The biggest issue with Wendy skilltree is lack of connection (added more analyze!)

[Yifei_]

8 hours ago, Dingle said:

Oh wow, that's really messed up then.

I was joking at first, but if this is true, we really had 100+ Walter players vanish all of a sudden. Ones that were satisfied or very satisfied with his skill tree. They just disappeared with no trace.

What happened between poll v3 and v4 to make them do that? Or were they possibly all kidnapped?

Are there authorities that should be notified?

I didn't even want to reply to your message yesterday because your arguments were so logically flawed and childish. Arguing with you would not only risk deviating from the topic of the post but also seem utterly meaningless.

Let me tell you, I voted that I am very dissatisfied with Wendy and relatively satisfied with Walter. But I never posted or made any suggestions related to Walter throughout. The reason is simple: I don't think it's necessary. You question the accuracy of the voting results just because the outcomes for Wendy and Walter don't align with your personal views. That's a rather absurd and selfish idea.

I'll also tell you that fluctuations in the number of voters on the forum are quite normal. The changes to Wendy in Version 3 were quite poor, which is why many Wendy players chose to provide feedback on the forum. When players saw the vote that required them to evaluate the skill trees of three characters at the same time, they expressed their genuine opinions. The skill tree for Wendy in Version 4 has already been improved in the right direction, so some players think it's fine and see no need to come to the forum to give feedback again. So, the phenomenon is simply that there are fewer voters in Version 4, not that there are fewer Walter mains.

Let me make it clear one last time: Version 3 and Version 4 are two different versions of the skill tree vote. If players are less satisfied with Walter in Version 4 but more satisfied in Version 3, the conclusion should be that the changes to Walter need to be reconsidered and adjusted, not that all the votes are problematic.

It's ridiculous that I even have to write such an obvious passage and then translate it into English. Spending energy on this kind of thing is a waste of my time.

[WenericMember]

12 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

I didn't even want to reply to your message yesterday because your arguments were so logically flawed and childish. Arguing with you would not only risk deviating from the topic of the post but also seem utterly meaningless.

Let me tell you, I voted that I am very dissatisfied with Wendy and relatively satisfied with Walter. But I never posted or made any suggestions related to Walter throughout. The reason is simple: I don't think it's necessary. You question the accuracy of the voting results just because the outcomes for Wendy and Walter don't align with your personal views. That's a rather absurd and selfish idea.

I'll also tell you that fluctuations in the number of voters on the forum are quite normal. The changes to Wendy in Version 3 were quite poor, which is why many Wendy players chose to provide feedback on the forum. When players saw the vote that required them to evaluate the skill trees of three characters at the same time, they expressed their genuine opinions. The skill tree for Wendy in Version 4 has already been improved in the right direction, so some players think it's fine and see no need to come to the forum to give feedback again. So, the phenomenon is simply that there are fewer voters in Version 4, not that there are fewer Walter mains.

Let me make it clear one last time: Version 3 and Version 4 are two different versions of the skill tree vote. If players are less satisfied with Walter in Version 4 but more satisfied in Version 3, the conclusion should be that the changes to Walter need to be reconsidered and adjusted, not that all the votes are problematic.

It's ridiculous that I even have to write such an obvious passage and then translate it into English. Spending energy on this kind of thing is a waste of my time.

My 2 cents about those polls, my best guess is that the initial polls were based off of what was there, rather than what wasn't.  Discussion of Wendy's tree has changed a lot over the last month even with no changes before starting to circle, so people's views change. The terrorise command, for example, despite receiving no changes throughout beta, went from a useless skill to debatable broken as people explored more and realized you could stunlock mid tier mobs Abigail originally struggled with.

Walter's tree makes a decent first impression, with slingshot mods, ammo types and Woby skill's being a good core in theory. However, when people explored the tree more, they found that a lot of it was pretty redundant - a bunch of slowdown rounds, damage upgrades, etc. People also began to notice what wasn't there, being the camping skills, which is less obvious at a glance.  Additionally, as a ranged specialist, his skill tree has nothing to form a comparison off of.

In comparison, Wendy's tree had very apparent glaring flaws from day 1. 100 temp hp was pretty much nothing, potion duration is never an issue, so on. It was immediately obvious what was wrong. Her character archetype also has overlap with Wigfrid and Willow,  making direct comparisons possible to immediately highlight failings - Picnic Casket not existing, for example, in comparison to Wigfrid's canister, and Willow getting unconditional doubled HP, while Wendy got conditional 100.

 

[Yifei_]

8 hours ago, Swiyss said:

Say I used the regular abi to clear low health high quantity minions in the early game, then after doing the clear, I can upgrade her whenever I want to and use her to kill all bosses I need for their items and blueprint, then detransform her later. Might be harder in a multiplayer setting where wicker would use the full moon every day, but if you communicate with her, she can just stop using it, we'll need the new moon for the shadow pieces anyway.

Yes, my main concern is the issues in multiplayer servers. It's difficult to ensure what the lunar phase will be like when you log on, and both the Lunar Grimoire and Moon Storm can interfere with the normal lunar phases, making the already complex transformation process even more difficult. In the Cave, it's even impossible to change Abigail's form at all. Klei should provide some transformation methods that are more costly but quicker and more convenient (I wouldn't mind even if it requires more materials like infused moon shards, pure brilliance, etc.), rather than being tied to the Moon Dial.

[Dingle]

1 hour ago, Yifei_ said:

You question the accuracy of the voting results just because the outcomes for Wendy and Walter don't align with your personal views. That's a rather absurd and selfish idea.

At first (when the polls were freshly made), I was making fun of the polls because it was ludicrously obvious that it was mostly Wendy players, voting on the two other characters. Otherwise, I thought Walter would have gotten way, way more "I don't feel strongly either way" votes.

I have since rethought this. I realized it's really pointless to argue about this in face of the real problem: We had over a hundred Walter mains leave the beta forums in a very short time span between v3 and v4. Were they truly that angry at the hotfix? If so, that would surely mean they'd come back in droves to vote again for the v4 poll. But they didn't.

That's when I truly started to get worried. Something is terribly wrong 

1 hour ago, Yifei_ said:

I'll also tell you that fluctuations in the number of voters on the forum are quite normal.

Fluctuations of over 150 people? All the other polls, before and after, are consistently much smaller. That really doesn't seem like a fluctuation, sorry.

1 hour ago, Yifei_ said:

The changes to Wendy in Version 3 were quite poor, which is why many Wendy players chose to provide feedback on the forum. When players saw the vote that required them to evaluate the skill trees of three characters at the same time, they expressed their genuine opinions. The skill tree for Wendy in Version 4 has already been improved in the right direction, so some players think it's fine and see no need to come to the forum to give feedback again. So, the phenomenon is simply that there are fewer voters in Version 4, not that there are fewer Walter mains.

Why were the Wendy players so happy with the other character's trees? There was that "I don't feel strongly" option. If your theory is right, that would have been much higher for the other characters, given the sheer number of Wendy players, especially at that time. Sorry, I can't see the logic of what you're claiming, at all.

1 hour ago, Yifei_ said:

Let me make it clear one last time: Version 3 and Version 4 are two different versions of the skill tree vote. If players are less satisfied with Walter in Version 4 but more satisfied in Version 3, the conclusion should be that the changes to Walter need to be reconsidered and adjusted, not that all the votes are problematic

This conflicts with what you said, though. Re: the votes being much lower because it was mostly Wendy players angry about the hotfix during v3. If that was truly the case, it would mean that their sheer number would have meant that the v3 Walter feedback was meaningless. So your logic is very inconsistent, you can't have it both ways.

Respectfully, your theories about the polls are lacking in internal logic, when you think about it much.

1 hour ago, WenericMember said:

Walter's tree makes a decent first impression, with slingshot mods, ammo types and Woby skill's being a good core in theory. However, when people explored the tree more, they found that a lot of it was pretty redundant - a bunch of slowdown rounds, damage upgrades, etc. People also began to notice what wasn't there, being the camping skills, which is less obvious at a glance.  Additionally, as a ranged specialist, his skill tree has nothing to form a comparison off of.

I don't think it took Walter players weeks to figure this out. The "decent first impression" theory also simply gets slammed down by the v2 poll.

[Echsrick]

i get the feeling that maybe a closed beta test with most trusted people would have worked out better for....anyones sanity realy, because i can see that the arguing just goes into circles all the time between one side and the other, wich may just end up into deleting commends or even just gettin a thread locked down completly....and this happend way more often this beta update then i can remember the other betas

[WereBruhver]

12 minutes ago, Dingle said:

At first I was making fun of the polls because it was ludicrously obvious that it was mostly Wendy players, voting on the two other characters. Otherwise Walter would have gotten way, way more "I don't feel strongly either way" votes.

But then I realized it's really pointless to argue about this face of the real problem: We had over a hundred Walter mains leave the beta forums in a very short time span between v3 and v4. Were they truly that angry at the hotfix? If so, that would surely mean they'd come back in droves to vote again for the v4 poll. But they didn't.

That's when I truly started to get worried. Something is terribly wrong 

Fluctuations of over 150 people? All the other polls, before and after, are consistently much smaller. That really doesn't seem like a fluctuation, sorry.

Why were the Wendy players so happy with the other character's trees? There was that "I don't feel strongly" option. If your theory is right, that would have been much higher for the other characters, given the sheer number of Wendy players, especially at that time. Sorry, I can't see the logic of what you're claiming, at all.

You are not wrong about feeling suspicious, JoeW and Klei as a whole choose to act ignorant towards the clear brigading of an outside forum here because it easier for them as a business to act this way than deal with backlash, which is funny since  the way they are dealing with this situation is enabling horrible behaviour which will probably end up resulting in a bigger backlash sooner or later. 

[Yifei_]

47 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Fluctuations of over 150 people? All the other polls, before and after, are consistently much smaller. That really doesn't seem like a fluctuation, sorry.

There is absolutely no problem with that. Wendy has a fairly large player base, and with such a large number of players, I don't think there's any issue with a bit of variation in opinions.

 

56 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Were they truly that angry at the hotfix? If so, that would surely mean they'd come back in droves to vote again for the v4 poll. But they didn't.

You are still imposing your own opinions and habits on others. Whether to vote is a personal freedom, and a significant portion of players may not even be aware of the fourth version of the poll. Why should everyone be expected to visit the forum daily to check for new posts? The poor skill tree in the third version made it feel urgent and important to participate in feedback on the forum, while the skill tree in the fourth version led some players to feel there was no need to visit the forum again. Why should these players be required to visit the forum and participate in voting according to your demands when they do not see it as necessary?

 

47 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Why were the Wendy players so happy with the other character's trees? There was that "I don't feel strongly" option. If your theory is right, that would have been much higher for the other characters, given the sheer number of Wendy players, especially at that time. Sorry, I can't see the logic of what you're claiming, at all.

Everyone has the right to express their own point of view. You are still attacking those who voted "satisfied" based on your belief that "Walter's skill tree is not good." I can tell you why I voted satisfied. On one hand, the experience of playing without a skill tree for Walter was extremely poor, but the skill tree has greatly compensated for that aspect. On the other hand, Walter's skill tree is much better compared to Wendy's.
 

48 minutes ago, Dingle said:

This conflicts with what you said, though. Re: the votes being much lower because it was mostly Wendy players angry about the hotfix during v3. If that was truly the case, it would mean that their sheer number would have meant that the v3 Walter feedback was meaningless. So your logic is very inconsistent, you can't have it both ways.

Respectfully, your theories about the polls are lacking in internal logic, when you think about it much.

You are still evading the fundamental issue: You cannot deny others' voting rights and opinions just because you are dissatisfied with Walter's skill tree. Every player has the right to express their own views. Satisfaction is satisfaction, and the reasons behind it may involve comparisons with other characters' skill trees or experiences with Walter without a skill tree. You are trying to force voters to think and vote the way you do. Furthermore, the third and fourth versions are not the same voting content; the fourth version made adjustments to all three characters, and as players progress in the game, they will discover more about the issues with Walter's skill tree. There is nothing wrong with such a change in proportion.

[Dingle]

20 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

There is absolutely no problem with that. Wendy has a fairly large player base, and with such a large number of players, I don't think there's any issue with a bit of variation in opinions.

150 people?

20 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

You are still imposing your own opinions and habits on others. Whether to vote is a personal freedom, and a significant portion of players may not even be aware of the fourth version of the poll. Why should everyone be expected to visit the forum daily to check for new posts? The poor skill tree in the third version made it feel urgent and important to participate in feedback on the forum, while the skill tree in the fourth version led some players to feel there was no need to visit the forum again. Why should these players be required to visit the forum and participate in voting according to your demands when they do not see it as necessary?

150+ people just showing up for one poll...

20 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

Everyone has the right to express their own point of view. You are still attacking those who voted "satisfied" based on your belief that "Walter's skill tree is not good." I can tell you why I voted satisfied. On one hand, the experience of playing without a skill tree for Walter was extremely poor, but the skill tree has greatly compensated for that aspect. On the other hand, Walter's skill tree is much better compared to Wendy's.

 

You are still evading the fundamental issue: You cannot deny others' voting rights and opinions just because you are dissatisfied with Walter's skill tree. Every player has the right to express their own views. Satisfaction is satisfaction, and the reasons behind it may involve comparisons with other characters' skill trees or experiences with Walter without a skill tree. You are trying to force voters to think and vote the way you do. Furthermore, the third and fourth versions are not the same voting content; the fourth version made adjustments to all three characters, and as players progress in the game, they will discover more about the issues with Walter's skill tree. There is nothing wrong with such a change in proportion.

Why did the majority of Wendy players vote Satisfied for Walter, though? Seems really, really oddm

Why were the Walter players also unsatisfied in the v2 poll, then?

Why are you simultaneously claiming that the shift in Walter satisfaction proportions was due to their changing attitude, while simultaneously admitting that most of the Walter votes in the poll were from Wendy players? Doesn't that invalidate your claim of the Walter poll meaningfully conveying what Walter players thought, if it was mostly Wendy players, by your own admission?

Sorry, your arguments really sound silly on close inspection. Respectfully, there just isn't much logical consistency, here.

41 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

i get the feeling that maybe a closed beta test with most trusted people would have worked out better for....anyones sanity realy, because i can see that the arguing just goes into circles all the time between one side and the other, wich may just end up into deleting commends or even just gettin a thread locked down completly....and this happend way more often this beta update then i can remember the other betas

I don't think anyone in this thread is being impolite. I don't think it would get locked.

[Yifei_]

5 minutes ago, Dingle said:

150+ people just showing up for one poll...

Every user has the choice to decide whether to post something, and voting is the simplest way to express oneself. I have already explained the possible reasons why so many people might participate in the voting. If you have any further questions about the number of participants, you can read my response more carefully or ask Joew.

6 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Why did the majority of Wendy players vote Satisfied for Walter, though? Seems really, really oddm

Why were the Walter players also unsatisfied in the v2 poll, then?

Why are you simultaneously claiming that the shift in Walter satisfaction proportions was due to their changing attitude, while simultaneously admitting that most of the Walter votes in the poll were from Wendy players? Doesn't that invalidate your claim of the Walter poll meaningfully conveying what Walter players thought, if it was mostly Wendy players, by your own admission?

Sorry, your arguments really sound silly on close inspection. Respectfully, there just isn't much logical consistency, here.

When discussing this vote, I never categorized the player community into Wendy players and Walter players. I simply stated that each player has different views on different characters. I don't see any point in rigidly dividing the player community the way you have done. Every player has the right to express their opinions and views by participating in the vote. There is nothing wrong with players commenting based on their own experiences. On the contrary, it is you who are attacking the accuracy and freedom of the players' participation in the vote.
Moreover, the second, third, and fourth versions of the vote are entirely different in content. It is meaningless to mix them up and discuss them as if they were the same thing.

[Steorra]

1 hour ago, WereBruhver said:

JoeW and Klei as a whole choose to act ignorant towards the clear brigading of an outside forum

1. I suppose that you might know it's easy to check if some amounts of account are duplicated for just one poll or not by checking their signed times and IP. And you know that Klei or Joew could do this right?

2. Could I read your message like this as an accusation which says that Joew has checked those accounts which voted in the V3 poll, and the result was that most of them are simply smurfs, but Joew choose to lies in the screenshot above?

[WereBruhver]

2 hours ago, Dingle said:

150 people?

150+ people just showing up for one poll...

Sorry, your arguments really sound silly on close inspection. Respectfully, there just isn't much logical consistency, here.

He knows his logic is lacking, it is hard to convice someone  that 150 pool voters appearing all of a sudden for a pool and then not appearing again is organic behaviour/not weird, we never had such big pool numbers in years here in the forums. He also knows people from an outside forum came to Klei forums in droves to vote in that pool since they were urged to do so, there was a post in that same outside forum with a link to the pool urging people  to go vote for Wendy, he knows it because both the pool creator and him are frequent users of the same forum, I have seen them there. 

[Dingle]

5 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

Every user has the choice to decide whether to post something, and voting is the simplest way to express oneself. I have already explained the possible reasons why so many people might participate in the voting. If you have any further questions about the number of participants, you can read my response more carefully or ask Joew.

When discussing this vote, I never categorized the player community into Wendy players and Walter players. I simply stated that each player has different views on different characters. I don't see any point in rigidly dividing the player community the way you have done. Every player has the right to express their opinions and views by participating in the vote. There is nothing wrong with players commenting based on their own experiences. On the contrary, it is you who are attacking the accuracy and freedom of the players' participation in the vote.
Moreover, the second, third, and fourth versions of the vote are entirely different in content. It is meaningless to mix them up and discuss them as if they were the same thing.

You were the one who said that the big v3 numbers were from Wendy players, though.

Are you trying to make your argument really obtuse, so you don't have to say that Wendy players don't vastly outnumber Walter players on these beta forums, and in general? I don't think anyone will buy that haha.

I wasn't mixing them up, though. I was saying it made no sense for the Walter votes to be around satisfied in v3, but nowhere near that in v2 and v4. Unless it was just mostly votes from Wendy players that voted for that instead of the "no strong opinion" option.

[Yifei_]

1 minute ago, Dingle said:

You were the one who said that the big v3 numbers were from Wendy players, though.

I have never divided the player community. It is you who insist on categorizing players into Wendy players and Walter players.

[Steorra]

7 minutes ago, WereBruhver said:

there was a post in that same outside forum with a link to the pool urging people  to go vote

I'm sorry, but I have no idea about what's wrong with this thing.

Do you mean that outsiders who have different options with yours SHOULD NOT give their feedback in a poll on this forum?

[Koomin]

3 hours ago, Steorra said:

I'm sorry, but I have no idea about what's wrong with this thing.

Do you mean that outsiders who have different options with yours SHOULD NOT give their feedback in a poll on this forum?

I think what they are saying is that the polls were being linked with instructions to vote a certain way, and in posts or locations where a certain opinion was more prominent.
It would be like me holding an election on a public Internet page, but only actually providing the link to vote as a response to posts by people supporting me, and leaving everyone else to maybe happen to find it on their own.  And maybe telling my friends to vote for me and giving them the link too.  Of course I would win, since people not supporting me couldn't really find the election to vote.

Whether or not this actually happened I have no idea and I can't access those locations, but that is the general idea I think.  If only the "outsiders" with a certain opinion were able to access the poll, of course that would be wrong and ruin the poll.

[Steorra]

8 minutes ago, Koomin said:

It would be like me holding an election on a public Internet page, but only actually providing the link to vote as a response to posts by people supporting me, and leaving everyone else to maybe happen to find it on their own.  And maybe telling my friends to vote for me and giving them the link too.  Of course I would win, since people not supporting me couldn't really find the election to vote.

This was not happened to those outsiders.

I was see many similar threads, they're just like 

Title: there's a new poll about if beta skill trees satisfy you or not.

Words inside: here's the link, whatever opinions you have, please go vote to show your voices. If you give no voice then devs would know nothing about your opinion.

Also have to say that there's similar poll happened to thise outsiders in their forum, and the result was similar to here. I mean, dissatisfied to Wendy's tree.

[Picklesaurus]

40 minutes ago, Steorra said:

This was not happened to those outsiders.

I think there is a problem with your translation and his wording, I don't  think he is  talking about a forum of outsiders, I think he is talking about an outsider forum, by that he probably means a forum that is not Klei's forum.

[Steorra]

22 minutes ago, Picklesaurus said:

I think there is a problem with your translation and his wording, I don't  think he is  talking about a forum of outsiders, I think he is talking about an outsider forum, by that he probably means a forum that is not Klei's forum.

Not sure what difference between outsider and outsider forum to you.

If a poll happened in an outsider forum which gave a result some Klei forum member is dislike to, then did the members of that outsider forum have a right to come Klei forum to vote for their opinions?

 Or did you mean that members of unofficial forum have no right to come official forum to vote for their opinions?

The current argument stage is more like this for me:

There's an unofficial forum called as Tieba or Yieba or whatever, which have more actively players than Klei official forum. And a poll happened on that unofficial forum, which gave a completely different result with Klei forum.

Laterly, someone linked a similar poll happened on Klei forum to that unofficial forum. Then many members of the unofficial forum comes to Klei forum to vote for their opinions. And they were more impactful to the poll results since the amounts of the unofficial members is far more than here. And this resulted the poll happened here ended in a unexpected result for members of here. However, the poll happened here still shows a similar result as the poll happened in that unofficial forum.

Then members of here feeling unfair, unreal or other something about this event.

[Cassielu]

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