you asking for Klei to half the damage of these bosses?
 

• Ancient Guardian
• Shadow Pieces (all, all stages)
• Lord of the Fruit Flies (does he even count?)
• Crab King's imposing claws
• Nightmare Werepig
• Possessed Varg
• Frostjaw
• Great Depths Worm
• Scrappy Werepig
• Spider Queen
• Toadstool
• Ancient Fuelweaver

Because otherwise the player tag is working as intended for them.

I'll be honest i don't know if the tag is internally "half damage v player" or "double damage against mobs", and it doesn't really matter. If anything they should deal double damage to things with the player tag, or just have their damage rebalanced in general.

[DegenerateFurry]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

Are you asking for Klei to half the damage of these bosses?
 

• Ancient Guardian
• Shadow Pieces (all, all stages)
• Lord of the Fruit Flies (does he even count?)
• Crab King's imposing claws
• Nightmare Werepig
• Possessed Varg
• Frostjaw
• Great Depths Worm
• Scrappy Werepig
• Spider Queen
• Toadstool
• Ancient Fuelweaver

Because otherwise the player tag is working as intended for them.

This is why I don't see it as an issue with the player tag itself. The amount of damage those bosses do to players is actually reasonable in at least most of those cases (I know people argue about whether or not the Great Depths Worms's digestion attack is too much or not - personally I feel like it isn't since it's easy to avoid). 

If Klei really wants to make Blessed Sisturn III reduce Abigail's healing as a nerf to it, maybe they should just do away with the player tag thing entirely and make the perk give her a flat 50% damage resistance to all bosses? It'd achieve the same effect as her having a player tag-like bonus against them. 

[Mysterious box]

Just now, WenericMember said:

I'll be honest i don't know if the tag is internally "half damage v player" or "double damage against mobs", and it doesn't really matter. If anything they should deal double damage to things with the player tag, or just have their damage rebalanced in general.

The way it works is certain bosses have a damage multiplier against mobs to try to discourage cheesing them with followers this multiplier applies to everything that isn't a player. What the sisturn skill does is make Abigail tagged as a player so those features don't apply to her. The player tag however only applies to bosses with that multiplier so it's working as intended.

[Debruh]

Just now, DegenerateFurry said:

This is why I don't see it as an issue with the player tag itself. The amount of damage those bosses do to players is actually reasonable in at least most of those cases (I know people argue about whether or not the Great Depths Worms's digestion attack is too much or not - personally I feel like it isn't since it's easy to avoid). 

If Klei really wants to make Blessed Sisturn III reduce Abigail's healing as a nerf to it, maybe they should just do away with the player tag thing entirely and make the perk give her a flat 50% damage resistance to all bosses? It'd achieve the same effect as her having a player tag-like bonus against them. 

Yea, just give her 50% damage reduction against epic tag/all bosses.

That way, you only need to get lunar blossoms against normal enemies. Which can work as a nice bit of strategy ig

[WenericMember]

Just now, Mysterious box said:

The way it works is certain bosses have a damage multiplier against mobs to try to discourage cheesing them with followers this multiplier applies to everything that isn't a player. What the sisturn skill does is make Abigail tagged as a player so those features don't apply to her. The player tag however only applies to bosses with that multiplier so it's working as intended.

Yeah. I think the solution is to just give that multiplier to more bosses personally, but i can see why people would oppose that.

[Debruh]

4 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

I'll be honest i don't know if the tag is internally "half damage v player" or "double damage against mobs", and it doesn't really matter. If anything they should deal double damage to things with the player tag, or just have their damage rebalanced in general.

 

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

The way it works is certain bosses have a damage multiplier against mobs to try to discourage cheesing them with followers this multiplier applies to everything that isn't a player. What the sisturn skill does is make Abigail tagged as a player so those features don't apply to her. The player tag however only applies to bosses with that multiplier so it's working as intended.

From what I understand from DVG and mods, its halved against players.

[WenericMember]

3 minutes ago, Debruh said:

 

From what I understand from DVG and mods, its halved against players.

TBH the more confusion there is over this mechanic, the more convinced I am  to say that it's player tags fault, not blessed sisturn.

IMO "Bosses deal double damage to non-player mobs" should be a consistent rule that Abigail should be able to get an exception to.

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

This is why I don't see it as an issue with the player tag itself. The amount of damage those bosses do to players is actually reasonable in at least most of those cases (I know people argue about whether or not the Great Depths Worms's digestion attack is too much or not - personally I feel like it isn't since it's easy to avoid). 

If Klei really wants to make Blessed Sisturn III reduce Abigail's healing as a nerf to it, maybe they should just do away with the player tag thing entirely and make the perk give her a flat 50% damage resistance to all bosses? It'd achieve the same effect as her having a player tag-like bonus against them. 

The problem is that would make her extremely tanky which she already kind of is which is the reason the nerf was applied in the first place. The goal is to make you actually engage in the fight rather than Abigail being able to face tank. 

[Debruh]

Just now, WenericMember said:

TBH the more confusion there is over this mechanic, the more inclined I am  to say that it's player tags fault, not blessed sisturn.

IMO "Bosses deal double damage to non-player mobs" should be a consistent rule that Abigail should be able to get an exception to.

Honestly both.

Player tag for being inconsistent for some reason.

And Blessed Sisturn ||| for getting involved in the mechanics rather than just going the double hp route or the 50% damage reduction route from the beginning. 

[Mysterious box]

4 minutes ago, Debruh said:

 

From what I understand from DVG and mods, its halved against players.

 

1 minute ago, WenericMember said:

TBH the more confusion there is over this mechanic, the more inclined I am  to say that it's player tags fault, not blessed sisturn.

IMO "Bosses deal double damage to non-player mobs" should be a consistent rule that Abigail should be able to get an exception to.

That's not how it works otherwise there wouldn't be bosses that don't deal double damage to mobs.

[Debruh]

Just now, Mysterious box said:

 

That's not how it works otherwise there wouldn't be bosses that don't deal double damage to mobs.

It's either some bosses deal half damage to players or some bosses deal double damage to mobs. Either way it's inconsistent and some bosses not dealing double damage to mobs is weird

[WenericMember]

1 minute ago, Debruh said:

Honestly both.

Player tag for being inconsistent for some reason.

And Blessed Sisturn ||| for getting involved in the mechanics rather than just going the double hp route or the 50% damage reduction route from the beginning. 

That's fair enough, but if Player Tag was more consistent, it's more thematically relevant for Abby to have that then doubled HP, so I think it's a fair argument for it over alternatives.  Doubled HP doesn't work because it works v hordes.

 

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

 

That's not how it works otherwise there wouldn't be bosses that don't deal double damage to mobs.

It's fine to have exceptions, but as a general rule I think it should be more clear & consistent with how formatted.

[Mysterious box]

Just now, Debruh said:

It's either some bosses deal half damage to players or some bosses deal double damage to mobs. Either way it's inconsistent and some bosses not dealing double damage to mobs is weird

It's some bosses deal double damage to mobs the list is above the goal was likely to avoid cheesing certain bosses with hordes.

[DVGMedia]

5 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

TBH the more confusion there is over this mechanic, the more convinced I am  to say that it's player tags fault, not blessed sisturn.

IMO "Bosses deal double damage to non-player mobs" should be a consistent rule that Abigail should be able to get an exception to.

The thing is player tag is supposed to be only what the player experiences. The fact that some bosses don't have it does not change the experience at all for players.
And the characters that get affected by bosses already have planar entity protection on their side effectively giving them more than the player tag could ever offer.

 

In fact it may just be better to give abby planar entity protection
Since it would mean she would have lower hp against regular mobs But higher hp against stronger boss mobs.

[Debruh]

1 minute ago, DVGMedia said:

fact it may just be better to give abby planar entity protection
Since it would mean she would have lower hp against regular mobs But higher hp against stronger boss mobs

50% damage reduction is probably better imo. It could be disguised as player tag.

Planar entity protection doesn't really make sense.

Abigail is mostly built to tank hordes, small chip attacks. Giving her something that is less potent versus chip attacks and more against stronger attacks feels weird. Kinda opposite to Abby's design.

And thematically, it just makes Abby even less human. But the above is more important

[DegenerateFurry]

11 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

The problem is that would make her extremely tanky which she already kind of is which is the reason the nerf was applied in the first place. The goal is to make you actually engage in the fight rather than Abigail being able to face tank. 

Yeah, that's why the healing nerf would be kept if the player tag was changed to a flat 50% resistance to bosses. 

[Mysterious box]

Just now, DegenerateFurry said:

Yeah, that's why the healing nerf would be kept if the player tag was changed to a flat 50% resistance to bosses. 

What I'm saying is this is a problem because this would just make her even more tanky than she already is which was the original reason for this nerf. Your solution is the buff her even further which I'm saying defeats the entire purpose of the healing nerf.

[DVGMedia]

1 minute ago, Debruh said:

50% damage reduction is probably better imo. It could be disguised as player tag.

Planar entity protection doesn't really make sense.

Abigail is mostly built to tank hordes, small chip attacks. Giving her something that is less potent versus chip attacks and more against stronger attacks feels weird. Kinda opposite to Abby's design.

And thematically, it just makes Abby even less human. But the above is more important

well ive kind of gone against the whole concept of thematic things now.
LIke i feel giving abby a lvl 4 with more hp and light  will provide more utilty for players that want to go that route  Without needing to nerf healing.
But people say that boosting her health that way will make her too strong against small hordes.
But  if they were to keep the healing debuff It would make more sense for abby to have planar protection since then at least the healing debuff is not just fully detrimental against certain bosses. And outside of boss combat.

[Steorra]

To give Abi extra HP or extra Level or Planar entity tag to enhance the general survivability? No.

To give Abi a player tag which work nothing to some bosses but with a punishment to all scenarios? Yes.

That's what the "balance" someone prefer.

[DegenerateFurry]

Just now, Mysterious box said:

What I'm saying is this is a problem because this would just make her even more tanky than she already is which was the original reason for this nerf. Your solution is the buff her even further which I'm saying defeats the entire purpose of the healing nerf.

It... doesn't, though? It makes the healing nerf actually work as intended. Right now, it's outright a bad idea to take this perk. I genuinely do not believe that Klei meant for it to be a negative against just shy of half of the bosses, but it is. 

Whatever their intention, "making her more tanky than she already is" isn't what this'd do. It'd make her consistently as tanky with the perk active against all bosses instead of it being useful against half of the bosses (though considerably less useful than it was before) and actively detrimental against the rest. 

[Debruh]

Just now, DVGMedia said:

well ive kind of gone against the whole concept of thematic things now.
LIke i feel giving abby a lvl 4 with more hp and light  will provide more utilty for players that want to go that route  Without needing to nerf healing.
But people say that boosting her health that way will make her too strong against small hordes.
But  if they were to keep the healing debuff It would make more sense for abby to have planar protection since then at least the healing debuff is not just fully detrimental against certain bosses. And outside of boss combat.

The thematic point was more of an additional thing but I do think it works against how Abby is mechanically designed as.

I personally agree with a lvl 4. It's a three insight skill, as the two before it are useless. Making Abby stronger against hordes will honestly not make a difference that much, she already destroys them and with how easier cure-all has been getting easier to produce, she's already practically unkillabe against hordes with cure-all.

But on the flipside of the coin, Abby is already good against non bosses so her not being better at them with this skill also makes sense, so Sisturn ||| only boosting Abby against bosses is pretty good, but it needs to be 50% damage reduction against all bosses rather than giving her player tag.