YouKnowWho142 Posted January 14, 2025 Share Posted January 14, 2025 This isn't anyone's fault, and I'm sorry if the title makes it come off that way. Wendy in particular is an insanely popular character with a mechanic that can easily go out of hand if not treated correctly (gestalt for instance), and while Wortox more of less just needed a bit of flavor in his skill tree to make him more in line with other characters Walter was desperately in need of a skill tree. The main issue now, which most certainly contributed to the delay of this update, is that no one has a clear direction on what these skill trees should be. This applies less to Wortox, but you can see just through the forums over the last few weeks that there is very little agreement on what role Wendy and Walter should be and what their skill tree should be. It seems the outcome of this commotion from the community was for klei to directly add ideas that the community came up with, but this caused the issue that, while some people wanted those additions, a lot of others didn't, which only perpetuated the backlash. Drinkable elixirs and abigail survivability come to mind when i mention this. Generally, I think that a large number of people will be unhappy with this update regardless of which direction klei chooses to take this update, and it raises a lot of questions from several different perspectives. Should abigail be tanky or evasive? should she be a boss killer or maintain her niche with crowd control? Both? All the ideas the community have come up with have been creative, but i think it throws klei off a lot and it would be beneficial to them to have our feedback be more focused. Fair criticism is a large part of this which we have already seen them crack down on this last month, which if i recall has never been like this since the wolfgang refresh. Hopefully I don't seem disrespectful saying this, but it would help for expectations to be lowered. Everyone has such creative visions for these characters but at best they can't all mix together and at worst it can lead klei down the wrong track, as complaints have already resulted in a lot of changes with varied results. It is hard to say there's any action that can be taken here, but there are so many different views and expectations for wendy's skill tree in particular that they simply cannot make everyone happy. The most optimistic view towards this is is that, even if you aren't fond of the skill tree, it will still add more to wendy either way, though I know this is not a real answer or solution. In the most optimal world everyone will get the Wendy they want, but just based on the forum I know that there will be a vocal crowd against any final version of Wendy that is decided even if they follow another crowd's perfect vision. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echsrick Posted January 14, 2025 Share Posted January 14, 2025 56 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said: This applies less to Wortox wortox mains at it again having the most......"pleasant"....conversations of the matter....jokes aside what i think is that klei sould not have use wendy for this update simply because walter was put into it aswell, like giving the most favourit character (wendy) with the least favourit character (walter) into one update is just something i will never understand why one would do that, and thats not even exagerations there, its full on truth seen not only here in the beta forums how much wendy threads showed up then wortox and walter COMBINED Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1785642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul7k Posted January 15, 2025 Share Posted January 15, 2025 Not gonna lie I am glad they are letting this cook longer. 8 points for just ammo crafts is kinda silly. Almost as ridiculous as 9 point investment for burning burnie. There is definitely room for something more on his tree. 2 hours ago, Echsrick said: wortox mains at it again having the most......"pleasant"....conversations of the matter....jokes aside what i think is that klei sould not have use wendy for this update simply because walter was put into it aswell, like giving the most favourit character (wendy) with the least favourit character (walter) into one update is just something i will never understand why one would do that, and thats not even exagerations there, its full on truth seen not only here in the beta forums how much wendy threads showed up then wortox and walter COMBINED I agree, but there is plenty of their threads as well,they just get frequently buried Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1785664 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echsrick Posted January 15, 2025 Share Posted January 15, 2025 3 minutes ago, Soul7k said: I agree, but there is plenty of their threads as well,they just get frequently buried i know it, litteraly my own thing is probably after page 5, just as any other good thing probably Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1785665 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radicaljoe Posted January 15, 2025 Share Posted January 15, 2025 2 hours ago, Echsrick said: wortox mains at it again having the most......"pleasant"....conversations of the matter....jokes aside what i think is that klei sould not have use wendy for this update simply because walter was put into it aswell, like giving the most favourit character (wendy) with the least favourit character (walter) into one update is just something i will never understand why one would do that, and thats not even exagerations there, its full on truth seen not only here in the beta forums how much wendy threads showed up then wortox and walter COMBINED I'd put money on the idea that there are more Wendy posts (not even including the deleted nasty ones) currently than Wortox+Walter threads combined and multiplied by 3. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1785684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radicaljoe Posted January 15, 2025 Share Posted January 15, 2025 I looked for fun, and I must say I am impressed. This beta alone has a total of 49 pages written about it. There are 242 total pages in existence since 2019. In 2 months there has been 20% of the total posts. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1785690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echsrick Posted January 15, 2025 Share Posted January 15, 2025 31 minutes ago, Radicaljoe said: I looked for fun, and I must say I am impressed. This beta alone has a total of 49 pages written about it. There are 242 total pages in existence since 2019. In 2 months there has been 20% of the total posts. and how many had each of the 3 characters? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1785694 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radicaljoe Posted January 15, 2025 Share Posted January 15, 2025 14 minutes ago, Echsrick said: and how many had each of the 3 characters? No clue, I just looked at the total pages, I have no clue how I would even begin to reasonably sort all 49 pages. Can't even imagine how many titles lack the character name. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1785698 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y0sH Posted January 15, 2025 Share Posted January 15, 2025 Honestly I feel like alot of the early Wendy posts were straight up bullying and being hostile to Klei so much so they made an official post to reinforce community guidelines. Klei just needs to make a decision based on what their vision is with some consideration from her playerbase, kinda just rip the bandaid off and get it over with. Us Wortox mains oddly enough pretty much agree on the same points more or less so much that a lot of our post are just bumps or compilations of others tagged for consolidation. I just fear for Waltuh and the 5 people that play him (joking) but it's hard to get a direction people want his character to go in with the absolute flood of "My Wendy Ideas:" posts. Walter has a lot of resemblance with Willow as far as a character that didn't really have an identity and kinda lackluster base kit but this leaves a lot of room to make the character amazing like Willow's Skilltree. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1785838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_NiX Posted January 15, 2025 Share Posted January 15, 2025 Wortox mains mostly discuss how should we help or poke. Most people agree that Wortox tree is pretty much done, just few tweaks and everyone would be happy. Most issues we got are with his unique "weapon". We kinda want to use it as a bugnet. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1785843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y0sH Posted January 15, 2025 Share Posted January 15, 2025 26 minutes ago, Master_NiX said: Wortox mains mostly discuss how should we help or poke. Most people agree that Wortox tree is pretty much done, just few tweaks and everyone would be happy. Most issues we got are with his unique "weapon". We kinda want to use it as a bugnet. Personally I don't really care for the bugnet thing because I for the life of me can't see the benefits of it. I just want his naughty self healing to be reverted to 20hp instead of 15hp and the ability to add planar damage to his "weapon" again and I'll be satisfied. Like literally just undo a couple of the changes they made and for the most part he can be released today in my opinion lol Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1785848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ0264 Posted January 15, 2025 Share Posted January 15, 2025 Wendy is already pretty powerful, i don't see why she need to do more then what she's good at. Having Wendy/Abagail weaker (evasive) against most bosses and stronger (tanky) against large hordes of tiny mobs is solid direction Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1785850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
yinjiu019 Posted January 16, 2025 Share Posted January 16, 2025 14 hours ago, JJ0264 said: Wendy is already pretty powerful, i don't see why she need to do more then what she's good at. Having Wendy/Abagail weaker (evasive) against most bosses and stronger (tanky) against large hordes of tiny mobs is solid direction bot...? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1786035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steorra Posted January 16, 2025 Share Posted January 16, 2025 14 hours ago, JJ0264 said: i don't see why she need to do more then what she's good at Was Wortox good at horde control or teammates teleport before the tree? 14 hours ago, Master_NiX said: We kinda want to use it as a bugnet. No "we". Bugnet is meaningless and it's unpopular for some Wortox players. I have no idea what makes some of us think to use a knapsack as a bugnet would be "good enough" for future knapsack improvements. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1786038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dingle Posted January 16, 2025 Share Posted January 16, 2025 1 minute ago, Steorra said: Was Wortox good at horde control or teammates teleport before the tree? He sucked before the tree though, and wasn't played much. This is like complaining that Walter got perks that give him new ammo types. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1786039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steorra Posted January 16, 2025 Share Posted January 16, 2025 6 minutes ago, Dingle said: He sucked before the tree though, and wasn't played much. This is like complaining that Walter got perks that give him new ammo types. I'm fine with all current buff for Wortox, even I could say I'm glad to see them and feeling satisfied with them. I was just questioning the logic here. The horde control was never a thing for Wortox before. And the team teleport ability was a thing for Wanda before, but not for Wortox. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1786040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dingle Posted January 16, 2025 Share Posted January 16, 2025 14 hours ago, Master_NiX said: Wortox mains mostly discuss how should we help or poke. Most people agree that Wortox tree is pretty much done, just few tweaks and everyone would be happy. Most issues we got are with his unique "weapon". We kinda want to use it as a bugnet. There's remaining issues I have with Wortox tree, like Cloudy Carmine. The big thing is just that Wortox players aren't demanding his entire tree get replaced with a stronger skill tree. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1786042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yifei_ Posted January 16, 2025 Share Posted January 16, 2025 1 minute ago, Dingle said: He sucked before the tree though, and wasn't played much. This is like complaining that Walter got perks that give him new ammo types. I have encountered quite a number of Wortox players in Public Server, and I have also seen many players who specialize in Wortox. I myself have also researched the playstyle of Wortox rushing pearl in the first autumn without the skill tree. Even without the skill tree, Wortox has considerable playability. I can't understand the view that "He sucked before the tree though, and wasn't played much." Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1786043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dingle Posted January 16, 2025 Share Posted January 16, 2025 2 minutes ago, Steorra said: I'm fine with all current buff for Wortox, even I could say I'm glad to see them and feeling satisfied with them. I was just questioning the logic here. The horde control was never a thing for Wortox before. And the team teleport ability was a thing for Wanda before, but not for Wortox. It was so he could gather souls better. It was pretty brutal before, not sure if you played him pre-beta or not. Imagine killing bees one at a time with a ham bat, forever. It got really, really annoying. It always irked me that Wanda was a much better teleporter character than Wortox. And then Winona became a better teleporter than Wortox, haha. Pre-beta, of course. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1786045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_NiX Posted January 16, 2025 Share Posted January 16, 2025 15 minutes ago, Steorra said: Was Wortox good at horde control or teammates teleport before the tree? No "we". Bugnet is meaningless and it's unpopular for some Wortox players. I have no idea what makes some of us think to use a knapsack as a bugnet would be "good enough" for future knapsack improvements. I guess I've been away for a bit and opinion has shifted. Oh well. I'd use knapsack as AOE bugnet/trap tool for small creatures. Honestly, I have no right to speak for everyone, since I am just "Nice" Wortox. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1786047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dingle Posted January 16, 2025 Share Posted January 16, 2025 2 minutes ago, Yifei_ said: I myself have also researched the playstyle of Wortox rushing pearl in the first autumn without the skill tree. Is that really a thing, pre skill tree? Why would you do that as Wortox instead of Wickerbottom? 2 minutes ago, Yifei_ said: Even without the skill tree, Wortox has considerable playability. I can't understand the view that "He sucked before the tree though, and wasn't played much." He wasn't played much, as per server statistics. I'll have to look up how low, but I think he was close to the bottom off top of head. I always wondered if pre skill tree Wortox really effectively saved time. The teleports, vs farming souls slowly forever. I know many wondered the same. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1786048 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yifei_ Posted January 16, 2025 Share Posted January 16, 2025 21 minutes ago, Dingle said: Is that really a thing, pre skill tree? Why would you do that as Wortox instead of Wickerbottom? In this video, there are no mods (except for Color Adjustment), starting with Wortox, and obtaining a pearl within 5 days. No skill tree. https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1GS421w73R/?spm_id_from=333.337.search-card.all.click&vd_source=f884ebc672791f945164ca8603a33ba8 Wortox's teleportation ability allows him to quickly obtain the Relic Chair blueprint and makes traveling to and from Crabby Hermit Island very convenient, saving a lot of time when rushing for the pearl. Actually, I prefer Wickerbottom for pearl speedrunning. The Angler's Survival Guide and Wickerbottom's inherent technological advantages are also great for Pearl speedruns. 21 minutes ago, Dingle said: He wasn't played much, as per server statistics. I'll have to look up how low, but I think he was close to the bottom off top of head. I always wondered if pre skill tree Wortox really effectively saved time. The teleports, vs farming souls slowly forever. I know many wondered the same. As for the frequency of Wortox gameplay, I suspect it's due to different playstyles among players from different regions. The reason I encounter many Wortox players is that in public servers, Wortox's team healing ability and quick support capability are quite outstanding. They also have excellent synergy with Wormwood and great potential for pearl speedrunning. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1786052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassielu Posted January 16, 2025 Share Posted January 16, 2025 19 hours ago, Dingle said: stronger Of all the improvements, this is only things you can see, "stronger" ? Measuring music by volume. You listen to Beethoven's ninth symphony, but complain why the commander doesn't sing along, using your narrow guess to people who are forced to listen to a hundred cars honking randomly, imagining that they are complaining because they don't think it's loud enough. I almost feel sad for you that you can't even fully understand and enjoy how good Wortox's skilltree is. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1786055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dingle Posted January 16, 2025 Share Posted January 16, 2025 14 minutes ago, Yifei_ said: In this video, there are no mods (except for Color Adjustment), starting with Wortox, and obtaining a pearl within 5 days. No skill tree. https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1GS421w73R/?spm_id_from=333.337.search-card.all.click&vd_source=f884ebc672791f945164ca8603a33ba8 Wortox's teleportation ability allows him to quickly obtain the Relic Chair blueprint and makes traveling to and from Crabby Hermit Island very convenient, saving a lot of time when rushing for the pearl. Actually, I prefer Wickerbottom for pearl speedrunning. The Angler's Survival Guide and Wickerbottom's inherent technological advantages are also great for Pearl speedruns. As for the frequency of Wortox gameplay, I suspect it's due to different playstyles among players from different regions. The reason I encounter many Wortox players is that in public servers, Wortox's team healing ability and quick support capability are quite outstanding. They also have excellent synergy with Wormwood and great potential for pearl speedrunning. I can't argue with the Wormwood synergy. I'll check out the video tomorrow, I am genuinely curious. 12 minutes ago, Cassielu said: Thats measuring music by volume. You listen to Beethoven's ninth symphony, but complain why the commander doesn't sing along, using your narrow guess to people who are forced to listen to a hundred cars honking randomly, imagining that they are complaining because they don't think it's loud enough. I almost feel sad for you that you can't even understand and enjoy how good Wortox's skilltree is. Lol what Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1786061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaorin yon Posted January 16, 2025 Share Posted January 16, 2025 There is indeed a lack of consensus in the community, but I believe that appreciating pleasant music/feeling relaxed about beautiful scenery is something that everyone can do. Klei doesn't need to meet the consensus of either party, they just need to make one content pleasing enough. Perhaps many people may not think that this is what they want, but at least everyone will admit that it is pleasing. The reason why Wendy has so many people offering opinions is not because Wendy players are greedy, but because the skill tree Wendy players see is full of noise. If Klei can come up with a pleasant skill tree like Votox, Wu Di, Winona, and Willow, even if the content of the skill tree is not the two directions you try to define in advance, it can still make the vast majority of players support Wendy's skill tree launch. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163137-lack-of-consensus-from-the-community-on-what-direction-to-take-for-this-update/#findComment-1786072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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