Blessed Sisturn III is one of my biggests disappointments with Klei.

[layangan putus]

10 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Player tag only affects boss damage. Beginners wouldn't be affected.

The question wasn't which is less efficient. 99% damage reduction would be more efficient than the player tag. The question was whether it was needed. It's clearly not, you're able to accomplish all the same things with the potions.

I said giant obstacle, you think they won't try facing giants after reading Scrapbook about giants? But most beginners don't really interact with bosses yet, they'd prefer to make the giants fighting another mobs. If they wanna go 99% damage reduction so be it, why should I care? I am fine with that, challenge in DST is always about figuring something out not executing something.

 

By your logic, hundred of axes are enough to beat the game but is it fun? Maybe hundreds

[Xplan]

Just now, Dingle said:

Steorra used it 7 hours ago. Lardee used it 40 minutes ago.

Also he offered to define it, in his words. He's not refusing to.

okay, where can i read his defination.

[Lardee]

4 minutes ago, DST enjoyer said:

I said giant obstacle, you think they won't try facing giants after reading Scrapbook about giants? But most beginners don't really interact with bosses yet, they'd prefer to make the giants fighting another mobs.

 

By your logic, hundred of axes are enough to beat the game but is it fun? Maybe hundreds

Right, so beginners wouldn't be fighting other bosses.

No, by my logic, you shouldn't remove a character's major downside in order to fix a problem that has already been solved multiple times.

5 minutes ago, Xplan said:

okay, where can i read his defination.

How old are you?

[Xplan]

Just now, Lardee said:

How old are you?

7 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

how old are you i must wonder if you consider someones age if you dont aggree with someone elses oppinion? because that is in fact a very silly thing from you

[Lardee]

Just now, Xplan said:

 

It's not about your opinions. It's more about your ability to comprehend what is being said.

[Xplan]

do i need to do an explanation of crticism, jokes or satire.

then "how old are u?"

[layangan putus]

28 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Right, so beginners wouldn't be fighting other bosses.

No, by my logic, you shouldn't remove a character's major downside in order to fix a problem that has already been solved multiple times.

General efficiency needed for team players because they no longer care about challenge of a fight since they've done it tenth to hundred times over, but this would make issue for other type of players.

 

Wow you must have been never stuck in something always using meta knowledge, I say as "last resort" sort of hope and reasonable goal if they want to defeat giants threatening them by reading Blessed Sisturn III - Please re-read the whole statement.

 

What is downside for? More suffering? Downside is part of the DST puzzle for players to solve and player tag exists to offer more solutions with low stakes, you must be so delusional to think people should practice in another world and use console command to create a simulation so they can finally solve the combat puzzles. Like I said somewhere else, a game will always be bad if heavily relied on meta knowledge with unreasonable high stakes. Normal person would just play and learn by doing it without necessarily need to read thousand pages of wiki / google-gaming / watching guides.

[Lardee]

6 minutes ago, DST enjoyer said:

General efficiency needed for team players because they no longer care about challenge of a fight since they've done it tenth to hundred times over, but this would make issue for other type of players.

And they have that option. It's called skill and ganging up on the boss. The player tag is not needed.

 

6 minutes ago, DST enjoyer said:

Wow you must have been never stuck in something always using meta knowledge, I say as "last resort" sort of hope and reasonable goal if they want to defeat giants threatening them by reading Blessed Sisturn III - Please re-read the whole statement.

I have no idea what this even means.

 

6 minutes ago, DST enjoyer said:

What is downside for? More suffering? Downside is part of the DST puzzle for players to solve and player tag exists to offer more solutions with low stakes, you must be so delusional to think people should practice in another world and use console command to create a simulation so they can finally solve the combat puzzles. Like I said somewhere else, a game will always be bad if heavily relied on meta knowledge with high stakes. Normal person would just play and learn by doing it without necessarily need to read thousand pages of wiki / google-gaming / watching guides.

The player tag removes any puzzle for the player to solve. That's the problem. It lets you ignore Abigail and play Wendy the same way you'd play Wilson or Wolfgang.

For the 1,000,000th time, the game already has low skill options: Spectral Cure All and Ghastly Experience and Gestalt Abigail.  You're just bringing up points that have already been debunked. Sorry, DST has never been a game where you can learn to beat a complex raid boss without research, prep and practice and the player tag wouldn't change that anymore than bringing potions.

[layangan putus]

2 minutes ago, Lardee said:

And they have that option. It's called skill and ganging up on the boss. The player tag is not needed.

I've explained there is specific situation which happens a lot if you are playing together with delay.

 

3 minutes ago, Lardee said:

The player tag removes any puzzle for the player to solve. That's the problem. It lets you ignore Abigail and play Wendy the same way you'd play Wilson or Wolfgang.

For the 1,000,000th time, the game already has low skill options: Spectral Cure All and Ghastly Experience and Gestalt Abigail.  You're just bringing up points that have already been debunked. Sorry, DST has never been a game where you can learn to beat a complex raid boss without research, prep and practice and the player tag wouldn't change that anymore than bringing potions.

Yes, some people don't wanna bother with puzzle with high stakes and also solving combat puzzles using Wilson's method would make some people start to finally learn the intended way. Trust me, I'd been there - You always wanna more methods in your arsenal.

Stacking Spectral Cure All and Ghastly Experience is time consuming to prepare and not an effective solution when used in combat even if it has low stakes. I've explained it already so whatever. I still believe some genius out there can beat DST without touching any meta knowledge and hopefully they can post a video about it. No wonder the game is in low cycle after years passed and we have massive complaints coming from this root of "unintuitive way to play game". This is not even Mythic+ WoW raid level of difficulty and even then they have journal in-game to learn about boss mechanics.

[SilverSpoon]

The reason forum people blamed "Certain Wendy players" because they insulted Klei, but now I think we must say Sorry to "Certain Wendy players".

[Lardee]

2 minutes ago, DST enjoyer said:

I've explained there is specific situation which happens a lot if you are playing together with delay.

Yes, and this situation can be overcome with skill, ganging up on bosses or potions.

 

2 minutes ago, DST enjoyer said:

Yes, some people don't wanna bother with puzzle with high stakes and also solving combat puzzles using Wilson's method would make some people start to finally learn the intended way. Trust me, I'd been there - You always wanna more methods in your arsenal.

Then those people have the option of using potions if they are too lazy to solve the puzzle.

2 minutes ago, DST enjoyer said:

Stacking Spectral Cure All and Ghastly Experience is time consuming to prepare and not an effective solution when used in combat even if it has low stakes. I've explained it already so whatever. I still believe some genius out there can beat DST without touching any meta knowledge and hopefully they can post a video about it. No wonder the game is in low cycle after years passed and we have massive complaints coming from this root of "unintuitive way to play game". This is not even Mythic+ WoW raid level of difficulty and even then they have journal in-game to learn about boss mechanics.

Yeah, if you don't want to learn how to play a character, you're going to have to spend more time in order to do some things. No, Spectral Cure All is an effective solution in low stakes combat and high stakes combat. 

DST has never been a game where one person can spawn in without knowledge and beat everything and even then, the potions solve this issue.

[layangan putus]

5 minutes ago, Lardee said:

the potions solve this issue.

The knowledge required solves the issue. I could imagine for some people, the scenario would be fighting some giants by rile up, applying Cure-All, Abi dies, re-summoning, applying Ghastly Exp, then applying Cure-All, repeat, maybe small window to do something else. So similar to Gestalt Abi situation but worse, is that effective solution to promote Wendy unique playstyle more than Abi player tag?

[Lardee]

11 minutes ago, DST enjoyer said:

The knowledge required solves the issue. I could imagine for some people, the scenario would be fighting some giants by rile up, applying Cure-All, Abi dies, re-summoning, applying Ghastly Exp, then applying Cure-All, repeat, maybe small window to do something else. So similar to Gestalt Abi situation but worse, is that effective solution to promote Wendy unique playstyle more than Abi player tag?

The question isn't whether it's more effective. Giving Abigail 99% armor would be even more effective than the player tag. What matters is that it's a solution. Actually even that doesn't matter considering Klei never designed their game this way.

[layangan putus]

6 minutes ago, Lardee said:

The question isn't whether it's more effective. Giving Abigail 99% armor would be even more effective than the player tag. What matters is that it's a solution. Actually even that doesn't matter considering Klei never designed their game this way.

I can't wait for 2025 Roadmap to understand them better also do your best being the twins' warrior. I'll see you around.

[DegenerateFurry]

5 hours ago, Picklesaurus said:

I just wanted an easier time helping Abigail dodge attacks and position while i'm fighting by her side which I though was being worked on and was going to be the purpose of Gestalt Abigail and Team Spirit skills. Instead of that Klei changes course and gives me a tanky abomination that is capable of being healed for more than some bosses can deal damage, it is like having a pet Weremoose that has acess to inventory healing as my ghost sister, why would you do that? What is the point of Gestalt Abigail and Team Spirit skills now? Should I just accept that they were cast asside and that the easiest route has been taken by turning all Abi forms into tanky monstrosities? 

I have never been so disappointed with Klei as I am by the way they are managing this Beta.

That is what Team Spirit is for, though. Just use those perks instead of Blessed Sisturn III if you don't like Blessed Sisturn III.

[thesooz9000]

29 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

That is what Team Spirit is for, though. Just use those perks instead of Blessed Sisturn III if you don't like Blessed Sisturn III.

Yea, but there is no point in using team spirit when the best strategy is just to let abigail tank the boss.

[Nikki Darks]

Just now, Nikki Darks said:

A take I wanted to share on "Just don't use it" argument. 

 

[Nikki Darks]

Just now, Fitzee said:

Let me guess: this is something you will copy-paste from now on when someone uses the "don't like it, don't use it" philosophy?

No... That's spamming.

[thesooz9000]

I think we've already discussed what we want for the future of the blessed sisturn III, from all sides, now we just wait and see what klei does.

[Nikki Darks]

Just now, thesooz9000 said:

I think we've already discussed what we want for the future of the blessed sisturn III, from all sides, now we just wait and see what klei does.

Very much this. I'm happy either way.

Unless Abigail starts hitting shadow creatures, then I'm bringing out the coin sock. This is a joke, I am not gonna inflict harm on the Klei devs. 

[DegenerateFurry]

27 minutes ago, Nikki Darks said:

A take I wanted to share on "Just don't use it" argument. 

 

It isn't wrong to say that it's the developer's fault that we need to use a "don't like it, don't use it" argument. However, trying to apply Mauler's argument in the context of Don't Starve Together fails to acknowledge the fact that this is a game played by people with wildly varying skill levels and meant to be enjoyed by people with wildly varying skill levels, and as a result, the developers have to choose: do they give us easy options for dealing with challenges (Wolfgang's existence, Blessed Sisturn III, tooth traps versus hound waves as opposed to just fighting them yourself, letting treeguards kill Bearger for you, etc) that we can choose not to use, or do they nerf the challenges and buff the characters to the point that even casual players can experience all of the game?

It's a very awkward position they've found themselves in, trying to cater to a playerbase that seems split between people who struggle with even mechanically simple bosses like Deerclops and players who can't imagine what playing the game without being able to consistently animation cancel is like, with plenty somewhere in the middle.

There is literally no way the game can be designed to make all of these groups feel it's both fair and challenging, and with how much distaste the playerbase seems to have for putting difficulty-related tweaks into the world creation settings (something I've suggested and has been rejected pretty consistently), it seems like even just adding in standard difficulty brackets (easy, normal, hard, expert) wouldn't be an accepted solution.

So, what we're left with are two real choices that Klei has. One of them is way easier than the other and wouldn't require a major overhaul of the earlier portions of the game: just giving players optional things they can use that help them deal with the challenges the game throws at them more easily. It's something they already do (as I mentioned), so why not do it?

The other option is making the game actually teach the players how to master its combat loop (I don't count animation cancelling since it's not necessary and just skews your sense of how difficult things are). That would be a major undertaking and would probably involve lots of changes (possibly ones that could be toggled off in settings) to give more feedback to new players when they're learning to fight, like attack range indicators, or health bars on enemies so they know how much damage they're actually doing (both of which helped me get to the point that I can consistently kill all of the bosses solo, even without using them nowadays). All of that would be fervently opposed by the "but muh uncompromising wilderness survival game" crowd, though.

Klei is between a rock and a hard place. Players want updates. They want stuff that addresses some of the problems characters have in their gameplay, like how they made the weremoose able to control its charges. Less experienced players want to be able to interact with more of the game's content, which has become increasingly combat-adjacent. However, they can't just make the game easier because that'd annoy the more dedicated fans, and they can't make the game harder because that'd annoy the casual fans and make it even harder to learn than it already is. 

They clearly want to help new players learn the game (that's the purpose of the scrapbook), but I feel like they're (justifiably) afraid of community reactions to the things that'd actually be necessary to help newbies learn combat, and it's actively hurting the game at this point. So, instead, we're stuck with a compromise. 

TL;DR, the real problem isn't "don't like it, don't use it" mechanics, it's the reason why "don't like it, don't use it" mechanics even need to exist in the first place (the game is too hard to learn and Klei can't make it easier to learn without risking angering the fanbase). 

[SilverSpoon]

16 minutes ago, Nikki Darks said:

A take I wanted to share on "Just don't use it" argument. 

Quote

A mechanic in a game is often too overpowered, trivializing major challenges in the game and robbing the player of the catharsis and skill gain in learning to overcome that challenge. The player may object to it, as this mechanic makes other aspects of the game either pointless or redundant, funneling the player into only using this overpowered mechanic.

I want you to know that all game players, to varying degrees, don't want to challenge, don't want to gain skills, don't want to make an effort, don't want to practice, don't want to be stressed, don't want to waste time, don't want to fail, and don't get catharsis from such things. 
No matter how hardcore a person is, I don't think they would enjoy the challenge of drinking water from a glass with chopsticks, and I don't think they would enjoy killing a dragon fly with only fishing rod.
The important thing is that there are as many "degrees" as there are people. To dismiss it as a just player and say "you don't deserve to play this game" or "this is too OP and will ruin the game, so don't implement it even if other people want it" is equivalent to disrupting the business of that game.

[thesooz9000]

9 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

There is literally no way the game can be designed to make all of these groups feel it's both fair and challenging, and with how much distaste the playerbase seems to have for putting difficulty-related tweaks into the world creation settings (something I've suggested and has been rejected pretty consistently)

This is the one thing that terraria triumphs in over dst, the difficulty options settings in world creation for the game (normal, expert, master) are perfect for all players wish we had something like that for dst, but it seems like something that would be a huge endeavor.

[Debruh]

12 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

I want you to know that all game players, to varying degrees, don't want to challenge, don't want to gain skills, don't want to make an effort, don't want to practice, don't want to be stressed, don't want to waste time, don't want to fail

This is just flat out wrong. Not just in DST but in a lotbof video games

[DegenerateFurry]

8 minutes ago, thesooz9000 said:

This is the one thing that terraria triumphs in over dst, the difficulty options settings in world creation for the game (normal, expert, master) are perfect for all players wish we had something like that for dst, but it seems like something that would be a huge endeavor.

Yeah, I agree. It'd be great if we could just have difficulty options (especially if they change boss behaviors like Terraria's expert mode does). There's people who consistently reject it and say it's not a real solution or whatever when I suggest it here on this forum, though.