"Some players are unwilling to learn or practice" is Misconception

[Lee lol]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

Wendy is a Wilson that does abit less damage. And if you average out the increased damage Wendy and Abigail do, while Abigail is alive. Wendy will kill a boss in the same amount of time that it takes Wilson to kill a boss.

If you played Wilson solo for 50hours, you should be pretty good at the game.

But fighting bosses with wendy causes no suffering?? For very difficult bosses like bee queen, wendy is one of the best characters to fight her with. 

What suffering are you on about?

Deerclops. Bearger. CC. Lunar Bearger. Lunar plant. All the rift creatures with great aoe.

[Gashzer]

4 minutes ago, Lee lol said:

Deerclops. Bearger. CC. Lunar Bearger. Lunar plant. All the rift creatures with great aoe.

Planar weapons are not as badly affected by Wendy's 0.75x damage multiplier. 

I'm happy for "easy to kill" bosses like deerclops and bearger to become harder for wendy, if harder bosses like bee queen become easier for Wendy....

Lunar plants are very weak enemies. The increase in time to kill them is little.

 

[gaymime]

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

You was comparied with Maxwell right?

What's hard with using Maxwell? Is that hard to learn how to repeatly cast Shadow Prison?

maxwell is the character i play in pubs and with others. i greatly disagree with you saying it is easier to be him than wendy. most basically wendy doesnt get locked into a state of incurable insanity while using abigail too much while you get a reduced max sanity for each shadow you produce(for the length of its life) then when it dissipates you still have to recoup the sanity afterther is also a fixed number of times you can use shadows before you have to stop using them because they require sanity to use and you cannot raise your sanity above what you have at the start of the game(and if you lose sanity for any reason you will not be allowed to cast as many shadows). the prison also is on a timer and requires you to not only have the sanity to spend but also to cast in the correct spot or you will get the wrong enemy which, while not the hardest thing for an able-bodied player to do, is not the same as abigail who can automatically target without player input in many situations. there is also the issue that you must be much closer with maxwell to use his spells while i have seen wendy players stand far off to the side when they unleash abigail, on top of this maxwell has 75 health meaning he takes less hits to die which means you cannot take as many accidental hits before being reduced to a ghost which, in the most simple fashion, means you need a tiny bit more skill simply so you survive a little longer.

 

i can easily agree it is not all chinese players are unwilling to play/practice, it is not even all wendy players who want that but i also heavily disagree that it is because wendy is currently difficult to use and requires skill. i also heavily disagree that it is ok to lie and say other characters are easier with 0 proof and 0 knowledge of those characters.

[Lee lol]

10 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Planar weapons are not as badly affected by Wendy's 0.75x damage multiplier. 

I'm happy for "easy to kill" bosses like deerclops and bearger to become harder for wendy, if harder bosses like bee queen become easier for Wendy....

Lunar plants are very weak enemies. The increase in time to kill them is little.

 

So what is the improvement of Wendy's combat that the skill tree brings?? Is it stupid gestalt ai? Or is it the murder mechanism of Shadow Abi's trouble?? Or is it the team spirit of attacking and escaping sharing cd? Is there any essential difference between Wendy's fighting before having a skill tree and not having a skill tree?Abigail is still as fragile.

The skill tree did not solve Wendy's weakness in battle at all, but filled Abigail with piles of potion.

So you just don't want the skill tree to make up for Wendy's shortcomings. I understand. Any discussion is meaningless because we stand in different positions. There is no need to reply to me anymore.

[Yifei_]

11 hours ago, hyoton123 said:

The only fight I can see in the 33 day run vid was eye of terror but I don't use bilibili much so I don't know if there was a missing part. I'll admit that I have no idea what they say for mods in the description, either, it doesn't translate to english well at all.

Here's the translation I've checked myself:
 

Title:

【Red Rarity Skin】Wendy Speedruns All Bosses in 34.1 Days

Mods:

1.        Mayan Language (A mod that changes the dialogue of Werepig and Pigman, with no practical use, solely for entertainment purposes.)

2.        Epic Health Bar

3.        Beefalo Status Display

4.        Insight

5.        Colorful Wormholes

Timeline:

Day 1-5: Beefalo taming, Eye of Terror

Day 5-16: Ancient Guardian, Moon Caller’s Staff, Archive, Get Red Rarity Skin

Day 16-22: Moonland, Pearl, Dragonfly

Day 22-25: Crab King, Moon Storm, Twin of Terror

Day 25-34: Celestial Champion, Shadow Atrium, Nightmare Werepig, Klaus, Bee Queen, Deerclop, Toadstool

Day 34: Ancient Fuelweaver.

Discription:

This time, I've used quite a few mods, including Mayan Language, Epic Health Bars, Insight, Beefalo Status Display, and Colorful Wormholes. Among them, the Insight and Beefalo Status Display mods are indeed quite powerful, but they don't seem to speed things up much... However, they are of great help in tasks like dealing with pipspooks and finding message bottles.

It's an average score, a map that's nothing special except for giving some luck to the marble sculpture and the salt crystal. Although I was aiming for a no-rollback playthrough, I had to replay the battle against the Crab King because I didn't record it, so it doesn't count as a no-rollback run. The path to a no-rollback game is truly bumpy... This time, I mainly used the telelocator focus idea from Teacher Sanxing, setting up telelocator focus on the Moon Island and at the shadow pieces’ place, which made traveling back and forth very convenient. However, I didn't restrict the use of the console, and I farmed five cookie cutter shells and a piece of living wood (as if it were a double loots of a mush gnome), summon a deerclop, and that's all about it. On the first day of the 31st, I should have been very quick, but due to the stupid toadstool, it took more than a day to find them, until I found the last hole which was the real toadstool point. Otherwise, I felt it was possible to get into the 33rd day: 31 for fossil fragments and traveling, 32 for toadstool, and 33 for the perfect rhythm of AF. If I could have killed the toadstool in autumn, that would have been an even more perfect 32 days.

[Steorra]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Repeatedly casting shadow prison makes you insane. Now you are fighting a boss with 2 terrorbeaks. You dead, gg ez.

Seriously? 

The truth is you only need to fight your 2 Shadows beside your bosses. Then bosses died.

[gaymime]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

Seriously? 

The truth is you only need to fight your 2 Shadows beside your bosses. Then bosses died.

not true.

[Steorra]

1 hour ago, gaymime said:

most basically wendy doesnt get locked into a state of incurable insanity while using abigail too much while you get a reduced max sanity for each shadow you produce(for the length of its life) then when it dissipates you still have to recoup the sanity after meaning if you use too many you will be forced into incurable insanity if you wish to keep using them.

I'm confused. This should be the basis stratery for Maxwell fighting logic since you have to kill your Shadows to serve your Nightmare Fuels circling. And because of the Shadow Prison, you almost need no attention to the boss. Which means the boss fight just become "trapped the boss, kill your shadow, refull your fuels, trapped the boss, loop"

 

1 hour ago, gaymime said:

i greatly disagree with you saying it is easier to be him than wendy.

And have to say for most situation Maxwell is far more easy than Wendy for post-rift battle which have massive knockdown feature.

I only feels worse for Maxwell of his sailing gameplay, since the Shadows on boat is annoying, they block your click. And most shadow spell have some bug when interact with sea mobs.

[gaymime]

Just now, Steorra said:

I'm confused. This should be the basis stratery for Maxwell fighting logic since you have to kill your Shadows to serve your Nightmare Fuels circling. And because of the Shadow Prison, you almost need no attention to the boss. Which means the boss fight just become "trapped the boss, kill your shadow, refull your fuels, trapped the boss, loop"

 

incorrect. you still spent the sanity and will still have to refill 15 sanity for every shadow that was deployed. shadow prison also does NOT hurt enemies so you have to either deploy more shadows to fight it or get close enough that you can be hit to attack it yourself. (also shadows live for 30 seconds and only deal 20 damage while abigail can live indefinitely and deals much, much, much more than 20 damage). the only thing that getting rid of your shadows does is allow you the option to regain sanity. it does not replenish any sanity at all to do so and once they are gone you have to spend even more sanity to get them back. you cannot make a "circle" of shadows in boss fighting, what you can do is hope you dont die to nightmares while shadow prison is active and hope you can replenish your sanity fast while the enemy is free to attack you. it requires timing, good counting skills and being fast enough to not get hit just to do it. it requires all of that PLUS a lot of practice to do it well enough to beat bosses

also understand that you get nightmare fuel by fighting nightmare creatures. you get abigail by being alive. there is a LARGE difference between these two things.

[lio516]

2 hours ago, Gashzer said:

I disagree. Wendy has the exact same learning curve as Wilson. 

If anything, because how simple the abigail mechanic is, Wendy players have a much easier time learning how to use abigail during fights than maxwell, wurt, winona, willow. These characters have much more complicated mechanics that require different strategies, approaches and resource grind to use.

Once abigail dies you can heal her with a potion then revive her and play normally after that... that isn't complicated compared with a character like maxwell who requires you to juggle casting spells repeatedly inbetween regular melee combat while also managing his sanity levels and reduced hp means you can't make as many mistakes before dying.

Are you kidding me? Do you really think these roles are hard to practice? Is it difficult for these characters to practice by precisely clicking on an item with the mouse and selecting the right skill?

Unless you overuse your skills, there's no danger to Maxwell's sanity。The issue of health, I think it should be related to the player's personal game skill level, should not be in the character practice difficulty

[Gashzer]

2 minutes ago, lio516 said:

Are you kidding me? Do you really think these roles are hard to practice? Is it difficult for these characters to practice by precisely clicking on an item with the mouse and selecting the right skill?

This same logic also applies to Wendy.

Is it really that hard to get over Abigail's fragility? It's not even a problem in every boss fight.

[lio516]

Just now, Gashzer said:

Is it really that hard to get over Abigail's fragility? It's not even a problem in every boss fight.

If it's not someone who has been playing Wendy or has studied, yes, it would be difficult to keep Abigail from dying in most boss fights, and one more thing, even if you did protect Abigail, it would probably take you more time than it would have taken to fight Wendy on her own。Don't you find it contradictory?

[Steorra]

16 minutes ago, gaymime said:

incorrect. you still spent the sanity and will still have to refill 15 sanity for every shadow that was deployed. shadow prison also does NOT hurt enemies so you have to either deploy more shadows to fight it or get close enough that you can be hit to attack it yourself. (also shadows live for 30 seconds and only deal 20 damage while abigail can live indefinitely and deals much, much, much more than 20 damage). the only thing that getting rid of your shadows does is allow you the option to regain sanity. it does not replenish any sanity at all to do so and once they are gone you have to spend even more sanity to get them back. you cannot make a "circle" of shadows in boss fighting, what you can do is hope you dont die to nightmares while shadow prison is active and hope you can replenish your sanity fast while the enemy is free to attack you. it requires timing, good counting skills and being fast enough to not get hit just to do it. it requires all of that PLUS a lot of practice to do it well enough to beat bosses

also understand that you get nightmare fuel by fighting nightmare creatures. you get abigail by being alive. there is a LARGE difference between these two things.

I feel strange if I have to argue about that if Maxwell is OP or not.

He is OP, far more than Wendy, which means far more EZ than Wendy for high damage output.

Also have to say there's a mechanic that you may stop your Shadow Creature spawning when you have low sanity.

 

And i have no idea what makes you feel harder for basic skills of Maxwell, I guess the most easy thing is to record a lunar bearger fight as Maxwell for you? P.S my Maxwell experience even shorter than 100 days.

And have to say right click Duelist is just same ez as right click prison. Have no idea why simple click spamming would be hard.

Or fighting the shadow creature would be hard? Strange.

5 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I feel strange if I have to argue about that if Maxwell is OP or not.

He is OP, far more than Wendy, which means far more EZ than Wendy for high damage output.

Also have to say there's a mechanic that you may stop your Shadow Creature spawning when you have low sanity.

 

And i have no idea what makes you feel harder for basic skills of Maxwell, I guess the most easy thing is to record a lunar bearger fight as Maxwell for you? P.S my Maxwell experience even shorter than 100 days.

And have to say right click Duelist is just same ez as right click prison. Have no idea why simple click spamming would be hard.

Or fighting the shadow creature would be hard? Strange.

Additionally, Maxwell has a mechanic which lower his Duelist damage, but you could simply ignore this mechanic by dealing with your own two Shadow Creatures. Then your Duelist reached their maximum damage for killing the bosses 

[gaymime]

6 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I feel strange if I have to argue about that if Maxwell is OP or not.

He is OP, far more than Wendy, which means far more EZ than Wendy for high damage output.

Also have to say there's a mechanic that you may stop your Shadow Creature spawning when you have low sanity.

 

And i have no idea what makes you feel harder for basic skills of Maxwell, I guess the most easy thing is to record a lunar bearger fight as Maxwell for you? P.S my Maxwell experience even shorter than 100 days.

And have to say right click Duelist is just same ez as right click prison. Have no idea why simple click spamming would be hard.

Or fighting the shadow creature would be hard? Strange.

Additionally, Maxwell has a mechanic which lower his Duelist damage, but you could simply ignore this mechanic by dealing with your own two Shadow Creatures. Then your Duelist reached their maximum damage for killing the bosses 

you need to play maxwell more.

[Gashzer]

11 minutes ago, lio516 said:

If it's not someone who has been playing Wendy or has studied, yes, it would be difficult to keep Abigail from dying in most boss fights, and one more thing, even if you did protect Abigail, it would probably take you more time than it would have taken to fight Wendy on her own。Don't you find it contradictory?

Why does abigail need to stay alive? 

For the time Abigail is alive, Wendy does more damage plus the damage abigail does adds up.

This means you can let abigail die and continue the fight as if you are Wilson. 

Abigail is very powerful for non-boss fight encounters and is extremely convenient to use. 

Once gestalt abigail is worked on some more by klei I'm sure it will become the boss killer abigail form.

[Steorra]

10 minutes ago, gaymime said:

you need to play maxwell more.

So, if i could dealt with almost every bosses by using Maxwell, why I need play more? 

6 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Why does abigail need to stay alive? 

For the time Abigail is alive, Wendy does more damage plus the damage abigail does adds up.

This means you can let abigail die and continue the fight as if you are Wilson. 

Abigail is very powerful for non-boss fight encounters and is extremely convenient to use. 

Once gestalt abigail is worked on some more by klei I'm sure it will become the boss killer abigail form.

Because Wendy is not a challenge character like Wes. Abi is the only core feature of Wendy. DST have no other character who would easily lose all their core feature by misattention

 

[lio516]

3 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

This means you can let abigail die and continue the fight as if you are Wilson. 

The Wendy who lost Abigail, it wasn't Wilson, it was Wes

[gaymime]

Just now, Steorra said:

So, if i could dealt with almost every bosses by using Maxwell, why I need play more? 

that presupposes if you "could". you do not understand his mechanics well at all. i don't believe you can beat hardly any bosses as him because i dont believe you have actually played as maxwell. the way you talk about him sounds like you don't know him at all and do not understand how he is played.

Just now, lio516 said:

The Wendy who lost Abigail, it wasn't Wilson, it was Wes

false.

[Steorra]

13 minutes ago, gaymime said:

that presupposes if you "could". you do not understand his mechanics well at all. 

Is there a possibility that Maxwell is OP so that I need know nothing about his details for beating those bosses?

 

15 minutes ago, gaymime said:

i don't believe you can beat hardly any bosses as him

You may ask. I would give your videos when Im available for my PC.

Btw, The first boss I was beaten by using Maxwell is Bee Queen 

[gaymime]

Just now, Steorra said:

Is there a possibility that Maxwell is OP so that I need know nothing about his details for beating those bosses?

no.

[Steorra]

7 minutes ago, gaymime said:

no.

Funny.

You should go argue with those who think Maxwell is OP but not wasting your time on me.

[WeWoWa]

12 minutes ago, gaymime said:

no.

yes.

[SilverSpoon]

22 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Why does abigail need to stay alive? 

For the time Abigail is alive, Wendy does more damage plus the damage abigail does adds up.

This means you can let abigail die and continue the fight as if you are Wilson. 

Because they play Wendy. 

I think 99% of who play Wendy want to play as Wendy, and they won't be happy being forced to play Wilson with x0.75 damage modifier.

And I think it's OK that there is the option for beginners (especially Wendy  is considered character for beginner) to play as Wendy for longer, and if someone say "You don't deserve to play Wendy unless you learn the skills", I'll just say "Nuh-uh".

[Lardee]

3 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

 

1. I want to have a larger margin for error. Previously, Lardee told me that pausing can simplify AF battles, and I accepted his advice, which indeed increased my success rate significantly. However, on public servers, I cannot pause, and even after practicing many times, I still cannot guarantee the same success rate as when I face Nightmare Werepig alone.

 

But you have the incredibly OP option of bringing in friends on public servers. Also, nice strat to trigger the Werepig's fatigue with the ice staff.

3 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

1. Compared to other characters, Wendy’s learning curve is too steep and too difficult. If you choose characters like Wigfird, Willow, Wolfgang, Wortox, Maxwell, etc., you’ll find that their margin for error and difficulty when facing AF and CC are lower than Wendy’s (of course, these character examples might not be the most accurate). I don’t want a new player to be repeatedly frustrated when playing Wendy and then realize that switching to another character makes things much easier.

Some characters require more skill than others depending on the situation. Bringing up AF and CC in order to make an argument about how difficult new players have it is kind of wild. If we're talking about new players, Wendy offers way more advantages to them than Wigfrid, Willow, Wolfgang, Wortox and Maxwell. That's the tradeoff. Some characters have it easier than others depending on the situation.

 

3 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

1. I have a neutral stance on whether the "player tag" is appropriate or not. But what I clearly hope for is to enhance Abby’s survivability. There might be better ways to achieve this.

 

There solution for Abigail's survivability is to constantly apply Spectral Cure All to her which is a tactic that is totally viable now considering each pipspook gives you enough to last you half a game day. And in the case Abigail does die, you bring her back with Ghastly Experience.

Having the ability to increase Abigail's HP by 300 at the sisturn would make this even easier.

The second is Gestalt Abigail.

 

[gaymime]

15 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Funny.

You should go argue with those who think Maxwell is OP but not wasting your time on me.

you think maxwell is op.