So, Walter is pretty fun and really powerful!

[Mysterious box]

On 12/24/2024 at 4:41 PM, OMEGASCRUFF said:

As I said in the post you literally quoted yourself, weapon efficiency would also be a really nice option on him as a way for players to weigh the costs of ammo against the improved costs of melee.

Where exactly would this matter? Late game weapons have 200 uses and their repair costs are extremely efficient while the only early game weapon I could see this mattering for is the dark sword and even then the grotto already makes living logs consistently available and his slingshot makes the process quick. Even then who is going to Walter see the massively improved slingshot and go "Oh boy more weapon durability on melee weapons is the real reason I want to play this character!"

On 12/24/2024 at 4:41 PM, OMEGASCRUFF said:

If the only DPS increase he gets is through Horror Rounds, then, welp, it's not the end of the world in that department (though we'll see what they do to improve Lunar alignment in the next hotfix before saying any of his damage numbers are decided...), but they honestly don't really last long enough and require the Void Cowl + Grip for max duration, and the Jelly Grip is specifically designed for swap effects, so there's some apparent issues here already with how this is executed. I wish his slingshot utility was more than just Horror Rounds' short-lived DoT and boring slowdown, but it's definitely still helpful for melee. But if damage is the way the devs want to fix this, then even a melee DPS bonus as small as around 20% with specific conditions required would be enough to be satisfying while addressing his incomplete design regarding his risk/reward, and improve his damage with the rest of the cast. Nobody's asking for a 2x mightiness multiplier + planar damage here. It wouldn't take much to fix this formulaic problem on Walter even when we're looking at it from just a damage perspective alone, especially with slingshot utility improved.

It weird to me how people seem to act like aoe freeze and slow have zero impact on his melee combat or utility sure they're not dealing raw dps but this feels like going aw shucks Maxwell's shadow prison should just deal damage while it holds enemies. Also while not usually in combat specifically his poop pellets provide a great deal of utility as well. Even his honey rounds have a minor exclusive utility option in that they trap birds for a short time. It's clear the route they went with him was a ranged debuff crowd control character combat wise which is already a unique role among the cast.

On 12/24/2024 at 4:41 PM, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Uh, yes..? That's what I said. It's one option. Every other character (besides Wilson and Wes for obvious reasons behind their purposes) does additional damage because of the scale of boss HP pools in this game and the planar system, and all skill trees offer damage to address how uneven the spread of DPS is between characters with only base kits, especially prior to the partially-equalizing effect of planar damage, which is not yet an omnipresent game mechanic. Even Wortox, the most support-oriented character in a game, got a notable DPS increase. This has been part of every single skill tree, but Walter's DPS updates have been entirely biased in favor of the slingshot's ranged DPS capabilities on its own, and not as a utility weapon swap + melee. This is the problem people have with the approach to his skill tree, and there's no good excuse for it to not do both and satisfy more players.

Why shouldn't his damage output buffs be aimed at the slingshot specifically this feels like saying when Wanda gets her skill tree she should move away from relying on the alarming clock like the slingshot is a big combat draw to the character one of the big gripes a lot of players had was how useless it was in combat when it's the first thing you see. If you want to use the slingshot to support melee the options are already there even if some of the post rift ones could use a buff on the lunar side. Aoe freeze and slow to give you more breathing room while fighting, poop pellets to deaggro and lure targets away, pure horror rounds a damage over time round that also can wipe hordes out quickly while you blitz specific ones down, pure brilliance rounds which adds additional damage on to planar attacks.(needs buffed however). The slingshot already works as a combat support tool. So I don't see the need for melee based perks when that's the most unique combat aspect of the character. As for his damage output with the slingshot exlcuding the post rift rounds which need buffed in the early game it's already more or less accounted for as he's getting more hits per dodge than the average character while doing melee dps his output is going to be higher than most on average assuming the other characters aren't just face tanking. I find a lot of the  problems people have with his tree is that they want him to become something different but closer to what the rest of the cast is and honestly I just see that as a silly direction to go because my biggest issue with the rest of the cast is how samey they've all become making Walter feel more like a breath of fresh air with his current skill tree.

On 12/24/2024 at 4:41 PM, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Wanda failed at this, if you haven't noticed, but she still has an inherent risk/reward to her that Walter does not. He has risk and only risk.

I'm sorry what? I guess area control in combat isn't a reward for playing the character? I mean on top of all the other benefits he already has baked into his base kit.

On 12/24/2024 at 4:41 PM, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Walter just has some increased costs when tanking, with no reward, because it's melee and nothing about Walter currently benefits it in both the live and beta branches other than ignoring insanity auras. He needs something else to go with that, and this skill tree hasn't given that to him at all.

Why should he have specific benefits for melee? This is like saying why doesn't Wendy have specific benefits for fighting without Abigial I still use melee as Walter myself I don't see a reason why the game needs to reward you for doing so when nothing about his character points to him being a melee specialist and his starting gear and downsides point to him being a ranged specialist.

On 12/24/2024 at 4:41 PM, OMEGASCRUFF said:

He would literally be "speficially more appealing" if he had the versatility to both fight at range and also up close with a unique application for slingshot effects. The solution answers your question already.

More appealing to who specifically? I feel like if someone wanted a character with melee and ranged applications they'd go for Willow no weapon durability isn't a appealing upside otherwise everyone would be super hyped about Wigfrid's weapon durability song. You can give him melee perks but most people just aren't going to care as much as you seem to think they would. At best they'd be better off giving him a few more special rounds that have uses in both like his freeze and slowdown rounds.

On 12/24/2024 at 4:41 PM, OMEGASCRUFF said:

What point are you even trying to make here? He's a hemophobe. It's literally in his character description. You could Google what that means, if you don't understand it. The first two things you mentioned are addressed by this directly. Woby is a foil to Walter's character. He's literally a camper. And the last point isn't even valid until release. These things have cohesion with his downside, obviously, which is what you're trying to say, because that's how game design works. But you're taking the wrong conclusion from it. This doesn't have to do anything with being cautious. He's literally not cautious and never has been; cautiousness has never been his brand. He's only scared of being hurt. You've oversimplifying things down to his weakness and being willingly rigid instead of open-minded about Walter's potential as a character, because he has so much promise that you're choosing to not consider. His gameplay is not just his downside, not even close.

Also, he doesn't carry a slingshot with various crowd control capabilities. He WILL carry a slingshot with various crowd control capabilities. Hell, its DPS is horrid on the live branch. You know this is a beta test for an update that comes out in the future, right? What's on the beta currently is not exactly what's going to be released, especially when they've specifically stated they're looking into adding more skills and adjust some numbers. This is the chance for positive change. Right now is the best opportunity they have to support multiple playstyles on Walter instead of only supporting just one that doesn't appeal to everyone. They did a pretty good job of supporting the ranged option, but there's no reason to have such a narrow scope. This is their best chance to fix the poor design on Walter that's made him to be the least popular character in the game, and his skill tree fails to address this flaw properly. While I like him a lot, this is incredibly obvious.

Nobody said anything about being reckless. Please don't put words in my mouth, or anyone else's — you're not doing yourself any favors when you do this. Those words are not synonyms. Nobody is rewarded for recklessness in this game. I'm personally asking for a skill that directly incentivizes him to play up close and utilize the slingshot for DoT and status (and I'm not even a fan of all the slowdown to begin with and wish that wasn't the only direction they decided to take with status, but at least it promotes kiting.) Damage is the most accessible route, and it's something that's been updated for every single character who's received a skill tree so far for multiple obvious reasons. If they do any melee damage bonus at all, I'd prefer it were tied to mixed use of the slingshot with melee weapons, and/or was only applied when at full health for both flavor reasons and as a reward for good kiting and keeping him unharmed. Hell, make it based on uninterrupted melee hit streak to really double down on things. Took me a whole 30 seconds to come up with this for Walter, as it's a concept successfully used in many other games already, isn't redundant with other characters, simultaneously addresses his flavor and current weaknesses in his playstyle, updates his damage a bit with the rest of the cast, and rewards smart gameplay. But there's an endless number of ways the devs could choose to remedy his issues. I don't know why you seem to be envisioning the concept of mixing the slingshot with melee combat as inherently supporting recklessness, when that isn't even what's happening in the OP's videos and nobody suggested this. Multiple goals can be achieved here through a very basic degree of nuance, and I'm not the only person with specific ideas of how to improve him. You're jumping to a conclusion for no reason besides argumentation. We just want better reasons to do what OP is doing or something similar. Nobody's asking for him to be sloppy in combat. Maybe you're thinking of Wendy players.

This just doesn't make sense to me on so many levels lets start from caution apparently not being on brand for him the only things going for this is inability to assess the level of danger creatures pose and his fearlessness in the face of those creatures until they harm him. What goes against this however is not only his reaction to being hurt, his general adherence to safety in matters involving survival outside of creatures like campfire safety for example and every aspect of his gameplay.

For gameplay specifically when getting it's more he takes sanity damage a concept most players tend to struggle with which encourages the player to take extra care not to get hit when playing him. Taking extra damage from bees once again hammers home the idea that getting hit is more dangerous on him then other characters when faced with the bee queen boss fight. Even pre beta he starts with a slingshot it having horrible dps was specifically because the game wasn't built to handle ranged combat and the devs weren't sure of another way to balance it looking at how much of his slingshot's rounds were geared towards upgrading it's damage with increasingly more expensive rounds clearly shows this also the viability of his pre beta crowd control rounds has nothing to do with what their intention was slowdown rounds slowed down targets, freeze rounds froze targets, and poop pellets deaggroed targets those are crowd control capabilities and denying that is just ignorant as the slingshots goal was to encourage a more cautious playstyle at the cost of dps how good it was at achieving that has no role in justifying design intentions. The most noticeable aspect of Woby to a first time Walter user when entering combat with her is that she'll buck you when you get hurt what does this communicate to the player? How about the fact in terms of combat you can only use ranged weapons while on her back?  How about the long wake up animation when you do get bucked while under attack? This isn't accidental communication it's very direct to the player it's telling you to be more cautious. Even looking at the tent roll the camper playstyle is definitely one way to read it but considering Walter needs to keep his stats topped off in order to prevent passive sanity drain it feels more like the intention was a over prepare for potential risks which is very in line with his boyscout nature. Walter's not glued to his slingshot but it is his most unique aspect and I imagine a lot of people will find Walter more enjoyable now that his most unique aspect actually rewards you for using it rather than punish you.

That being said if that's the way you want to read it I'm not going to say your way is invalid it's up to each person to find their own meaning but it's hard for me to see all these signs and assume it was intended for his design from the onset.

 

On 12/24/2024 at 4:41 PM, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Then why are you defending him having exclusively a single long-distance playstyle that literally accomplishes him being a "no hit god" more than any other character? You're shooting down your own argument in the same exact sentence. He used melee before the beta all the time, but now there's even less reason to do so.

Focusing on buffing his slingshot, Woby, and scouting abilities doesn't not invalidate him using melee it's simply keeping him focused it's like asking why doesn't Wurt have melee damage buffs? Everyone isn't going to suddenly pretend Walter can't pick up a hambat because they improved his slingshot the only reason this is even coming up is because his slingshot is a valid option now we don't need to suddenly buff his melee combat because his slingshot suddenly became usable if we get more ammo types that just happen to also be useful for melee fine but ammo types that are specifically geared towards melee shouldn't be a priority. Also it's simply a fantasy if you believe everyone is going to no hit everything with Walter simply because the slingshot became better the best players might but they aren't who we balance the game around.

On 12/24/2024 at 4:41 PM, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Ugh, can we step back here for a second here? Seriously, what is going on with Walter discussion? How is versatility and appealing to more players a bad thing..? I don't really understand what people are trying to defend here other than the status quo and weak design philosophy. What kind future do people even envision for this rad character? Do we want the beta to release and few people pick him up long-term yet again? Because that's all that being narrow-minded is going to accomplish. He's literally the least popular character on the roster, and this is the best (and probably only) chance to fix that. He can't keep the same exact formula and he needs real change, as scawy as it may sound. Let him have a more varied playstyle. Nobody's asking for anything to be taken away from Walter. Hell, I even like the option for the fully ranged combat, especially with teammates. People just want more supported options, not less. Listen to the people who want to like Walter, but can't. Their input is incredibly valuable (when they can properly articulate the reasons why, anyways.) Feedback is, like, the main reason why a public beta is even done in the first place (besides the unpaid labor, of course, oop.)

There's nothing wrong with versatility but it should be within reason as I mentioned above we aren't asking for melee skills for Wurt, gardening skills for Wolfgang, or fishing skills for Wigfrid being versatile is fine but it should be in a way that makes sense not because some people dislike the playstyle that's offered. I'm also open to feedback but there's a point where people just have to accept they don't like the character and probably never will no matter how much Klei tries to pivot the character's identity to please them this isn't a bad thing on either person's part not every character can appeal to every person so it makes the most sense to flesh out whats there and give some extra additions like scouting skills and Woby skills rather than spending his tree's skills on giving him the same combat appeal almost any other pick in the cast already provides.

 

 

20 hours ago, IAmAFurrz said:

im saying that id rather learn about any other character than walter. bc he is boring

Going by your comments this is less about him actually being boring at least from a objective stance and more so it seems like you just don't like the character and to be clear I'm not saying you were trying to be objective I'm just pointing this out. However to expand on that like would you say Walter was more boring than Wolfgang? Personally I don't see it but to each their own for example I find Wolfgang, Wx, and Wilson boring even Wigfrid felt pretty bland to me before they added her singing system but even that didn't help much as she's still one of my least played characters only ahead of the previous 3.

 

On 12/24/2024 at 7:53 PM, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Does anyone have another suggestion as to why he's the least played character in the game? I'm all ears. Because as far as I can tell, his formula just doesn't work, and this has been discussed before by multiple people on these forums and on other mediums. I'm trying to see it fixed, but it seems people are incredibly adamant about being permissive of it, instead. I don't know how anyone can set the bar so low.

So picture this if you will you pick up don't starve together and play various characters noticing most have very minimal downsides like Wendy or Woodie, some have downsides that require more caution with less experienced players but make up for it with strong perks like Warly or Wormwood. Then you reach pre skill tree Walter you spawn into a world with Woby, a slingshot, 10 pebbles, and your hat which reduces damage. You might try to use the slingshot your might not but the moment you get hit you're shocked by just how much sanity damage you've taken, you notice your not gaining any sanity from clothing, take additional damage from bees, and realize Woby bucks you when you take damage(there didn't even used to be the hp buffer before she bucks you it was just 1 tap and done). Thinking back to Warly and Wormwood you think well since he has this many downsides he must have some powerful ability to compensate it right? So you see his portable tent, Woby, and campfire stories and think okay these are definitely good but not enough to carry a character even more so with so many downsides. So then your attention is drawn to the slingshot you notice just how many ammo types it has 7 in total one even requiring you to dive into the ruins the biggest early/mid game challenge for a large portion of the playerbase using one of the early game's most precious resources. The thought process is likely huh a ranged character that's a pretty unique playstyle that really sets him apart from the rest of the cast then you actually try it. The damage output is extremely low, freezing capability is worse than a ice staff as you could get off 2 or more shots in the time you fire one and the windup delay makes freezing things at key moments near impossible, even the poop pellets aggro horde members when you try to deaggro a individual one making them worthless in a horde situation.(this was later changed in a patch)  To put this into perspective Walter was like if you took Wolfgang removed his damage buffs kept everything else and gave him a bunch of downsides the other stuff he does is useful but it sure as heck doesn't carry the character as someone you would normally pick. Regardless of how some might feel about the slingshot it was the core gameplay element that was uniquely Walter and the most unique thing about him and it was bad it's no wonder why his play rate was so low when his most unique aspect was terrible from every conceivable angle. The focus on improving his slingshot aimed to and in my opinion already accomplished making him a much more interesting character to play even if he could use more skills in other areas like Woby.

Also it's worth noting that Walter isn't the least played character he's just one of the less played characters which is a accomplishment in and of itself when you consider how bad such a core aspect of his character has been since release.

If nothing else I feel like the bolded part is the most relevant to your questions on Walter.

 

[Steorra]

On 12/24/2024 at 6:53 PM, IAmAFurrz said:

sorry, hes not fun. 

Is this a personal idea or a fact?

 

So I was seen many criticism about skilltrees of other characters like "characters downside is a fun of DST and it should not be fix", but now "melee downside of Walter should be fix because it is not a fun (for me)?

Wow. 

[Bumber64]

18 hours ago, Steorra said:

Is this a personal idea or a fact?

 

So I was seen many criticism about skilltrees of other characters like "characters downside is a fun of DST and it should not be fix", but now "melee downside of Walter should be fix because it is not a fun (for me)?

Wow. 

Delete Walter's skill tree and start over. 

Klei has been too perfunctory with Walter players. Woby needs to be able to attack enemies and not throw Walter off when hit. Walter loses no sanity when hurt while Woby is nearby.

These skills are all optional, so if you don't like it then don't use it.