Ignoring player tags, let's focus on who Wendy really is

[RiceMilk]

Why am I posting this?

Since Wendy's skill tree was updated to the test server, I have seen a lot of discussions on the forum. Unfortunately, many discussions will not yield results. Because the discussants lack consensus on some fundamental and crucial information, such as whether Wendy is strong or weak.

 

Therefore, I don't want to discuss player tags first. Now I want to discuss what I think Wendy really is.

 

What kind of players is Wendy suitable for?

Generally speaking, Wendy is considered a character suitable for novice players. Abigail can protect Wendy in the early battles and shine at night.

 

Of course, I think being suitable for beginners is a positive evaluation. But being suitable for beginners should not be the core positioning of a character, it is just a coincidence that "abilities happen to be suitable for new players". In fact, players who enjoy summoning objects may play Wendy, players who hope to help their teammates in team battles may play Wendy, and players who simply enjoy character style may also play Wendy. Therefore, Wendy should never be viewed with an attitude of "early role/novice role". I firmly believe that no role should only appear in the early/late stages.

 

What is Wendy's characteristic?

I think everyone will come up with the same answer: Abigail. Even Wendy's fearlessness of ghosts comes from Abigail. Therefore, if you want to showcase Wendy's unique qualities, you should make her different from other characters due to the presence of Abigail, such as emphasizing her coordination with Abigail during battles.

 

What is Wendy's positioning?

I can confirm that Wendy is a pure combat character. Wendy cannot do anything that other characters cannot do except for combat.

Of course, I believe that skill trees can provide some interesting functionality for a combat character. They did the same in the skill trees of Wolfgang and Valkyrie. But ensuring Wendy can fulfill her responsibilities as a combat character remains the most important.

 

What are the issues that Wendy needs to address in the current version?

I think the biggest problem is that Abigail fell behind during the game update.

 

DST has updated increasingly powerful enemies, and there will only be more in the future. Player characters also benefit from these updates, receiving a lot of equipment to tackle challenges. But! Abigail did not get any growth. This has made Abigail increasingly vulnerable when facing new enemies.

 

So its increasingly difficult for Wendy to fulfill the responsibilities of a combat role.

I hope everyone can understand that combat characters should be stronger and more convenient in terms of combat, rather than the opposite. At present, Wendy's battles are either extremely troublesome or require extremely high skills, which is unreasonable. The battles of combat characters should not be more complicated than those of ordinary characters, requiring higher skills.

 

Is Wendy strong or weak?

I think the answer to this question depends on the type of player.

 

If a player is still in the early stages of the game and spiders & dogs are still a big challenge for him, then Wendy is indeed very powerful.

If a player is already in the late stages of the game and has extremely high skills to ensure Abigail's survival in extremely dangerous environments, in order to unleash Wendy's full potential, then he may consider Wendy to be powerful. (But probably not stronger than other combat characters either)

If a player considers multiple perspectives such as "the role of the character in the team," "whether the effort put in is proportional to the reward," and "whether other characters can do it more easily," then Wendy may be weak (after all, other combat characters are really powerful).

 

I don't oppose any of these views, but I just want to say that whether you think Wendy is strong or weak, she should not be punished on the skill tree.

 

By the way, about Beeflo.

Cows are often Wendy's good partners. But the cow was targeted too severely by the new monster. The result of falling is often devastating, whether it frees the boss from hate or reload the day, its all means the battle begins again. I can't understand why we have to do this. In my opinion, cows are not very strong, and it's easier and cheaper for combat characters to defeat enemies on their own.

 

If only this problem could be solved, regardless of whether the solution comes from Wendy's skill tree or not. Taking care of both the cow and Abigail at the same time is a nightmare experience, and Wendy players should not be deprived of the fun on the cow.

 

As for the issue of Abigail's buff on cow damage, I believe that since Wendy herself, her teammates, and even followers can enjoy Abigail's buff, there is no reason why Wendy's cow cannot enjoy it.

 

 

[hyoton123]

4 minutes ago, RiceMilk said:

What are the issues that Wendy needs to address in the current version?

I think the biggest problem is that Abigail fell behind during the game update.

TBH I think the biggest problem wendy has is that people insist on seeing her through the lens of a (relative to her) slow clunky fragile follower and trying to patch that rather than improving her macro. 

[renamoe]

Thank you for sharing your perspective—it's very logical and compelling.

I fully agree with your point that both Wendy and Abigail have been left far behind due to the updates in the game. With the introduction of increasingly powerful enemies and evolving challenges, Wendy and Abigail haven't kept pace with the growth of other characters.

The skill tree is meant to act as a much-needed refresher for Wendy, offering new options and opportunities to keep her viable and engaging. It wouldn't be fair to judge Wendy or Abigail solely through the lens of outdated mechanics and concepts. Both deserve to evolve alongside the game, ensuring they remain fun and rewarding to play for all types of players.

[RiceMilk]

5 minutes ago, renamoe said:

I fully agree with your point that both Wendy and Abigail have been left far behind due to the updates in the game. With the introduction of increasingly powerful enemies and evolving challenges, Abigail hasn’t kept pace with the growth of other characters or the tools available to them.

The skill tree is meant to act as a much-needed refresher for Wendy, offering new options and opportunities to keep her viable and engaging. 

In fact, compared to endowing Abigail with certain abilities now, it is more important to ensure that she can continue to play a role in continuous updates.

Perhaps the best solution is the new boss's rewards can provide change for Abigail.

[Xplan]

completely the truth

[Cassielu]

I am sad to see whole forum are arguing about a multiplier number and ignore more important issues.

I still think the Pipispook and Mourning Glory is Wendy's biggest problem that need to solve: She has too much power/content was given by a painful boring minigame that lack of connection to the rest of the game world.

[Xplan]

35 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

TBH I think the biggest problem wendy has is that people insist on seeing her through the lens of a (relative to her) slow clunky fragile follower and trying to patch that rather than improving her macro. 

your problem is mentioned in the post.

41 minutes ago, RiceMilk said:

If a player considers multiple perspectives such as "the role of the character in the team," "whether the effort put in is proportional to the reward," and "whether other characters can do it more easily," then Wendy may be weak (after all, other combat characters are really powerful).

 

[hyoton123]

22 minutes ago, Xplan said:

your problem is mentioned in the post.

 

It is not. Wendy’s problem is not that she is worse than other combat characters. She isn’t, and she’s good in a lot of situations where most characters aren’t good. Upgrading abigail is kind of a fool’s errand though. You just have all the same problems over again.

[1007954611]

Until now, some people's thinking remains stuck in 2020, because at that time only Wendy had AOE, and now almost everyone with skill trees has AOE..
The 0.75 multiplier debuff and this Vex offset are definitely cost-effective because this Vex is too difficult to use, and Abgail's survival ability is a big issue. When facing AOE bosses, a slap can basically deal 150HP damage, and Ghostly Elixir needs to be used almost all the time. Some individual bosses can easily detach from their hatred and attack Abgail when they move their positions. At least when I play Wendy, many bosses wear marble armor and stand and stab
Some people say cows, but I can only say that cows are very strong, not Wendy

[Yifei_]

I completely agree with your points. Wendy should not be considered just a beginner character; her potential as a combat character should be fully realized. Abigail needs updates to keep up with the game's progression, and Wendy's skill tree should be adjusted to make her more effective in challenging battles. The balance between complexity and ease in combat should also be improved.

[Catapult 2.0]

10 hours ago, RiceMilk said:

t Wendy is a pure combat character.

A lot of people don't figure out Wendy's positioning, in fact, she's just a combat character, she doesn't have any ability to get resources and work efficiently, and all of her abilities are related to combat despite the skill tree. And Wendy's aoe ability, which she used to be proud of, has become a regular skill for everyone in the skill tree era, and fighting spider bees is no longer a big deal.

[Bumber64]

10 hours ago, RiceMilk said:

As for the issue of Abigail's buff on cow damage, I believe that since Wendy herself, her teammates, and even followers can enjoy Abigail's buff, there is no reason why Wendy's cow cannot enjoy it.

The issue is that the buff Wendy gets on a beefalo isn't the same as the buff her teammates get on a beefalo. It's 1.55x for Wendy and 1.15x for anyone else. Cursed vexation brings it above 2.1x, IIRC.

Beefalo are equally difficult to manage for everyone, but only Wendy gets the crazy damage boost. And that's on top of the damage Abigail is already dealing.

[YuRinshue]

Your viewpoint is very logical, and I agree with it.

At the same time, I will also add a historical legacy issue that may be forgotten by most players.

 

Even before DST was released, during the DS era, Abigail was already a 600 HP unit.During the DST period, Abigail remained a unit of 600 HP. Yes, it may not seem strange, but in fact, all non weak units of DST have doubled or even more health than before.

During the DS era, the enemy with the highest health may only have 4000 points. But during DST, the boss's health can reach 4000-6000 points in any season. And advanced bosses like Dragonfly even have a health fluctuation of 2750 to 27500.

Everyone knows that Abigail's AI level is quite clumsy. During the DS era, due to the balance of the numerical environment, Abigail's AI problem was not severe.

But during the DST period, things were completely different. Abigail's AI and its environment incompatible 600 HP limit were clearly struggling in DST.

Just because the player's skills and the level of the environment are still within tolerance, this issue will not be resolved.As the environment changes, Abigail's decline is becoming increasingly apparent. And Corre also launched Wendy's first remake, which caused a sensation in the test suit at the time, but the ending was reluctantly accepted. This allowed Abigail's problem to be slightly improved through instructions, but still had many unresolved contradictions (such as Abigail's AI and 600 HP limit), and created new contradictions (such as the boredom of Pipspook missions and the bloated and inefficient elixir system), but the brilliance of Wendy and Bull's combination overshadowed this problem.(Addendum: Many people may have forgotten that in the past, Wendy only needed to prepare a lot of Abigail flowers and food to restore her spirit, and could constantly summon Abigail with full health.

Therefore, I am very disgusted with the idea that "Spectral Cure All" is a solution to the problem. On the contrary, I think it is just a compensation for Abigail flowers not sharing CDs, rather than a reward.)

And now we have come to the versions of Skill Tree and Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift. The enemies with flying attacks and various new mechanisms, as well as the even more exaggerated Lurking Nightmare, have completely eliminated Wendy and Bull's advantages, exposing Abigail's problems and even Wendy's own problems once again.

That's why there are many requests in the Wendy skill tree for items such as "better team spirit," "player tags," "corrections to enemies that Abigail cannot attack like Lurking Nightmare," "rich potions," "rich Pipspook," and so on.Because these are all problems that Wendy's character has always had, and because the skill tree has also solved many other characters' inability to keep up with version issues.So the purpose of Wendy's skill tree should be to keep it up with the version, rather than focusing too much on whether it will be strong.

Everyone should know that Armored Bearer is currently the strongest enemy during the Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift era. Before Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift, the benchmark was just Bearer, an ordinary seasonal boss, but should the current skill tree only retain its performance as' just enough 'as it is now?

If we think now that we only need to use a temporary skill tree to continue addressing Abigail and Wendy's issues, what about in the future?What if there is a Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift stage that benchmarks against Dragonfly or even Celestial Champion?

Klei's adjustments outside of the test server have always been unpopular, and the dissatisfaction of Wilson and Wigford skill trees, as well as the bug in the underground stone shrimp (yes, the official server has not been fixed for 3 months), has not received a satisfactory response so far, even though some players have been speaking out.This is also the last thing that players who spoke up for Wendy during this test server want to see again. We have accumulated dissatisfaction with Wilson, Wigford, and various malicious bugs, and we no longer want to add weight to this dissatisfaction.

你的观点非常具备逻辑性，我对此表示认同。 同时我也将补充一个可能被大多数玩家都遗忘的历史遗留问题。 早在DST还未发布的时候，也就是DS时期，阿比盖尔就已经是一个600血量的单位。 而到了DST时期，阿比盖尔仍然是一个600血量的单位。是的，这看上去好像不奇怪，但事实上是DST的全部非弱小单位，其血量都变成了之前的两倍甚至更多。 在DS时期，最多血量的敌人可能也只有4000点。但在DST时期，任何一个季节boss的血量都能达4000-6000点。而像Dragonfly等高级boss，他们甚至有着2750→27500的血量变动。  大家都知道，阿比盖尔的ai水平是很笨拙的。在DS时期，因为数值环境的平衡，让阿比盖尔的ai问题并不严重。但到了DST时期就截然不同了，阿比盖尔的ai与其不与环境匹配的600血上限，在DST里明显是很勉强的。只是因为玩家的技术和环境的水平还在忍受范围内，所以这个问题也就不了了之了。 而随着环境变化，阿比盖尔的颓势在日益明显。而科雷也推出了温蒂的第一次重做，当时虽然在测试服也引起了轰然大波，不过结局还算是勉强接受，这让阿比盖尔的问题通过指令略有改善，但依旧具有很多未解决的矛盾（如阿比盖尔ai和600血上限），并创造了新的矛盾（如Pipspook任务的无聊和灵药系统的臃肿、低效），只是温蒂和牛组合的光彩掩盖了这个问题。 （补充:很多人可能忘记了，以前的温蒂只需要准备很多的阿比盖尔之花和回复精神的食物，就可以一直召唤满血量的阿比盖尔，所以我很反感很多人认为“Spectral Cure-All”是解决问题的想法。相反，我认为这只是一种对阿比盖尔之花不共享cd的弥补，而不是什么奖励）  而现在我们来到了技能树与Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift的版本。拥有击飞和各种新机制的敌人还有更夸张的Lurking Nightmare，让温蒂和牛的优势荡然无存，这就使得阿比盖尔的问题、甚至温蒂自己的问题，通通重新暴露了出来。 这也就是为什么，在温蒂技能树里有很多人要求提供诸如“更好的团队精神”、“玩家标签”、“对Lurking Nightmare等阿比盖尔不能攻击的敌人的补正”、“丰富灵药”、“丰富Pipspook”等要求的出现。 因为这些都是温蒂这个角色一直都存在的问题，更因为技能树同时也为其他很多角色解决了的他们跟不上版本问题。  所以温蒂技能树的目的应该是让其“跟上版本”，而不是过于着重的把注意力放在“这会不会很强”。  所有人都应该知道，现在Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift时期最强的敌人Armored Bearger。在Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift之前对标的只不过是Bearger，一个再普通不过的季节boss，而现在的技能树对其的表现应该只是保留像现在这样的“刚好够”吗？ 如果现在就认为只需要用治标不治本的技能树来继续敷衍阿比盖尔和温蒂的问题，那再往后呢？如果有对标Dragonfly，甚至对标Celestial Champion的Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift阶段呢？  科雷对测试服以外的调整一直是不得人心的，威尔逊和薇格弗德技能树的不满，甚至是地下石虾的bug（是的，正式服已经3个月没有修理了），至今为止都得不到满意的回应，即便有玩家一直在发声。 这也是这次测试服期间为温蒂发声的玩家最不想重新看见的，我们已经累积了威尔逊和薇格弗德还有各种恶性bug的不满，已经不想继续给这份不满加砝码了。

[Lee lol]

8 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

Your viewpoint is very logical, and I agree with it.

At the same time, I will also add a historical legacy issue that may be forgotten by most players.

 

Even before DST was released, during the DS era, Abigail was already a 600 HP unit.During the DST period, Abigail remained a unit of 600 HP. Yes, it may not seem strange, but in fact, all non weak units of DST have doubled or even more health than before.

During the DS era, the enemy with the highest health may only have 4000 points. But during DST, the boss's health can reach 4000-6000 points in any season. And advanced bosses like Dragonfly even have a health fluctuation of 2750 to 27500.

Everyone knows that Abigail's AI level is quite clumsy. During the DS era, due to the balance of the numerical environment, Abigail's AI problem was not severe.

But during the DST period, things were completely different. Abigail's AI and its environment incompatible 600 HP limit were clearly struggling in DST.

Just because the player's skills and the level of the environment are still within tolerance, this issue will not be resolved.As the environment changes, Abigail's decline is becoming increasingly apparent. And Corre also launched Wendy's first remake, which caused a sensation in the test suit at the time, but the ending was reluctantly accepted. This allowed Abigail's problem to be slightly improved through instructions, but still had many unresolved contradictions (such as Abigail's AI and 600 HP limit), and created new contradictions (such as the boredom of Pipspook missions and the bloated and inefficient elixir system), but the brilliance of Wendy and Bull's combination overshadowed this problem.(Addendum: Many people may have forgotten that in the past, Wendy only needed to prepare a lot of Abigail flowers and food to restore her spirit, and could constantly summon Abigail with full health.

Therefore, I am very disgusted with the idea that "Spectral Cure All" is a solution to the problem. On the contrary, I think it is just a compensation for Abigail flowers not sharing CDs, rather than a reward.)

And now we have come to the versions of Skill Tree and Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift. The enemies with flying attacks and various new mechanisms, as well as the even more exaggerated Lurking Nightmare, have completely eliminated Wendy and Bull's advantages, exposing Abigail's problems and even Wendy's own problems once again.

That's why there are many requests in the Wendy skill tree for items such as "better team spirit," "player tags," "corrections to enemies that Abigail cannot attack like Lurking Nightmare," "rich potions," "rich Pipspook," and so on.Because these are all problems that Wendy's character has always had, and because the skill tree has also solved many other characters' inability to keep up with version issues.So the purpose of Wendy's skill tree should be to keep it up with the version, rather than focusing too much on whether it will be strong.

Everyone should know that Armored Bearer is currently the strongest enemy during the Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift era. Before Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift, the benchmark was just Bearer, an ordinary seasonal boss, but should the current skill tree only retain its performance as' just enough 'as it is now?

If we think now that we only need to use a temporary skill tree to continue addressing Abigail and Wendy's issues, what about in the future?What if there is a Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift stage that benchmarks against Dragonfly or even Celestial Champion?

Klei's adjustments outside of the test server have always been unpopular, and the dissatisfaction of Wilson and Wigford skill trees, as well as the bug in the underground stone shrimp (yes, the official server has not been fixed for 3 months), has not received a satisfactory response so far, even though some players have been speaking out.This is also the last thing that players who spoke up for Wendy during this test server want to see again. We have accumulated dissatisfaction with Wilson, Wigford, and various malicious bugs, and we no longer want to add weight to this dissatisfaction.

你的观点非常具备逻辑性，我对此表示认同。 同时我也将补充一个可能被大多数玩家都遗忘的历史遗留问题。 早在DST还未发布的时候，也就是DS时期，阿比盖尔就已经是一个600血量的单位。 而到了DST时期，阿比盖尔仍然是一个600血量的单位。是的，这看上去好像不奇怪，但事实上是DST的全部非弱小单位，其血量都变成了之前的两倍甚至更多。 在DS时期，最多血量的敌人可能也只有4000点。但在DST时期，任何一个季节boss的血量都能达4000-6000点。而像Dragonfly等高级boss，他们甚至有着2750→27500的血量变动。  大家都知道，阿比盖尔的ai水平是很笨拙的。在DS时期，因为数值环境的平衡，让阿比盖尔的ai问题并不严重。但到了DST时期就截然不同了，阿比盖尔的ai与其不与环境匹配的600血上限，在DST里明显是很勉强的。只是因为玩家的技术和环境的水平还在忍受范围内，所以这个问题也就不了了之了。 而随着环境变化，阿比盖尔的颓势在日益明显。而科雷也推出了温蒂的第一次重做，当时虽然在测试服也引起了轰然大波，不过结局还算是勉强接受，这让阿比盖尔的问题通过指令略有改善，但依旧具有很多未解决的矛盾（如阿比盖尔ai和600血上限），并创造了新的矛盾（如Pipspook任务的无聊和灵药系统的臃肿、低效），只是温蒂和牛组合的光彩掩盖了这个问题。 （补充:很多人可能忘记了，以前的温蒂只需要准备很多的阿比盖尔之花和回复精神的食物，就可以一直召唤满血量的阿比盖尔，所以我很反感很多人认为“Spectral Cure-All”是解决问题的想法。相反，我认为这只是一种对阿比盖尔之花不共享cd的弥补，而不是什么奖励）  而现在我们来到了技能树与Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift的版本。拥有击飞和各种新机制的敌人还有更夸张的Lurking Nightmare，让温蒂和牛的优势荡然无存，这就使得阿比盖尔的问题、甚至温蒂自己的问题，通通重新暴露了出来。 这也就是为什么，在温蒂技能树里有很多人要求提供诸如“更好的团队精神”、“玩家标签”、“对Lurking Nightmare等阿比盖尔不能攻击的敌人的补正”、“丰富灵药”、“丰富Pipspook”等要求的出现。 因为这些都是温蒂这个角色一直都存在的问题，更因为技能树同时也为其他很多角色解决了的他们跟不上版本问题。  所以温蒂技能树的目的应该是让其“跟上版本”，而不是过于着重的把注意力放在“这会不会很强”。  所有人都应该知道，现在Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift时期最强的敌人Armored Bearger。在Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift之前对标的只不过是Bearger，一个再普通不过的季节boss，而现在的技能树对其的表现应该只是保留像现在这样的“刚好够”吗？ 如果现在就认为只需要用治标不治本的技能树来继续敷衍阿比盖尔和温蒂的问题，那再往后呢？如果有对标Dragonfly，甚至对标Celestial Champion的Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift阶段呢？  科雷对测试服以外的调整一直是不得人心的，威尔逊和薇格弗德技能树的不满，甚至是地下石虾的bug（是的，正式服已经3个月没有修理了），至今为止都得不到满意的回应，即便有玩家一直在发声。 这也是这次测试服期间为温蒂发声的玩家最不想重新看见的，我们已经累积了威尔逊和薇格弗德还有各种恶性bug的不满，已经不想继续给这份不满加砝码了。

A very comprehensive comment! Mentioned the difficulties faced by Wendy and Abigail since DS to DST. I really hope Kelei can see this.

[RiceMilk]

10 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

The issue is that the buff Wendy gets on a beefalo isn't the same as the buff her teammates get on a beefalo. It's 1.55x for Wendy and 1.15x for anyone else. Cursed vexation brings it above 2.1x, IIRC.

Beefalo are equally difficult to manage for everyone, but only Wendy gets the crazy damage boost. And that's on top of the damage Abigail is already dealing.

So what is the gain Wes achieved on Beeflo? Is obtaining more or less gain a suitable reason to modify the rules?

[lio516]

There are so many people who use Wendy to feel miserable in bosses, but some people keep saying aoe, spider, bee, God, it's not all about the game

[Well-met]

fun fact abigail does not have a "player tag", it's a misconception that's somehow become popular lingo.

the real "player tag" is, unsurprisingly, used on actual players.

Abigail is a mob and she was exempted from bosses' double damage against mobs that's all

[Debruh]

On 12/16/2024 at 6:28 PM, RiceMilk said:

Cows are often Wendy's good partners. But the cow was targeted too severely by the new monster. The result of falling is often devastating, whether it frees the boss from hate or reload the day, its all means the battle begins again. I can't understand why we have to do this. In my opinion, cows are not very strong, and it's easier and cheaper for combat characters to defeat enemies on their own.

 

If only this problem could be solved, regardless of whether the solution comes from Wendy's skill tree or not. Taking care of both the cow and Abigail at the same time is a nightmare experience, and Wendy players should not be deprived of the fun on the cow.

Check my post here, which points out how the knockback problem was solved

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/162577-knockback-problems-countered-by-mourning-glory-ii/

[Bumber64]

On 12/17/2024 at 6:14 AM, RiceMilk said:

So what is the gain Wes achieved on Beeflo? Is obtaining more or less gain a suitable reason to modify the rules?

It's 1.1x for beefalo Wes (1.3x cursed vexation). Off the beefalo he's 0.83x (0.98x cursed).

Beefalo Wolfgang is the same at 1.1x (1.3x), which is a downgrade for him. Off the beefalo is 2.2x (2.6x).

Wilson has the same 1.1x (1.3x) numbers whether he's on a beefalo or not. (You can also shave Wilson like a beefalo. Coincidence?)

Beefalo Wendy is 1.54x (2.08x). Off the beefalo is 1.16x (1.56x). Her numbers come from 1.1*1.4 (1.3*1.6 cursed), and are multiplied by 0.75 without beefalo.

We should logically expect beefalo numbers to be 1.1x (1.3x) to match everyone else. That means she would actually be better off not using the beefalo with Abi still alive.

[cyjs]

I’m studying Hertz and trying to sell myself. Can you give me some advice?

[blue fat]

u r right.Let's move past this part and discuss how to enhance Abigail's survivability and come up with more interesting ways to play.

[RiceMilk]

17 hours ago, Debruh said:

Check my post here, which points out how the knockback problem was solved

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/162577-knockback-problems-countered-by-mourning-glory-ii/

The problem of knocking back is indeed crucial. You have proposed an effective solution that would greatly improve the experience without being knocked back.

9 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

I think it's 1.15x for beefalo Wes (1.54x cursed vexation). Off the beefalo he's 0.86x (1.15x cursed).

Beefalo Wolfgang is the same at 1.15x (1.54x cursed), which is a downgrade for him. Off the beefalo is 2.3x (3.08x cursed). (Which basically makes a Wolfgang and a Wendy as good as two Wolfgangs, no beefalo needed.)

Wilson has the same 1.15x (1.54x cursed) numbers whether he's on a beefalo or not. (You can also shave Wilson like a beefalo. Coincidence?) Wendy is probably intended to have these same numbers, but her special multiplier doesn't check if she's on a beefalo and overcompensates.

I understand what you mean. If you compare Wendy's 0.75 magnification with the Beeflao after being added, there will indeed be a significant difference. I have three opinions on this matter:

 

1. If Abigail had survived, Wendy would have had a multiplier of over 1.

2. The basic attack power of any character using Beeflao is the same, as Beeflao is attacking rather than the character.

3. Both Beeflao and Abigail require careful care in the current battle, as they are both unstable.

 

[Bumber64]

1 hour ago, RiceMilk said:

I understand what you mean. If you compare Wendy's 0.75 magnification with the Beeflao after being added, there will indeed be a significant difference. I have three opinions on this matter:

Doesn't change your point here, but my earlier numbers were incorrect so I've updated them. Non-Wendy numbers are lower than I expected.

How it works is that non-Wendy players are multiplied by 1.1 (1.3 cursed). Wendy gets a second multiplier of 1.4 (1.6 cursed), which is where her weird numbers come from. (Example: 1.1*1.4*0.75 = 1.54*0.75 = 1.155)

1 hour ago, RiceMilk said:

1. If Abigail had survived, Wendy would have had a multiplier of over 1.
2. The basic attack power of any character using Beeflao is the same, as Beeflao is attacking rather than the character.
3. Both Beeflao and Abigail require careful care in the current battle, as they are both unstable.

And what can be understood from these points is that the reward for caring for a beefalo isn't actually a damage multiplier, but survivability. They will boost 0.75x (Wes or alone Wendy) up to 1.0x, but will nerf you if your natural multiplier is above 1.0x (Wigfrid or Wolfgang).

Treating beefalo Wendy as non-Wendy would actually put her in the nerf category while Abi is alive, because a non-Wendy doesn't get the extra bonus. If we want to fix beefalo damage but not nerf her in any situation, we'd have to multiply vex damage by 0.75x whenever a Wendy beefalo hits a vexed target, which is an additional check besides if the attacker is a Wendy or not.

[Kya2u]

I couldn't agree more with you that arguments on forums feel uncomfortable and become full of conflict instead of rational discussion