Suggestion: An actual solution to appease everyone! (Hopefully?)

[Evelo]

So since some people really want Abigail to be super tanky, and others want her to stay fragile, how about we just have it a server toggle, this would give various player entity protection to ghost creatures (including Abigail).

Call it Ghostly Protection:  Flimsy | Default | Protected

Flimsy: Ghosts take extra damage from all sources. (They take between 50%-100% extra damage depending on what Klei wants to do, 50% is half, 100% is double.)

Default: What we currently have in Live DST

Protected: Ghosts have player protection. (or Take between 50%-100% less damage depending on what Klei wants to do, 50% is half, 100% is double.)

 

Why I believe this would be a better work around:

This would give players who wish to have the player protection for abigail while letting it be a choice based on the server host, that way if someone wants to play multiplayer with others, they can host the world with their rule set.

The main issue seems to be balance which we cannot agree on: if we move the option to balance behind a server setting then players can balance how they want on a per server basis, rather than blanket across the entire game.

 

While we are at it we can add other gameplay balance settings into the DST server settings list. Such as celestial portal being craftable, skill trees being enabled/disabled, etc. We already have some balance adjustment stuff when you consider Max Health Penalty, Damage taken, Temperature Damage, Hunger Damage, Darkness Damage, etc. We have non-lethal options for those, with damage we have a "more" choice, how about we do this for more? It would benefit everyone in the long run.

[Steorra]

1. Normally a skill tree patch won't change base settings of the game. That's why there were some arguments regarding the CureAll recipe nerfing.

2. 

8 minutes ago, Evelo said:

So since some people really want Abigail to be super tanky,

And this is not true. At the current stage the Abi with Blessed Sisturn III is just Okay, not supertanky. Even with CureAll spamming, she is still more fragile than spider army (nurse spiders) and merts. Even she would be fragile than BERNIE! who has the planar entity by its skills. And worse than treeguards of Woodie.

We all know BERNIE! and treeguards are not a core feature of those characters. I have no idea why as Wendy's only core feature, Abi should become far more fragile than other supporting followers.

[Xplan]

3 minutes ago, Evelo said:

So since some people really want Abigail to be super tanky, and others want her to stay fragile, how about we just have it a server toggle, this would give various player entity protection to ghost creatures (including Abigail).

it's nice to see you take both of them into considerations.

but what is the advantage of making it a server toggle instead of a skill.

[Steorra]

Also it's easy to appease everyone by giving the survival ability only to regular Abi. To make the survival enhancement inactive when cursed vex or shadow abi applied.

But this idea still piss someone off. Because they want both regular and Shadow Affinity Abi serve as their playstyle. The only satisfy "compromise" for them is to force casual to use Lunar Abi (which is completely unpopular and broken at the current stage.)

[yinjiu019]

37 minutes ago, Steorra said:

1. Normally a skill tree patch won't change base settings of the game. That's why there were some arguments regarding the CureAll recipe nerfing.

2. 

And this is not true. At the current stage the Abi with Blessed Sisturn III is just Okay, not supertanky. Even with CureAll spamming, she is still more fragile than spider army (nurse spiders) and merts. Even she would be fragile than BERNIE! who has the planar entity by its skills. And worse than treeguards of Woodie.

We all know BERNIE! and treeguards are not a core feature of those characters. I have no idea why as Wendy's only core feature, Abi should become far more fragile than other supporting followers.

Strongly agree☆⌒(*＾-゜)v THX!!

[SilverSpoon]

Sorry, but I don't agree. Abigail's player tag should belong to Wedey, not the server host, and Wendy already has the option to use "Blessed Sisturn III" or not. The same goes for characters other than Wendy.

I agree that the server host should also be able to control it, for example, so that the server host can prevent characters from learning some insights.

[Mysterious box]

I still say the real solution is to just give it to gestalt abi since that was the intention of the form in the first place but also to lock the form behind the rifts since that's when it's supposed to come into effect anyway.

3 hours ago, Steorra said:

Also it's easy to appease everyone by giving the survival ability only to regular Abi. To make the survival enhancement inactive when cursed vex or shadow abi applied.

But this idea still piss someone off. Because they want both regular and Shadow Affinity Abi serve as their playstyle. The only satisfy "compromise" for them is to force casual to use Lunar Abi (which is completely unpopular and broken at the current stage.)

This doesn't really work conceptually if gestalt abigial is designed to be a survivability mode but base abigial is already a tank then gestalt abigial has no purpose.

[cyjs]

In fact, most of them are dissatisfied with the design of this skill tree. You obviously missed the point.

For those who think Wendy's skill tree is too powerful, my advice is not to use Wendy's skill tree. you can turn it off

[RussoDaFederal]

3 hours ago, Evelo said:

So since some people really want Abigail to be super tanky, and others want her to stay fragile, how about we just have it a server toggle, this would give various player entity protection to ghost creatures (including Abigail).

Call it Ghostly Protection:  Flimsy | Default | Protected

Flimsy: Ghosts take extra damage from all sources. (They take between 50%-100% extra damage depending on what Klei wants to do, 50% is half, 100% is double.)

Default: What we currently have in Live DST

Protected: Ghosts have player protection. (or Take between 50%-100% less damage depending on what Klei wants to do, 50% is half, 100% is double.)

 

Why I believe this would be a better work around:

This would give players who wish to have the player protection for abigail while letting it be a choice based on the server host, that way if someone wants to play multiplayer with others, they can host the world with their rule set.

The main issue seems to be balance which we cannot agree on: if we move the option to balance behind a server setting then players can balance how they want on a per server basis, rather than blanket across the entire game.

 

While we are at it we can add other gameplay balance settings into the DST server settings list. Such as celestial portal being craftable, skill trees being enabled/disabled, etc. We already have some balance adjustment stuff when you consider Max Health Penalty, Damage taken, Temperature Damage, Hunger Damage, Darkness Damage, etc. We have non-lethal options for those, with damage we have a "more" choice, how about we do this for more? It would benefit everyone in the long run.

This is fine and all but doesn't address the issue of what to replace sisturn 3 with. I wouldn't mind that at all and would personally leave at default like most of my world settings, but since you can go crazy with world settings, ghost protection doesn't even seem like that big of a deal.

3 hours ago, Steorra said:

At the current stage the Abi with Blessed Sisturn III is just Okay, not supertanky. Even with CureAll spamming, she is still more fragile than spider army (nurse spiders) and merts.

Sorry, but that's either dishonest or delusional. If you want an army, you can get an army of pigmen, bunnymen or cave lobsters with any character (well except Webber, Wurt and Wortox who can't interact with pigmen). It's unfair and misleading to compare Abigail to armies of mobs. Currently, Abigail is extremely tanky, sisturn 3 doubles the efficiency of her healing sources. Do the math.

3 hours ago, Steorra said:

The only satisfy "compromise" for them is to force casual to use Lunar Abi (which is completely unpopular and broken at the current stage.)

Tbf I agree that gestalt Abi is very weak currently and I personally think we could go back to the previous version, just do something else to avoid Abi "soloing bosses" like people were complaining. My suggestion was to remove the rile up command for her gestalt form, forcing Wendy to manually attack a target for Abi to join the fight.

[Steorra]

46 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Sorry, but that's either dishonest or delusional. If you want an army, you can get an army of pigmen, bunnymen or cave lobsters with any character (well except Webber, Wurt and Wortox who can't interact with pigmen). It's unfair and misleading to compare Abigail to armies of mobs. Currently, Abigail is extremely tanky, sisturn 3 doubles the efficiency of her healing sources. Do the math.

the dishonest one is you. no one could rise an army with nurses supporting but only Webber.

And no math shows that current Abi is supertanky.

600HP with 50% damage reduction + Cure-All V.S. 2600HP with planar entity tag + sewing kits

it's obviously planar entity tag with 2600HP is far more tanky.

Same for treeguards.

And no need to say nurse spider who give infinity healing. 

Also here's a question, for current special followers of all characters, which one is the most fragile?

I have no idea which special follower is more fragile than current Abi even with the Player Tag. 

(Please don't ignore nurses when you talking about spiders. That's completely dishonest and unfair.)

[RussoDaFederal]

11 minutes ago, Steorra said:

the dishonest one is you. no one could rise an army with nurses supporting but only Webber.

That is definitely not what I said. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and pretend that this was a translation error.

 

12 minutes ago, Steorra said:

600HP with 50% damage reduction + Cure-All V.S. 2600HP with planar entity tag + sewing kits

Why are you comparing her to bernie? Bernie is also super tanky, so what? If you want to have bernie by your side, pick Willow. Plus, 50% less damage means spectral cure alls have double efficiency. Surely you can put those numbers together. Why not just stick to someone else's suggestion (it's not even mine, since you are inclined to dismiss everything I say) and double her health instead of giving her 50% damage reduction? It will effectively give her just as much bulk and won't completely break the usage of a pre existing elixir.

 

14 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Same for treeguards.

What do treeguards have to do with any of this???

 

14 minutes ago, Steorra said:

And no need to say nurse spider who give infinity healing. 

Sure. Go play Webber then. He's the only one who has access to spider followers, and we were never talking about spiders.

 

15 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Also here's a question, for current special followers of all characters, which one is the most fragile?

You can't be serious. Who are you trying to convince here? Of course one of the followers will need to have less health, that's how it works. You have a finite number of characters with followers, one of them is gonna be at the bottom of the list no matter what, unless they're all equal. And there's nothing wrong with that. 600 health is pretty generous already, 1200 health (like some people are suggesting, revert sisturn 3 to what it was but make the extra health last until she dies) is huge. I could care less about bernie and other followers, we're discussing Abigail and Abigail alone. Stop trying to run from the problem at hand. Stop comparing Wendy to Willow.

 

19 minutes ago, Steorra said:

(Please don't ignore nurses when you talking about spiders. That's completely dishonest and unfair.)

I was talking specifically about pigmen, bunnymen and cave lobsters. Spiders are unique to Webber. I want to compare Wendy to the average character, not nitpick "oh but Willow can do this and that!!! Can Wendy do the same???" no she can't, and that's the whole point of having different characters.

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

You can't be serious. Who are you trying to convince here? Of course one of the followers will need to have less health, that's how it works. You have a finite number of characters with followers, one of them is gonna be at the bottom of the list no matter what, unless they're all equal. And there's nothing wrong with that. 600 health is pretty generous already, 1200 health (like some people are suggesting, revert sisturn 3 to what it was but make the extra health last until she dies) is huge. I could care less about bernie and other followers, we're discussing Abigail and Abigail alone. Stop trying to run from the problem at hand. Stop comparing Wendy to Willow.

We are talking about balance I assumed, right?

If the topic is about the balance, there's no reason to compare with all other characters who have their special followers.

Abi is the core feature of Wendy;

BERNIE! is not of Willow but is more OP than Abi when clearing ruins, soloing bosses, or simply tanking.

Treeguards is not core feature of Woodie, but we all know how they easili swarmed AFW and CC.

Spiders is core feature of Webber. They could easily kill lunar dearclop in 1mins with only fire staff helping. 

Merms? kek.

 

Oh, so you are not going to talk about balance? If you insist something should be change based on your personal interest, then we have nothing to say more.

9 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

I was talking specifically about pigmen, bunnymen and cave lobsters. Spiders are unique to Webber. I want to compare Wendy to the average character, not nitpick "oh but Willow can do this and that!!! Can Wendy do the same???" no she can't, and that's the whole point of having different characters.

So I was talking about special followers. There seems a flexible standard that you have the right to decide what charater should be compare with Wendy, but I don't have this right.

[Dingle]

3 minutes ago, Steorra said:

We are talking about balance I assumed, right?

If the topic is about the balance, there's no reason to compare with all other characters who have their special followers.

Abi is the core feature of Wendy;

BERNIE! is not of Willow but is more OP than Abi when clearing ruins, soloing bosses, or simply tanking.

Treeguards is not core feature of Woodie, but we all know how they easili swarmed AFW and CC.

Spiders is core feature of Webber. They could easily kill lunar dearclop in 1mins with only fire staff helping. 

Merms? kek.

 

Oh, so you are not going to talk about balance? If you insist something should be change based on your personal interest, then we have nothing to say more.

So I was talking about special followers. There seems a flexible standard that you have the right to decide what charater should be compare with Wendy, but I don't have this right.

Can webber spiders kill armored bearger?

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Can webber spiders kill armored bearger?

oh, they actually can give the lunar bearger a sweet sudden death in only 30 seconds. (the video follows showed how they swarm bearger and lunar bearger so it took a bit longer)

【饥荒】韦伯蜘蛛大军零阵亡击杀月灵熊大和月灵座狼_哔哩哔哩bilibili_饥荒_游戏实况

I know Abi might have a chance to solo lunar bearger under the teamspirit help. But when we talking about the time costing... hmm. 

Even I wonder if Wendy with Abi who already have skill tree in current beta could do same thing or not.

[RussoDaFederal]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

BERNIE! is not of Willow but is more OP than Abi when clearing ruins, soloing bosses, or simply tanking.

That is true except for the part of soloing bosses. And honestly I don't care. Let Willow be better than Wendy, who cares. Does Wendy need to be the best character of all time or does she need to be fun? I'd easily pick fun over meta. And Wendy is better for other tasks anyway, each character should have strong and weak points.

 

2 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Oh, so you are not going to talk about balance? If you insist something should be change based on your personal interest, then we have nothing to say more.

Are you misinterpreting everything I say on purpose? Follower this, follower that, I already pointed out ANY CHARACTER can have a ton of followers. Build 50 bunnymen houses and watch them completely destroy anything that moves. You can do that with Wes for all I care. It doesn't prove anything. Comparing Abigail to Bernie is less of a problem, but comparing her to 50 of anything is ridiculous. Again, stop running from the discussion at hand. Comparing her to others isn't helping, I want you to prove that doubling her healing factor with the current 50% damage reduction isn't busted. I want numbers, not "oh but Maxwell can do this". I don't care about the other characters unless you provide some hard comparison data with numbers and tables.

[Steorra]

10 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Can webber spiders kill armored bearger?

【月后】暴力月岛蜘蛛秒杀装甲熊獾_哔哩哔哩bilibili_饥荒

this is even more faster, only 27 seconds have been past (56" ~ 1'22")

[Dingle]

6 minutes ago, Steorra said:

oh, they actually can give the lunar bearger a sweet sudden death in only 30 seconds. (the video follows showed how they swarm bearger and lunar bearger so it took a bit longer)

【饥荒】韦伯蜘蛛大军零阵亡击杀月灵熊大和月灵座狼_哔哩哔哩bilibili_饥荒_游戏实况

I know Abi might have a chance to solo lunar bearger under the teamspirit help. But when we talking about the time costing... hmm. 

Even I wonder if Wendy with Abi who already have skill tree in current beta could do same thing or not.

Oh that's funny, the ice staff is the trick with Webber spamming it.

Could Wendy do the same with bunnymen houses?

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Are you misinterpreting everything I say on purpose? Follower this, follower that, I already pointed out ANY CHARACTER can have a ton of followers. 

If we are talking about balance, then it should comparing with special follower.

6 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

, but comparing her to 50 of anything is ridiculous. 

sorry, only 12 mid-type treeguards EZ killed the toad (50k HP), only 20 treeguards could deal with AFW

And even spiders need no more than 50.

Merms only need lesser than 9 for most sceranios would be far stronger than Abi.

7 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

And honestly I don't care. Let Willow be better than Wendy, who cares. Does Wendy need to be the best character of all time or does she need to be fun? I'd easily pick fun over meta. 

So your opinions are not based on balance issue? I know. No more discussion needed. You may go ask let Wendy become more fun (for you only) and become the most weaker one if you like. I respect your will.

2 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Could Wendy do the same with bunnymen houses?

No.

Spitters and shattered (the lunar spider) gave massive DPS from a distant. Bunnymen would just stuipidly block themselves, which means even you rise 1000000 bunnymen for this combat, only lesser than 10 of them could dealt damage to boss.

[Dingle]

7 minutes ago, Steorra said:

If we are talking about balance, then it should comparing with special follower.

sorry, only 12 mid-type treeguards EZ killed the toad (50k HP), only 20 treeguards could deal with AFW

And even spiders need no more than 50.

Merms only need lesser than 9 for most sceranios would be far stronger than Abi.

So your opinions are not based on balance issue? I know. No more discussion needed. You may go ask let Wendy become more fun (for you only) and become the most weaker one if you like. I respect your will.

No.

Spitters and shattered (the lunar spider) gave massive DPS from a distant. Bunnymen would just stuipidly block themselves, which means even you rise 1000000 bunnymen for this combat, only lesser than 10 of them could dealt damage to boss.

10 doesn't sound right but point taken.

[RussoDaFederal]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

So your opinions are not based on balance issue?

My opinions are not. I have personal opinions about the game and I have no problem in talking about them. Don't confuse them with objective stuff. Answer my question. Can you prove that 50% damage reduction combined with spectral cure all isn't too strong? It's the 3rd time you avoided that question.

To be clear, what I'm trying to point out here is that the 50% damage reduction is busted, nothing else. You already said in another topic that you're willing to let that go if we get double health in return, which I agree. When I point out "who cares if Wendy is better than Willow" it's because I'm tired of these comparisons made by you, not because I personally want Wendy to be stronger or weaker. Like I said, I don't care. What I care about here is Abi's 50% damage reduction and nothing else.

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, RussoDaFederal said:

My opinions are not. I have personal opinions about the game and I have no problem in talking about them. Don't confuse them with objective stuff. Answer my question. Can you prove that 50% damage reduction combined with spectral cure all isn't too strong? It's the 3rd time you avoided that question.

To be clear, what I'm trying to point out here is that the 50% damage reduction is busted, nothing else. You already said in another topic that you're willing to let that go if we get double health in return, which I agree. When I point out "who cares if Wendy is better than Willow" it's because I'm tired of these comparisons made by you, not because I personally want Wendy to be stronger or weaker. Like I said, I don't care. What I care about here is Abi's 50% damage reduction and nothing else.

Constantly comparing Wendy to other characters and going "see, this completely different character is stronger in some way!" is the tactic you're going to see for the rest of the beta.

I alternate between making fun of it or ignoring it for other discussion.

Let's see if the devs buy it.

[Steorra]

2 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

 Can you prove that 50% damage reduction combined with spectral cure all isn't too strong?

the point is, if you want to talk about "strong" or "weak", it would be a topic regarding balance itself.

If not concerns balance, then the standard become "my standard" or "your standard" personally. that would be meaningless for a discussion.

Just now, Dingle said:

Constantly comparing Wendy to other characters and going "see, this completely different character is stronger in some way!" is the tactic you're going to see for the rest of the beta.

I alternate between making fun of it or ignoring it for other discussion.

Let's see if the devs buy it.

things become weird. so now some of you start to talking about "strong" and "OP" but ignoring the balance factors?

[RussoDaFederal]

12 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Spitters and shattered (the lunar spider) gave massive DPS from a distant. Bunnymen would just stuipidly block themselves, which means even you rise 1000000 bunnymen for this combat, only lesser than 10 of them could dealt damage to boss.

Alright, that much is true, but tell me why that matters. Webber can summon spiders to do a lot of damage. So what? What's your point? Wendy needs to be stronger than everyone? Let's buff Wolfgang then since he can't come even close to dealing the same damage as Webber or Wurt. Let's buff everyone to deal around the same damage as 20 followers, how does that sound?

[Dingle]

4 minutes ago, Steorra said:

 

things become weird. so now some of you start to talking about "strong" and "OP" but ignoring the balance factors?

What?

[RussoDaFederal]

7 minutes ago, Steorra said:

the point is, if you want to talk about "strong" or "weak", it would be a topic regarding balance itself.

If not concerns balance, then the standard become "my standard" or "your standard" personally. that would be meaningless for a discussion.

4th time. Just answer my question, please. Feel free to ignore anything else, just answer this one question regarding objective balance.