What change you prefer for current Sisturn III?

[Steorra]

We don't talking about skills dividing, balance compromise, mechanic rework here. For making the survey simple, the options only means "the final effect result of the Sistur III".

[Evelo]

Simply giving her 1200 would work, No need to make it a temporary thing like the first iteration. But removing the player tag also makes her not almost unkillable. Seems like a good middle ground.

[Reiko24]

Just now, Evelo said:

Simply giving her 1200 would work, No need to make it a temporary thing like the first iteration. But removing the player tag also makes her not almost unkillable. Seems like a good middle ground.

1200 is literally the player tag, but for every single mob in the game instead of only bosses.

[WenericMember]

5 minutes ago, Reiko24 said:

1200 is literally the player tag, but for every single mob in the game instead of only bosses.

Not quite, it restores spectral cure-all to it's original potency, instead of doubling it like now.

7 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Simply giving her 1200 would work, No need to make it a temporary thing like the first iteration. But removing the player tag also makes her not almost unkillable. Seems like a good middle ground.

That just completely overtunes Abby against hordes though. The terrorise skill buffs her significantly against hordes, she doesn't need a second skill to further increase it.

Just go all into make it a second mode for Abby that's less reliant on potions.

[Evelo]

No one is going to be happy this patch. I'm of the opinion people need to shut it or remove Wendy at this point.  The first skill tree for Wendy was pretty good, albeit the flower shroud was busted. But that wasn't good enough. Now she is incredibly powerful, too powerful I think, and some think she isn't strong enough. No one will be happy.

[WenericMember]

8 minutes ago, Evelo said:

remove Wendy at this point. 

This rhetoric is so incredibly unhelpful and frustrating.

No, they're not going to remove any character from the game. No, they're not going to remove the most popular character from the game. No, we shouldn't be in a state of "give up" imporving her tree, for both buffs and nerfs.

The first skill tree of Wendy had around 80% of the skills being almost useless. She only had around 15% of people happy with it.

No-one will be happy about anything everything, but to completely give up on making thing's better isn't  the right way to handle things.

[Debruh]

14 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

This rhetoric is so incredibly unhelpful and frustrating.

No, they're not going to remove any character from the game. No, they're not going to remove the most popular character from the game. No, we shouldn't be in a state of "give up" imporving her tree, for both buffs and nerfs.

The first skill tree of Wendy had around 80% of the skills being almost useless. She only had around 15% of people happy with it.

No-one will be happy about anything everything, but to completely give up on making thing's better isn't  the right way to handle things.

Eve is based but I have seen them state the 'first skill tree of Wendy was good' multiple times, and I'm pretty confused.

They always mention the floral shroud being busted but.. not gestalt Abby soloing bosses?

Longer vex time Cursed Vexation was good?

The old elixir skills were good?

Burst damage shadow Abby was good?

What?

[EctoPlaza]

1 minute ago, Debruh said:

Eve is based but I have seen them state the 'first skill tree of Wendy was good' multiple times, and I'm pretty confused.

They always mention the floral shroud being busted but.. not gestalt Abby soloing bosses?

Longer vex time Cursed Vexation was good?

The old elixir skills were good?

Burst damage shadow Abby was good?

What?

From what I've seen about them, they seem to prefer skilltrees that don't provide much.

[WenericMember]

1 minute ago, Debruh said:

Eve is based but I have seen them state the 'first skill tree of Wendy was good' multiple times, and I'm pretty confused.

They always mention the floral shroud being busted but.. not gestalt Abby soloing bosses?

Longer vex time Cursed Vexation was good?

The old elixir skills were good?

Burst damage shadow Abby was good?

What?

Yeah, their takes are usually pretty good, but V1 of Wendy's skill tree was rough.

You're also forgetting:

• Blessed Sisturn III was capped at a measly 100hp
• There were 3 skills dedicated to doubling potion duration
• Abigail only got 5 planar defense from tier one alignment skills.
• Dark Petals 1 was only converting evil petals to regular petal, when the dark petals produced by graves was less than the petals needed to produce them.

It was ROUGH

 

[Debruh]

1 minute ago, EctoPlaza said:

From what I've seen about them, they seem to prefer skilltrees that don't provide much.

Might be wrong, but from what I have gathered. They seem to just have a differing view on the idea of a skilltree.

Instead of it introducing new abilities, they seem to rather it improve already existing abilities, with the new abilities getting changed into the base kit.

8 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

You're also forgetting:

• Blessed Sisturn III was capped at a measly 100hp
• There were 3 skills dedicated to doubling potion duration
• Abigail only got 5 planar defense from tier one alignment skills.
• Dark Petals 1 was only converting evil petals to regular petal, when the dark petals produced by graves was less than the petals needed to produce them.

It was ROUGH

Completely forgkt about 5 planar defense and dark petals 1 

The 'elixir skills' was me reffering to the doubling duration, but having no idea how to say it lol.

100 hp was changed pretty quickly tbf. Shadow Abby was also changed pretty quickly, but that was so bad from the start I had to mention it. At least the 100 hp only need a number change.

Even worse, after a lot of the stuff was changed. The amount of bugs and crashes were wild. Crashes from gestalt>Abby. Shadow Abby running out. Bugs when it came to Sisturn |||  dam

[Echsrick]

40 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

remove any character from the game

warbucks has been removed before

[WenericMember]

8 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

warbucks has been removed before

Fair enough, I forgot about solo Don't starve.  I think that was due to being culturally insensitive tho, so a special case.

Edit: It was... also during early access. So you could argue he was never added to the game.

16 minutes ago, Debruh said:

Completely forgkt about 5 planar defense and dark petals 1 

The 'elixir skills' was me reffering to the doubling duration, but having no idea how to say it lol.

100 hp was changed pretty quickly tbf. Shadow Abby was also changed pretty quickly, but that was so bad from the start I had to mention it. At least the 100 hp only need a number change.

Even worse, after a lot of the stuff was changed. The amount of bugs and crashes were wild. Crashes from gestalt>Abby. Shadow Abby running out. Bugs when it came to Sisturn |||  dam

Ah, mb.

It certainly was a wild ride, but It's cool to see how far the tree has developed since then.

I think what makes the 100hp so comical to me is that it was less than a single hit from a boss.

[Evelo]

2 hours ago, Debruh said:

Might be wrong, but from what I have gathered. They seem to just have a differing view on the idea of a skilltree.

Instead of it introducing new abilities, they seem to rather it improve already existing abilities, with the new abilities getting changed into the base kit.

You are completely right.

 

2 hours ago, WenericMember said:

This rhetoric is so incredibly unhelpful and frustrating.

I know, but talking about the same thing over and over and over and over again isn't helpful either when there are clearly two camps and neither party will budge. Compromise to find middle ground n such. I'd be happy with that but whenever I or someone else offers a middle ground it is shot down in some way.

[Soul7k]

56 minutes ago, Evelo said:

I know, but talking about the same thing over and over and over and over again isn't helpful either when there are clearly two camps and neither party will budge. Compromise to find middle ground n such. I'd be happy with that but whenever I or someone else offers a middle ground it is shot down in some way.

it's really weird. on one hand changing the health would make her stronger against everything else, (which normally isn't a problem because Abigail obliterates normal mobs regardless) while bringing the cure all more in line, which I don't even think is op because she cant even solo a boss with it anyways(unless you are cure all double hp spamming which is resource/time intensive and probably should be tweaked on its own). On the other hand reducing effectiveness of healing while the buff is active would reduce effectiveness against normal mobs and add the tedium of going back to base to remove and add pedals as needed. At this point I'm just sitting and waiting to see what they cook up, though I'd be a tad disappointed if it were nerfed.

[DVGMedia]

1200 hp lvl 4 abby is just the easiest way to do it.
I say 1200 because it fits with the level up scheme abby has doubling in hp each level 150 300 600 1200
Though this lvl 4 should only be accessible through the sisturn. It shouldn't happen via revive elixer Abby can revive up to lvl three but it will be time before she levels up to lvl 4 like how she does naturally.

Not only does having higher max health make cure all back to what it was. It also lets abby have time with some of the other potions instead of needing to constantly be healed
Having a larger health pool means you don't need to heal as often. Allowing her to use her other potions more freely.

 

3 hours ago, Soul7k said:

. on one hand changing the health would make her stronger against everything else, (which normally isn't a problem because Abigail obliterates normal mobs regardless) while bringing the cure all more in line

This one is also the case. People would say she would not have a problem with regular mobs anymore. However, she never really did?
The only times she ever really had problems with them were in very specific situations. Like daytime frograins. Tallforts fullmoon werepigs?

the only mob situation that this buff would make abby better at would be dealing with the massive rook filled areas in the ruins and atrium as well as worms.
And well just her daytime survivability

[Koomin]

A single skill point for double hp and potentially the bonuses of level 4 is way too much for me.  This is the type of thing that makes me think that Wendy's skill tree gives way too much for each skill point, and takes away my interest from the character. 

I generally don't like comparing characters, but Willow's Bernie health skills are reasonable and give 15% extra health each.  15% with not a single other bonus, compared to 100% and extra light and stuff being suggested here. 

I really can't understand the reasoning behind this.  Maybe if it cost 3 skill points for that specific skill or something instead of 1?

[Soul7k]

4 minutes ago, Koomin said:

A single skill point for double hp and potentially the bonuses of level 4 is way too much for me.  This is the type of thing that makes me think that Wendy's skill tree gives way too much for each skill point, and takes away my interest from the character. 

I generally don't like comparing characters, but Willow's Bernie health skills are reasonable and give 15% extra health each.  15% with not a single other bonus, compared to 100% and extra light and stuff being suggested here. 

I really can't understand the reasoning behind this.  Maybe if it cost 3 skill points for that specific skill or something instead of 1?

i wouldn't compare the two. I cant carry 3 Abigails and one tap them with a sewing kit

[Koomin]

2 minutes ago, Soul7k said:

i wouldn't compare the two. I cant carry 3 Abigails and one tap them with a sewing kit

You can one tap her with ghastly experience. 

Regardless, my point is that this is way too powerful for a single insight point.  We have all the other skills trees with stuff like "mushrooms Wormwood plants take 10% less time to grow", and then are coming in hot here with "Abigail doubles her health and gets level 4 bonuses". 

[Steorra]

33 minutes ago, Koomin said:

You can one tap her with ghastly experience. 

Tbh i believe that both side of players would agree that to rework or delete ghastly experience if it could be a neccesary cost of balance.

33 minutes ago, Koomin said:

mushrooms Wormwood plants take 10% less time to grow

This one should to be buff but not to nerf or to limit other skills... Seriously.

To make a middle skill of a skill line become "filler" like but make the end top skill of the line become stronger is generally a balance way in most other rpg games, I don't quite like it but it could be acceptable for me.

33 minutes ago, Koomin said:

Regardless, my point is that this is way too powerful for a single insight point

I personally ok with any compromise of these below if the compromise is needed for balance sake:

1. To make extra HP become invalid or decreased when Cursed Vex activated by whatever the method.

2. To make 200 HP bonus merge into Sisturn II, to make other 400 as a replacement for current Sisturn III

3. To make the new Sisturn III effect of level 4 or 1200 HP become only valid for normal form Abi by whatever method. Since Lunar Abi should focusing on 1v1 and survival by her specific mechanic she need no more HP enhancement if she could get fix, Shadow Abi should focusing on 1vhordes and focusing on theoric DPS which means she should be more vulnerable than other forms. Then to make the extra basic survival enhancement only be viable for normal form Abi would be fair.

4. To make Cursed Vex give an extra damage taken downside effect for its original effect. As a balance cost for Sisturn III (whether it rework or not)

5. Rework Sisturn III as to give 250 extra HP and add Sisturn IV as to give 350, extra HP

All amount details above are immature but only for examples.

I wonder what you prefer or if you have some other ideas about it.

[Koomin]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

Tbh i believe that both side of players would agree that to rework or delete ghastly experience if it could be a neccesary cost of balance.

This should be buff but not to nerf or to limit other skills... Seriously.

To make a middle skill of a skill line become "filler" like but make the end top skill of the line become stronger is generally a balance way in most other rpg games, I don't quite like it but it could be acceptable for me.

I personally ok with any compromise of these below if the compromise is needed for balance sake:

1. To make extra HP become invalid or decreased when Cursed Vex activated by whatever the method.

2. To make 200 HP bonus merge into Sisturn II and other 400 as a replacement for current Sisturn III

3. To make the new Sisturn III effect of level 4 or 1200 HP become only valid for normal form Abi by whatever method. Since Lunar Abi should focusing on 1v1 and survival by her specific mechanic, Shadow Abi should focusing on 1vhordes and focusing on theoric DPS which means she should be more vulnerable than other forms. Then to make the extra basic survival enhancement only be viable for normal form Abi would be fair.

4. To make Cursed Vex give extra damage taken downside for its original effect. As a balance cost for Sisturn III (whether it rework or not)

5. Rework Sisturn III as to give 250 extra HP and add Sisturn IV as to give 350, extra HP

All amount details above are immature but only for examples.

I wonder what you prefer or if you have some other ideas about it.

I hadn't thought of that 5th one, that actually seems pretty good.  The skill tree as a whole seems to give too much for each point, and 600 health for one point is extreme.  Separating it into separate skills each giving extra health is a good solution.

I agree with your points too about extra damage taken as Shadow Abigail, but not sure if it's completely on topic.

Some of the other ones seem a bit too complex in my opinion even if they would work, and would be harder to figure out what is going on in game without reading a wiki or something.

[Steorra]

9 hours ago, WenericMember said:

The terrorise skill buffs her significantly against hordes

Tbh I guess the scaring effect of Huant is already far enough for against hordes even without extra survival enhancement for Abi.

To give Abi extra survival enhancement is just give another choice for anti-hordes if we don't talking about boss fightings. The huant command also have other effect which means it won't being invalid if it becomes not neccesary for hordes killing.

8 minutes ago, Koomin said:

Some of the other ones seem a bit too complex in my opinion even if they would work, and would be harder to figure out what is going on in game without reading a wiki or something

I still prefer to makes normal form of Abi has her specific advantage than shadow and lunar one... Though it might be a bit complex.

And for these topic we talked these days it seems we all ignored what change would comes for other petals decoration (specific for dark petal), I guess it would be a spare space for future balance if some complex adjustments were needed.

12 minutes ago, Koomin said:

I agree with your points too about extra damage taken as Shadow Abigail, but not sure if it's completely on topic.

I mean, it should be a balance cost if Klei think the 1200 HP sisturn III would be a bit overpower in future. So it's on topic imo.

I prefer to have great effect for per skills especially for a toppest skill of the line, if it could be imbalance, to add some downside to it as a cost (like you could reach level 4 of Abi by learnt Sisturn III but it only activated when Sisturn was decorated by normal petals, which means you have to give up other decorations effect. Or, Sisturn III might brings 1200 HP to Abi but lesser her light radius or something other downside whatever), this would be more interesting than simple amounts... The two level extra HP skills of BERNIE! were a bit boring for me personally.

[DVGMedia]

2 hours ago, Steorra said:

Tbh I guess the scaring effect of Huant is already far enough for against hordes even without extra survival enhancement for Abi.

To give Abi extra survival enhancement is just give another choice for anti-hordes if we don't talking about boss fightings. The huant command also have other effect which means it won't being invalid if it becomes not neccesary for hordes killing.

I think that is whats important which is  the way to build  the character.  I think its important to have things that kind of do the same thing but differently.  willows affinity are both damage dealing spells that do just about the same damage. yet one is more burst and less committal. while the other is more committal but better in crowds. Each one is useful in their own right.   

 

3 hours ago, Koomin said:

I really can't understand the reasoning behind this.  Maybe if it cost 3 skill points for that specific skill or something instead of 1?

It kind of already does since its the final point of that branch of the tree. Players need to buy the other two sisturn perks in order to get that one. Which some people may consider as throw away points since its just increased spoilage time and the sanity reduction.  I think thats kind of fair for the last one being strong.

[Thieverpedia]

In general, I'm fine with Lune Tree Blossoms being usable with the Sisturn. It opens plenty of potential for other flowers like Cactus Flowers, Dark Petals, and Mourning Glories to have effects tied to them via depositing them into it. What I'm not fine with is that Lune Tree Blossoms are REQUIRED to give Abigail a skill that should have been included in her kit without skills. It's not a matter of avoiding work to chop the trees and collect them en masse. The problem is that it's unnecessarily tedious. You need to chop the trees, use a bug net to catch the lunar moths, plant them, and wait around to repeat the process. It's extra steps for something that's actively detrimental for not doing it. Give Lune Tree Blossoms anything else, but not forcing their usage to stop the damage multiplier vs mobs. It should be an option for bosses, not a requirement.

Honestly, this is my only gripe with the skill tree thus far. Everything else, completely chill about. She was my old main before Warly was release, and may very well become a secondary main after the skill tree releases. After all, why survive alone when you could have a spectral sibling to make things less lonely?

[Debruh]

Well Max health won, it seems