I think we should just get rid of gestalt abby

[DVGMedia]

IM going to start this off where gestalt abby is just bad in design. She doesnt really follow the trade off skills that were given to other characters and she completly goes against wendys playstyle
And thats not a problem because there are other characters that have off shoots and trade offs That creates a unique playstyle that go against their original powers.
Wigfrid and the beefalo skill trade off wigfrids bonus tank and damage for the ability to use songs whenever. So that wigfrid becomes more of a consistent bard character. Thing is this doesn't make wigfrid worse at what she does It adds to it because the player can always just get off the beefalo and be back to standard wigfrid

Wolfgang also has one in his coaching skill. Where you need to stay default in order to use his coaching whistle to buff all allied mobs nearby. If you need to go mighty though you can and revoke the skill with ease.

These are unique  skills that change up how a player approach the characters in new ways and are just a one off side skill for fun.
But even though these are trade offs they still add to the aresenal a player has while playing as that character

However for some reason klei really wants gestalt abby to be the defining portion of the lunar skill tree.
So much so you need to put alot of comitment to it and are locked to it if you choose to do that.

Only for making Abigail slightly better at bosses while getting rid of all of her utility.

Where is the fun new gameplay to this trade off? And why is it so tedius to revert back to normal?

If anything gestalt should just be  a temporary form and not a consistent one.

[AliceShiki]

I'd say Gestalt is fine, but I agree that it shouldn't be a hassle to switch between modes. Being able to change them at will would lead to better gameplay...

Though well, I get that it's supposed to be a tradeoff that makes her better against bosses and worse against mooks, but I dunno if this tradeoff is worth it rn.

[lio516]

Switching is really cumbersome, I think it should be some kind of item or potion consumable that can be used to change Abbi's form, and then the player can decide when to cancel

[Echsrick]

it maybe sould have been just abigal just as before but has its respective planar attack, no fancy of anything just that

[DVGMedia]

12 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

it maybe sould have been just abigal just as before but has its respective planar attack, no fancy of anything just that

Thats what im thinking. The gestalt dash is basically just the attack at command but single target and automatic.
There is nothing interesting about it.
It would honestly be more funny if abby got a nuke command.
Where she  flew up in the air and dropped down and did a big burst of aoe damage kind of like how her gestalt form does

[Debruh]

Ngl, I thought that maybe we were gonna get some cool sleep mechanics. As in you exchange aoe and dps for Abby acting as a automatic yet weaker sleep dart but nah

As in, you trade aoe and dps for Abby sometimes providing short windows of time for you to relax mid fight. Heal and stuff

[Steorra]

I personally would like to see some brand new design of the lunar affinity skill, but I could say "it's ok" for the previous Abi.

[Nikki Darks]

Maybe when you used the Lunar Elixir on her she'd transform for a set duration? And when it ran out she'd go back to base Abby? 

Feel like that'd be much better than this weird, once in a full/new moon gimmick. 

[Mr Giggio]

On 12/18/2024 at 3:01 PM, DVGMedia said:

better at bosses while getting rid of all of her utility

if u mean the AoE just enables "Attack here" skill and use it the same way a Weremoose charge

[Mike23Ua]

I can’t play in betas but I don’t like the idea of changing Abigail’s appearance, it seems disrespectful (both for Gashalt & Shadow) 

I can easily accept relocating the graves in a fictional realm where dying has little consequences and you’ll relive again as being MUCH less Disrespectful then actually changing the appearance of your very real, and very dead twin sister.

I get that Klei wanted to do something cool like Lunar/Shadow Bernie, or Wurts Lunar and Shadow Merms..

But to me (and this is probably just a personal thing) it feels disrespectful to distort the image of Abigail.

[DVGMedia]

5 hours ago, Mr Giggio said:

if u mean the AoE just enables "Attack here" skill and use it the same way a Weremoose charge

its really not comparable though.  Cause the aoe is not about the damage its about the crowd control.  The consistent 1 second hit does so much crowd control  and the dash really is not comparable.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

On 12/18/2024 at 10:01 AM, DVGMedia said:

And why is it so tedius to revert back to normal?

Simply kill Celestial Champion to force a new moon. It's not hard at all. :^)

No, honestly, I don't really know what they were cooking with Lunar Abigail. When the skill tree first came out, I thought the main focus would be improved single target DPS in exchange for the loss of AoE, which I thought was cool and good in concept to optionally help some players wean off of her for day-to-day combat carrying... But then we ended up with this super tanky burst damager that became invincible for awhile but now doesn't offer much of anything over Shadow Abigail and also you get to spam healing potions mindlessly and revive her with no real drawbacks to max power because character downsides are meaningless now I guess. We did it, gang. Nobody knows what "it" is, but it's definitely been done.

I thought the idea behind single target DPS as a trade off for a more extended, inflexible loss of AoE (due to the conditions to revert) was fine in concept, and improved durability should have been part of the base skills for both forms through mostly Teamwork for dodging and positioning, and, back then, the Floral Shroud (which needed tuning, obviously, but it never had the chance.) And of course the obligatory updates for the planar damage system, which is a given. But there's been some major over-corrections going on rather than any nuanced tuning, and I just don't really understand how things were allowed to get this out of hand. 

I'm just lucky and grateful she's not my main. I'd be really upset if she was. I get why people are so riled up about all this, because it all just feels so... improvised. It seems like many of the important decisions were made by reactive complaints, not with an in-touch, robust plan or vision from the start, and that's just not how anyone ends up with a great product in the end. It just got so overcomplicated so fast.

Sorry Wendy mains. Maybe you'll get the Wormwood treatment, in the future, if it's any consolation.

[Debruh]

3 hours ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Simply kill Celestial Champion to force a new moon. It's not hard at all. :^)

No, honestly, I don't really know what they were cooking with Lunar Abigail. When the skill tree first came out, I thought the main focus would be improved single target DPS in exchange for the loss of AoE, which I thought was cool and good in concept to optionally help some players wean off of her for day-to-day combat carrying... But then we ended up with this super tanky burst damager that became invincible for awhile but now doesn't offer much of anything over Shadow Abigail and also you get to spam healing potions mindlessly and revive her with no real drawbacks to max power because character downsides are meaningless now I guess. We did it, gang. Nobody knows what "it" is, but it's definitely been done.

I thought the idea behind single target DPS as a trade off for a more extended, inflexible loss of AoE (due to the conditions to revert) was fine in concept, and improved durability should have been part of the base skills for both forms through mostly Teamwork for dodging and positioning, and, back then, the Floral Shroud (which needed tuning, obviously, but it never had the chance.) And of course the obligatory updates for the planar damage system, which is a given. But there's been some major over-corrections going on rather than any nuanced tuning, and I just don't really understand how things were allowed to get this out of hand. 

I'm just lucky and grateful she's not my main. I'd be really upset if she was. I get why people are so riled up about all this, because it all just feels so... improvised. It seems like many of the important decisions were made by reactive complaints, not with an in-touch, robust plan or vision from the start, and that's just not how anyone ends up with a great product in the end. It just got so overcomplicated so fast.

Sorry Wendy mains. Maybe you'll get the Wormwood treatment, in the future, if it's any consolation.

Pretty sure the focus was supposed to be on survivability.

Then Sisturn ||| was changed to what it is now, so it completely overshadows gestalt in survivability.

And Ghastly experience exists too. (Not only that, but it's also 2nd of the tree, and it alone prevents some cool builds.)

[Golden Daemon]

On 12/18/2024 at 9:59 PM, lio516 said:

Switching is really cumbersome, I think it should be some kind of item or potion consumable that can be used to change Abbi's form, and then the player can decide when to cancel

Maybe they could just add a new consumable that is only craftable during full moon / new moon which transforms abby into her gestalt / normal form when used on her.
This way the devs can keep both the full moon ritual aesthetic aspect of the transformation while also allowing the players to have more agency over abigails transformation (the player can make several potions during full moon and new moon for later uses).

[Lee lol]

Someone mentioned the use of yellowstaff or moonstaff to transform the form of gestalt. It's interesting, and it's very convenient after you go to Ruins. I understand that some people want the transformation form to be more troublesome, so we have to make a choice, but I don't know if the current gestalt is worth it...

[Gashzer]

Gestalt abigail should trade convenient crowd controlling for convenient extra damage against bosses including aoe bosses without abigail dying easily.

Key word here is convenient!

Gestalt abigail should survive for an entire fight against bosses like bearger/deerclops without player input. And survive with little input for much longer AOE fights like toadstool. 

And should be powerful enough if a Wendy player is patient enough and wants to sit back an let gestalt abigail solo a boss then they can, but it should be possible with a lot less elixirs and micromanaging needed when compared with regular form.

I really like the idea of choosing which type of convenience you want, single target or hordes!

Cherry on top, Gestalt abigail should also be able to attack nightmare creatures.

[DVGMedia]

Just having a convenient way to quick switch abby is better for the health of the character and the tree. You are already going to have to trade off not having the shadow side
So making it so the lunar side not as inconvenient to use makes it much more appealing.

 

[Uedo]

On 12/20/2024 at 8:48 PM, Mike23Ua said:

I can’t play in betas but I don’t like the idea of changing Abigail’s appearance, it seems disrespectful (both for Gashalt & Shadow) 

I can easily accept relocating the graves in a fictional realm where dying has little consequences and you’ll relive again as being MUCH less Disrespectful then actually changing the appearance of your very real, and very dead twin sister.

I get that Klei wanted to do something cool like Lunar/Shadow Bernie, or Wurts Lunar and Shadow Merms..

But to me (and this is probably just a personal thing) it feels disrespectful to distort the image of Abigail.

Contrary to popular belief - Abigail is a fictional character. She has neither died nor lived. I don't think we can disrespect the imaginary life of an animated ghost.

[Gashzer]

10 hours ago, DVGMedia said:

Just having a convenient way to quick switch abby is better for the health of the character and the tree. You are already going to have to trade off not having the shadow side
So making it so the lunar side not as inconvenient to use makes it much more appealing.

 

Nah if it's convenient to switch gestalt form off an on then it diminishes the satisfaction and the importance of choice.

Klei just needs to buff gestalt abigail to be worth choosing. Gestalt abigail being able to attack nightmare creatures with boosted longevity and increased vex duration against bosses would make gestalt abigail competitive against regular/shadow abigail.

[WenericMember]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Nah if it's convenient to switch gestalt form off an on then it diminishes the satisfaction and the importance of choice.

Klei just needs to buff gestalt abigail to be worth choosing. Gestalt abigail being able to attack nightmare creatures with boosted longevity and increased vex duration against bosses would make gestalt abigail competitive against regular/shadow abigail.

I would say though that gesalt Abigail is incompatible with present Blessed Sisturn 3. No matter how many buffs it gets, it will be unviable.

There's no reason to choose a survival focused path when a non-alignment skill solves 99% of Abigail's survival issues without capping her dps early by locking out of shadow path..

If Immortal Abigail is toned back, i imagine Lunar Abby would stand on her own merits more.

[Gashzer]

1 hour ago, WenericMember said:

I would say though that gesalt Abigail is incompatible with present Blessed Sisturn 3. No matter how many buffs it gets, it will be unviable.

There's no reason to choose a survival focused path when a non-alignment skill solves 99% of Abigail's survival issues without capping her dps early by locking out of shadow path..

If Immortal Abigail is toned back, i imagine Lunar Abby would stand on her own merits more.

I think everyone forgets (including klei) what wendys real strength is. 

Its not this super dps character with a really high skill cap.

Wendy's strength is the power of convenience!

Regular abigail should be the horde convenience form and gestalt the boss convenience form. Shadow abigail does need toned down i agree but it should be this early game boost with a slight skill cap expression whereas gestalt abigail should have such a high survivability in boss fights that she doesn't need barely any micromanaging at all.

Maybe they will nerf blessed sisturn 3. It does step on the toes of big bernie a bit too much.

 

[Soul7k]

Funny enough I actually really enjoy gestalt Abigail, however it would be nice if you could change her easier. This is mostly if i need to clear a horde of spiders when they get out of control or bees, because anything bigger gestalt can basically delete in one or two hits. Even then with dash attack she can still manage just fine, but at the end of the day its really just preference.

[DVGMedia]

7 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Nah if it's convenient to switch gestalt form off an on then it diminishes the satisfaction and the importance of choice.

Klei just needs to buff gestalt abigail to be worth choosing. Gestalt abigail being able to attack nightmare creatures with boosted longevity and increased vex duration against bosses would make gestalt abigail competitive against regular/shadow abigail.

But its not? you already don't have access to the shadow side. Thats the choice in the matter?

[Gashzer]

Just now, DVGMedia said:

But its not? you already don't have access to the shadow side. Thats the choice in the matter?

... the shadow side is a simple stat addition to regular abigail. It requires you to murder things to activate but it doesn't change the way you play with abigail. 

Gestalt abigail fundamentally changes the way you play with abigail by allowing you at full moons to swap abigail into a convenient boss fighting mode which is fantastic! 

If you can just turn gestalt abigail on for bosses and off again it would be too powerful and diminish the cool factor.

If Gestalt abigail covered for all of Wendy's previous weaknesses; nightmare creatures, aoe bosses but also removes her previous strength of AOE damage and control. Is such a cool fun gameplay mix up.

See you are a old school wendy main through and through, this is who the shadow side is targeted towards. People who want same old wendy but buffed.

Gestalt abigail is appealing to me ( a non wendy main) because now i can play Wendy aggressively during boss fights without needing to babysit gestalt abigail. And hopefully allows abigail to attack shadow creatures. 

[CremeLover]

The problem I see with both alignment skills is that Klei went with what was, IMO, not the best design path for Abigail with the skill tree.

Abigail is a particular follower that gives more control and more ways to play around her than any other follower.
You can push her away during combat, desummon her from a distance, and even having her take aggro, then quickly desummon her with an ice staff before she takes damage. Even Webber with the whistles has nowhere near as much control as Wendy does. Plus, we got even more commands with the skill tree so that we can simulate a more puppeteer-like playstyle.

Then, as expected, she also got some survivability added to her kit, which in its current iteration it increases the margin of error when using Abigail.

So, once survivability is solved, what is left for the summon is utility, damage and convenience... Shadow has more Utility due to having AoE, Shadow has more damage overall, and convenience wise, Shadow requires you catch critters beforehand, and Gestalt locks you in without the possibility to swap for 10 ingame days.

Currently, the only real advantage Gestalt has over Shadow is that you don't have to focus much on her for bosses, and you don't have to catch critters beforehand to activate it, while shadow has more utility, more damage and less draw backs, just more busywork.

A few weeks ago I suggested to give Lunar Abigail something different to make her more support based, which would expand on Wendy's playstyle, woudln't directly compete with Shadow Abigail, and still offer something valuable that Shadow doesn't. The only solutions now are to either nerf Shadow as to not fully eclipse Gestalt, or buff Gestalt to be comparable with Shadow, but wait!, we just nerfed Gestalt because it was too overpowered and doing too much damage!

Woodie's forms each do something different, so none of them are really stepping on each other's toes, so you can balance them accordingly in a vacuum, Willow's Bernie skill are the same Shadow and Lunar wise, just with the opposite alignment, but Wendy's form both do the exact same, but in different ways, so is a no brained to pick the ones that does its job the best. With Shadow having the AoE advantage, and Gestalt having more survivability advantage, with the added problem that, Abigail has to have some base survivability as well, if it is too strong, it also means that Gestalt loses its one advantage.

The most elegant solution and the one that will satisfy the most people I believe is giving Gestalt Abigail something different that gives Wendy a reason to pick the lunar path, even if it is too late for a full overhaul. I hope someone at Klei ruminates about this over the holidays and can come up with an elegant and clear solution on how to either add something meaninful to Gestalt Abigail or differenciate them both in a way that is more than just numbers.