Let's take a step back and think this through (suggestion for a final version of Wendy's skill tree)

[RussoDaFederal]

I know everyone is tired of Wendy suggestions, a lot of people are unsatisfied, but after spending a lot of time for the last couple of days reading through the forum, I can say with quite enough confidence that the main reasons why players are unsatisfied are:

1. Gestalt Abigail feels pretty useless now, there's little reason to pick her over shadow Abigail, and
2. There's an ongoing fight about whether Abigail should be more tanky, and whether "player tag" (50% damage reduction against bosses) should be kept.

Honestly, aside from those two points, I (personally) think the skill tree is good enough for release. But we're not here to make compliments, are we? Let's make some constructive criticism instead.

I'll start by addressing gestalt Abi. On the previous version, she could solo a few bosses and had pretty good survivability overall because of her invincibility frames. Because of that, Klei decided she needed a nerf, and a lot of people agreed. But now the consensus is that she was nerfed too heavily. The problem was never her damage, since she's always had lower damage than shadow Abi. The problem was that she was able to kill bosses by herself. This could be solved by tweaking her aggro, as many people suggested. Her AI was neatly implemented, and it feels like Klei discarded a pretty good job. I've personally suggested to keep gestalt Abi as she was before, but remove her riled up state. By doing so, you keep her survivability and remove her ability to solo anything. This also fits the "aloof" gestalt Abi personality Jason mentioned (at least I think it was him). She's still very much viable, you have the dash command if you pick team spirit skills (the cursor could be tweaked to target a single enemy instead of an area since gestalt Abi hits a single target) and she'll also attack anything that's attacking or being attacked by Wendy. That's just regular Abigail behavior, riled up or not.

Secondly, let's address the player tag feature. People very much disliked the previous iteration of blessed sisturn because you had to wait a few minutes at base for Abi to gain extra health that would be gone in a few seconds. But making Abi receive half damage from bosses means she'll heal twice as fast compared to what she was before. Currently she can solo deerclops as long as you have enough spectral cure alls, because she can heal faster than deerclops can damage her. Isn't that the main reason why gestalt Abi was nerfed in the first place, being able to solo bosses? Sure, gestalt Abi didn't even need elixirs, but player tag remains a problem. At the same time, some players want Abi to have an option to be more tanky, and that's valid. @DVGMedia proposed that blessed sisturn 3 increases Abi's health to 900 permanently until she dies, like an extra level. More health and less damage taken may seem like the same thing at first, but extra health doesn't affect the effectiveness of healing. And 900 is plenty of health for beginner Wendy players to realize "oops, Abi's health is below 300, it's time to despawn her, heal and then come back to the fight". In fact, this option is not only more balanced but also more beginner friendly and less convoluted, as @Steorra pointed out that non boss enemies like rooks still hit hard and are a problem for beginner Wendy players.

Edit: changed suggestion from 1200 to 900. Why 900? Because the highest possible damage a boss can inflict to Abigail is 200, so it makes sense that she has at least that extra amount of health so she can survive long enough to despawn and heal her. Spectral cure all heals 600 hp total, 630 if you count her natural healing, so she should have at least 200 + 630 max health. Round that up and you have 900. I suggested 1200 at first as a direct replacement for the half damage received because of player tag, but anything beyond 900 is unnecessary because of what I pointed out.

In conclusion, I want to urge Klei to pick the easier and simpler solution to these problems. Somebody once said "the best solution to a problem is usually the easiest one". This is kinda like clockwork, the more gears you add to the piece, the higher it is the chance for something to malfunction. Keep everything concise, it'll be easier for the devs to implement and for the players to understand.

[Steorra]

10 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

(the cursor could be tweaked to target a single enemy instead of an area since gestalt Abi hits a single target)

personally I guess this would cause more unexcept issues but I mainly agree with your gestalt Abi part.

11 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Currently she can solo deerclops as long as you have enough spectral cure alls, because she can heal faster than deerclops can damage her. Isn't that the main reason why gestalt Abi was nerfed in the first place, being able to solo bosses?

Hmm.. BERNIE! could do same thing doesn't it? I personally can't find a balance issue from the deerclop... it is too weak. and for newcomers I guess they would prefer to have a character to help them to kill their first boss.

But yes I could agree with that to change player tag into 1200HP of Abi. It would solve the cure-all issue, but at the same time it brings benefits of fighting rooks. I guess this could satisfy more people here.

the only debatable thing is how to apply this 1200maxHP of Abi.

17 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Keep everything concise,

tbh I personally think this could be a good idea to 1200HP of Abi... the basic survival enhancement should be easily achieve for newcomers, also it should be convenient. the survival of Abi is relative with a basic feature of Wendy, and it is the most important one. the old sisturn way would be a bit complex and inconvenient for it's purpose. 

[Xplan]

23 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Her AI was neatly implemented, and it feels like Klei discarded a pretty good job. I've personally suggested to keep gestalt Abi as she was before, but remove her riled up state. By doing so, you keep her survivability and remove her ability to solo anything.

i totally agree. this can be well balanced

as far as i know, klei may take fitzee's suggestions of team spirit into consideration.

if so, a more convenient team spirit will make wendy more interesting instead of tiring.

this is full of hope

[Sikers]

34 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

I know everyone is tired of Wendy suggestions, a lot of people are unsatisfied, but after spending a lot of time for the last couple of days reading through the forum, I can say with quite enough confidence that the main reasons why players are unsatisfied are:

1. Gestalt Abigail feels pretty useless now, there's little reason to pick her over shadow Abigail, and
2. There's an ongoing fight about whether Abigail should be more tanky, and whether "player tag" (50% damage reduction against bosses) should be kept.

I don't know like others, but I'm also unsatisfied with Mourning Glory II and hope it will get buffed or completely rework 

[thesooz9000]

49 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

@DVGMedia proposed that blessed sisturn 3 increases Abi's health to 1200 permanently until she dies,

I'd prefer if it increased her max HP to 900 instead of 1200, feels like such a large hp pool.

Also, I feel like the increased HP pool shouldn't work with shadow abigail.

[RussoDaFederal]

8 minutes ago, thesooz9000 said:

I'd prefer if it increased her max HP to 900 instead of 1200, feels like such a large hp pool.

That's understandable and I agree, but I think 1200 is fine too. It's a compromise.

9 minutes ago, thesooz9000 said:

Also, I feel like the increased HP pool shouldn't work with shadow abigail.

The problem with that is that shadow Abi IS default Abi 90% of the time. It would make more sense to make shadow Abi take extra damage while she's in "shadow mode" instead, but that's another topic and honestly I don't think this is really necessary, because then it's an incentive for all shadow Abi players to go for the sisturn branch.

[Yifei_]

1 hour ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Secondly, let's address the player tag feature. People very much disliked the previous iteration of blessed sisturn because you had to wait a few minutes at base for Abi to gain extra health that would be gone in a few seconds. But making Abi receive half damage from bosses means she'll heal twice as fast compared to what she was before. Currently she can solo deerclops as long as you have enough spectral cure alls, because she can heal faster than deerclops can damage her.

The "player tag" also has an issue in that it may not work against all bosses. When facing bosses like CC I&II and AG, where the damage to players is exactly the same as the damage to creatures, the "player tag" offers no assistance. I feel this could also serve as a supplement to your point that sometimes the "player tag" can't even simply reduce the damage taken.

 

[yinjiu019]

1 hour ago, RussoDaFederal said:

I've personally suggested to keep gestalt Abi as she was before, but remove her riled up state. By doing so, you keep her survivability and remove her ability to solo anything.

Probably very useful advice...!
Solved the problem in a clever way (maybe?
I never tried to provoke lunar abi, always fighting with abigail made me feel great

ヾ(≧▽≦*)o

[hyoton123]

38 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

That's understandable and I agree, but I think 1200 is fine too. It's a compromise.

Funnily enough i think I’m on the opposite side for the make it 1200 group: she’s going to be even more invincible now to normal stuff and  has (probably) all the same problems as before on bosses but slightly slower, which is pretty much  the power fantasy. Then again, i’d say that at 900 too I guess…

[RussoDaFederal]

2 minutes ago, WereBruhver said:

You and DVGMedia are not the voice of the community

I never claimed to be. This is just a suggestion and I'm just one guy.

3 minutes ago, WereBruhver said:

do you think it is a good idea to try to compromise with people that make fun, harass, admit to be acting in bad faith and manipulate things on the forum?

No, I don't. I'm trying to reach a compromise based on arguments, not on "but I want iiiit". It's true that some people just want Wendy to be the strongest character of all and they provide no arguments. I'm not trying to reach a compromise with them, I'm trying to reach a compromise with the few people that did provide arguments. I really don't know what's happening under the radar, so far I've been nice enough with everyone and I haven't received hatemail or anything. It's not like we're negotiating with terrorists, this isn't a spy movie.

[WereBruhver]

42 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

No, I don't. I'm trying to reach a compromise based on arguments, not on "but I want iiiit". 

O mundo não é feito de boas intenções,  isso que você diz não estar tentando fazer é exatamente o que está fazendo sem saber, não fique surpreso caso alguém canse e venha a tona o comp0rtamento horrível que essa galera - incluindo usuários que tão aqui nesse teu post - tá tendo f0ra do forum e trazendo aqui pro forum tbm. Having said that, I agree to disagree on the 1200hp Abigail idea.

[Koomin]

Just bringing up that I definitely think there are other issues besides those two points, and think they affect what the decision here is.  Shadow Abigail is way too strong with no tradeoff, which is why there is a consensus that she is the better choice.  I don't think doubling Abigail's hp to 1200 makes sense with the current Shadow Abigail, so can't really agree with this proposal.

For what it's worth, I also think the complaints about Gestalt Abigail are a bit overblown.  I've found that if you actually work to take aggro onto yourself or make use of the commands, she does a great job and survives much much longer than normal Abigail, which is her purpose.  She only attacks every ~3s, so doesn't get hit very much at all, and with good play you can prevent her from getting hit even then.

[RussoDaFederal]

17 minutes ago, WereBruhver said:

O mundo não é feito de boas intenções,  isso que você diz não estar tentando fazer é exatamente o que está fazendo sem saber, não fique surpreso caso alguém canse e venha a tona o comp0rtamento horrível que essa galera - incluindo usuários que tão aqui nesse teu post - tá tendo f0ra do forum e trazendo aqui pro forum tbm. Having said that, I agree to disagree on the 1200hp Abigail idea.

Irmão, eu não tenho como saber o q acontece fora do forum. E o ponto não é se a galera é bem intencionada ou não, é se o argumento deles faz sentido. Eu mesmo já perdi a paciência com uma galera e mantenho o meu ponto.

6 minutes ago, Koomin said:

Shadow Abigail is way too strong with no tradeoff

Would you consider lowering her damage then? Or make her receive extra damage while her murder buff is active? Reduce the vex elixir effectiveness? I'm open to new ideas, and I bet Klei is too, even more than me.

9 minutes ago, Koomin said:

I don't think doubling Abigail's hp to 1200 makes sense with the current Shadow Abigail

That's why it's so tricky to balance this, shadow Abi and default Abi are the same most of the time. Would 900 health work then? I think 900 is good and 1200 makes little difference compared to 900, because with 900 health Abi will hardly die anyway. But if 1200 is what it takes to reach an agreement, I don't mind.

16 minutes ago, Koomin said:

For what it's worth, I also think the complaints about Gestalt Abigail are a bit overblown.  I've found that if you actually work to take aggro onto yourself or make use of the commands, she does a great job and survives much much longer than normal Abigail, which is her purpose.

Does this work with AoE bosses too? My main complaint is that Klei added a 1s wait after she attacks where she just stays still. Even if you take the boss aggro, she'll be hit, no? Honest question.

[WereBruhver]

Just now, RussoDaFederal said:

Irmão, eu não tenho como saber o q acontece fora do forum.

Ou dentro aparentemente, não é a primeira vez que eles fazem essa birra toda, da outra vez foi por conta de uma mudança numa skin da Wigfrid a cerca de um ano e meio atrás.
 

3 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

E o ponto não é se a galera é bem intencionada ou não, é se o argumento deles faz sentido. 

Então me esclarece ai "irmão", o argumento deles faz sentido? Como que uma aberração como uma Abigail com 1200 de hp faz sentido?

[RussoDaFederal]

Just now, Fitzee said:

Damage? No, that's the purpose of her.

Survivability? Sure.

Elixir? I guess, though I had the impression it didn't increase vex damage by much. How much does it provide?

Apparently it increases Wendy's damage multiplier (when hitting vexed mobs) from 1.4 to 1.6 and the vex damage multiplier from 1.1 to 1.3. Maybe keeping the 1.4 multiplier would be enough.

[Dingle]

3 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

Elixir? I guess, though I had the impression it didn't increase vex damage by much. How much does it provide?

Here's updated math:

 

[Koomin]

1 minute ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Would you consider lowering her damage then? Or make her receive extra damage while her murder buff is active? Reduce the vex elixir effectiveness? I'm open to new ideas, and I bet Klei is too, even more than me.

That's why it's so tricky to balance this, shadow Abi and default Abi are the same most of the time. Would 900 health work then? I think 900 is good and 1200 makes little difference compared to 900, because with 900 health Abi will hardly die anyway. But if 1200 is what it takes to reach an agreement, I don't mind.

Does this work with AoE bosses too? My main complaint is that Klei added a 1s wait after she attacks where she just stays still. Even if you take the boss aggro, she'll be hit, no? Honest question.

Shadow Abigail: her murder buff is the fun and unique part of the ability, so I would rather it be unchanged.  I would suggest removing power from other areas. 

The normal damage of Abigail should be reduced. It would actually be pretty cool if this was leaned into, and she did less damage than normal Abigail without the murder buff, but much more with it. This would make Shadow Abigail be less "normal Abigail but way better", and have more of a tradeoff like Gestalt does. 

The increased vex damage is really problematic especially how it combines with the weird Wendy beefalo interaction.  It should either convert a lot of your damage to planar but not add any, since most people think Wendy needs help specifically post rift but not pre rift, or do something more fun and unique than just adding damage.  For example, having shadow vexed enemies have their attack speed or damage or movespeed sapped.

For the area of effect bosses question, if the area of effect is very large it does work a bit worse, but otherwise is OK, and Abigail getting hit every once in a while when her attack lines up with a boss attack on me is fine.  I do agree with the suggestions I have seen to increase the radius she uses to circle the bosses as a small improvement here though.

[RussoDaFederal]

10 minutes ago, WereBruhver said:

a cerca de um ano e meio atrás.

Vc ta de brincadeira né

10 minutes ago, WereBruhver said:

Então me esclarece ai "irmão", o argumento deles faz sentido? Como que uma aberração como uma Abigail com 1200 de hp faz sentido?

A Klei já tava tentando implementar um buff pro hp da Abigail, só q a ideia de vida extra temporária foi bem ruim e a galera detestou. Como eu disse, eu tb acho 1200 um exagero, mas 900 é válido pra krl. E se vc vai aumentar pra 900, 1200 não faz tanta diferença assim. O spectral cure all cura 600 de hp, basta vc ter um threshold razoável (e se tem boss q da 200 de dano o threshold tem q ser maior, ou seja, mais q 800 de hp) e vc vai saber qndo é pra recuar da luta. Pq se vc insistir a Abigail morre de qqr forma. Qqr valor acima de 900 só vai te dar uma margem de erro maior

[Koomin]

5 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

Damage? No, that's the purpose of her.

Survivability? Sure.

Elixir? I guess, though I had the impression it didn't increase vex damage by much. How much does it provide?

 

3 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Apparently it increases Wendy's damage multiplier (when hitting vexed mobs) from 1.4 to 1.6 and the vex damage multiplier from 1.1 to 1.3. Maybe keeping the 1.4 multiplier would be enough.

I think part of the disagreements on these discussions might come from some lack of awareness or publicized testing on how strong the Shadow vex is.  This makes beefalo Wendy do 1.3 x 1.6 = 2.08x damage (without even accounting for Abigail's actual damage and murder buff damage).  This is incredibly strong and not needed.  If we want to make other parts of the skill tree stronger, this needs to become weaker.

[RussoDaFederal]

4 minutes ago, Koomin said:

The normal damage of Abigail should be reduced.

I disagree with this, but agree with everything else you said in that comment

[RussoDaFederal]

1 minute ago, Fitzee said:

So alternate Cursed Vexation effects could be:

A) Half of physical damage dealt to vexed mob convert to planar

B) Halved movement speed and doubled attack period 

C) Vexed mobs deal less damage (I came up with this one)

I like A because it keeps up with post rift stuff. B is ok. I don't like C because then both versions of Abi would be focused on defense

[Picklesaurus]

3 hours ago, RussoDaFederal said:

In conclusion, I want to urge Klei to pick the easier and simpler solution to these problems. Somebody once said "the best solution to a problem is usually the easiest one". This is kinda like clockwork, the more gears you add to the piece, the higher it is the chance for something to malfunction. Keep everything concise, it'll be easier for the devs to implement and for the players to understand.

I dislike that simple solution of increasing Abigail's by 100% in one insight point. 900hp I would maybe like if it is something that she has to sacrifice skill points for, like how burning bernie restricts the skill tree if you want to take it.

[RussoDaFederal]

1 minute ago, Picklesaurus said:

I dislike that simple solution of increasing Abigail's by 100% in one insight point. 900hp I would maybe like if it is something that she has to sacrifice skill points for, like how burning bernie restricts the skill tree if you want to take it.

It kinda costs 3 insight points tho. It's blessed sisturn 3, and the other 2 are not even worth it imo

[Steorra]

44 minutes ago, Koomin said:

The increased vex damage is really problematic especially how it combines with the weird Wendy beefalo interaction.

I was just changed a bit for my previous idea after I did the armored bearger myself by beefalo shadow abi combo.

【测试服温蒂 无角色标签（PlayerTag） 战牛阿比月熊-哔哩哔哩】 https://b23.tv/OYIezv8

Took about 1min30sec to finish the battle by feefalo shadow abi

【维斯无加速无亮茄无伤月熊-哔哩哔哩】 https://b23.tv/vNAkLUV

Took about 1min30sec to finish the battle by Wes with no speed boosting, though the poster have better skill than me.

 

I found that cursed vex with beefalo have a similar problem to the previous Shadow abi who is lack of planar damage.

And beefalo have a critical downside of knockdown.

I guess to nerf general damage from cursed vex but give it some planar damage would be better, maybe? Still lack of some mature ideas...

[Koomin]

14 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

Thing is, I already made a suggestion involving A a long time ago. With Klei confirming that they've been seeing my suggestions, it's likely that they saw it and decided not to implement it.

So A is unlikely to happen, but perhaps B has a chance. 

I am hopeful that just like us testing the new beta and changing our opinions, Klei is also adjusting their opinions throughout the beta as the skills take final shape and see testing.  Something that they decided was not necessary might make sense and be needed now that their new ideas and iterations have been added and tested for a month, and they might decide that if it is suggested again.

A and B are both more fun, more unique and interesting, and more balanced for all players type designs than the current one, and seem like they should be considered (although personally 50% move and attack reduction is a bit too much, but could definitely be figure out the right amount)