Blessed Sisturn III is Way too Strong

[SilverSpoon]

To all big fan of "Blessed Sisturn III is OP" videos: The GigaChad Canadian Lumberjack's "Treeguard Feller II" can not just tank but also kill with "no effort". Just to be on the safe side, I also recorded proof video, but please don't be so dogged as to make me edit it.

 

[WenericMember]

4 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

To all big fan of "Blessed Sisturn III is OP" videos: The GigaChad Canadian Lumberjack's "Treeguard Feller II" can not just tank but also kill with "no effort". Just to be on the safe side, I also recorded proof video, but please don't be so dogged as to make me edit it.

 

"Bad game design exists so we should allow more bad game design"

Besides. Treeguard idol is an unintended side effect, the intention of the skill is to get inf living logs - treeguards insta aggro on you.

Bs3 is designed to make Abby bulkier, so it should be balanced around making her the right level of bulky.

[Pig Princess]

1 hour ago, YuRinshue said:

you read the comments section

I can't read comment section because I don't know chineese at all. I don't know a single character, and even though I heared that chineese has different rules for constructing sentences than english (which affects machine translation in negative way), I don't even know how exactly they differ. I found a video by going to the links posted on forums and google-translating from chineese to english names of popular videos, then I tried to figure if they contain characters that correspond to "beta test", "don't starve together", and added the following google-translated key words from english to chineese: "crystal deer" and "armored bear" (seems like I assumed correctly that chineese doesn't have a way to say "deerclops" or "bearger", and most likely uses words "deer" and "bear"). I also clicked on recommendations since by the look of website I could reasonably assume what is this section even if I don't understant any text. 

I didn't try to find deliberately some proof that sisturn 3 is overpowered. I just practiced today myself and came up with the strategy to fight Armored Bearger without player tag on Abigail and without healing (only cheap equipment and commands). After I found it on my own, I decided that it's a good idea to see what other people came up with, and since I didn't find anything on youtube, I decided to try bilibili. I mainly wanted to find something creative for Crystal Deerclops, but found this as well. I may not know chineese, but I'm curious and not stupid enough to search on unfamiliar language. I'm too lazy to try and translate every comment though. 

Anyway, I didn't post it to prove or disprove something. I just thought that it would be interesting to see people's opinions and I gave my own. I don't deny that author of the video at the very least fought well as Wilson, it's certainly a great level of skill. What upsets me is that fight is so forgiving when it comes to Abigail that one can afford to make so many mistakes if not literally ignore her, and believe me I know what I'm writing about. When I practiced there were so many cases where bearger just smacked me and Abigail to death, but I kept practicing and eventually won. I will continue to practice, as I believe my difficulties to reproduce successful fights every time are because of lack of practice.

We may disagree on what is fun or acceptable ratio of effort-gain, but I just want to see people's opinions. I actually don't know if I'm being elitist here without noticing because I'm veteran and just fought harder fight in cleaner way, or it's really that simple to keep Abigail alive now. After all I had a lot of practice as Wendy without Abigail (I played her as Wes in this fight before beta), so I was generally familiar with attack pattern of Armored Bearger. And I didn't notice much attempts to manage Abigail, or at least I can't say if the moment where Abigailed dashed and didn't receive damage due to invulnerability frames was luck or deliberate move that just didn't succeed evey time. I have no idea why in other part of the video bearger did butt attack even though he was aggroed on Abigail who was not behind him. There couldn't be escape command that I didn't notice because "attack at" command was executed right after that moment.

Also why does it matter that Wendy did the fight 20 seconds earlier than Wilson? In my opinion as long as fight is not impractically long or resource-consuming when one tries to execute character-specific strategy, it's uniqueness is the most relevant metric, isn't it? 

[YuRinshue]

1 hour ago, aidankocherhans said:

Please watch the video on the post again, then tell me she doesn't last more than twice as long with the tag

Regardless of the math, results are results 

Never mind, I'll just test it myself. There's no need for lazy people to try to prove their point with things beyond their mouths. You guys probably only have one person in a hundred miles to open the test server and experience the real situation, but you can only comment on other people's videos. This is already to the point where I find it incredibly funny.
I find it extremely sad that each and every one of you enjoys discussing with double standards. The more I feel sad that you long for Abigail, who can be shattered by an armored bear in just 5 seconds.
I can give Bernie skill points that do not affect the use of Willow Fire Magic at all! Can withstand the survival ability of Armored Bear for 40 seconds and defeat 645 health points without any intervention from me, as long as I let Armored Bear's hatred go for 1 second without Bernie! On the body, this time can reach 50 seconds. This means that as long as I use less than 3 sewing bags, I can defeat the Moon Bear without doing anything, and people are still afraid of Abigail's optimization from dying by mistake to having a chance of survival. How sad.
A group of people are roaring loudly here because Abigail has alleviated her terminal illness compared to before, unaware that there have been many designs that are far more reasonable. It's really disgusting to me, a hypocritical double standard.

[WenericMember]

6 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

Never mind, I'll just test it myself. There's no need for lazy people to try to prove their point with things beyond their mouths. You guys probably only have one person in a hundred miles to open the test server and experience the real situation, but you can only comment on other people's videos. This is already to the point where I find it incredibly funny.
I find it extremely sad that each and every one of you enjoys discussing with double standards. The more I feel sad that you long for Abigail, who can be shattered by an armored bear in just 5 seconds.
I can give Bernie skill points that do not affect the use of Willow Fire Magic at all! Can withstand the survival ability of Armored Bear for 40 seconds and defeat 645 health points without any intervention from me, as long as I let Armored Bear's hatred go for 1 second without Bernie! On the body, this time can reach 50 seconds. This means that as long as I use less than 3 sewing bags, I can defeat the Moon Bear without doing anything, and people are still afraid of Abigail's optimization from dying by mistake to having a chance of survival. How sad.
A group of people are roaring loudly here because Abigail has alleviated her terminal illness compared to before, unaware that there have been many designs that are far more reasonable. It's really disgusting to me, a hypocritical double standard.

Yeah, because bernie also has abilities that let you precisely control

... oh wait

Theyre two different followers, with two different designs. 

If you want a follower that can survive and draw aggro, go bernie. If you want a summon that boosts damage greatly, does AOE and has mobility, go abigail. 

In her current state abby is a powercrept bernie, not abigail

 

[YuRinshue]

44 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

I can't read comment section because I don't know chineese at all. I don't know a single character, and even though I heared that chineese has different rules for constructing sentences than english (which affects machine translation in negative way), I don't even know how exactly they differ. I found a video by going to the links posted on forums and google-translating from chineese to english names of popular videos, then I tried to figure if they contain characters that correspond to "beta test", "don't starve together", and added the following google-translated key words from english to chineese: "crystal deer" and "armored bear" (seems like I assumed correctly that chineese doesn't have a way to say "deerclops" or "bearger", and most likely uses words "deer" and "bear"). I also clicked on recommendations since by the look of website I could reasonably assume what is this section even if I don't understant any text. 

I didn't try to find deliberately some proof that sisturn 3 is overpowered. I just practiced today myself and came up with the strategy to fight Armored Bearger without player tag on Abigail and without healing (only cheap equipment and commands). After I found it on my own, I decided that it's a good idea to see what other people came up with, and since I didn't find anything on youtube, I decided to try bilibili. I mainly wanted to find something creative for Crystal Deerclops, but found this as well. I may not know chineese, but I'm curious and not stupid enough to search on unfamiliar language. I'm too lazy to try and translate every comment though. 

Anyway, I didn't post it to prove or disprove something. I just thought that it would be interesting to see people's opinions and I gave my own. I don't deny that author of the video at the very least fought well as Wilson, it's certainly a great level of skill. What upsets me is that fight is so forgiving when it comes to Abigail that one can afford to make so many mistakes if not literally ignore her, and believe me I know what I'm writing about. When I practiced there were so many cases where bearger just smacked me and Abigail to death, but I kept practicing and eventually won. I will continue to practice, as I believe my difficulties to reproduce successful fights every time are because of lack of practice.

We may disagree on what is fun or acceptable ratio of effort-gain, but I just want to see people's opinions. I actually don't know if I'm being elitist here without noticing because I'm veteran and just fought harder fight in cleaner way, or it's really that simple to keep Abigail alive now. After all I had a lot of practice as Wendy without Abigail (I played her as Wes in this fight before beta), so I was generally familiar with attack pattern of Armored Bearger. And I didn't notice much attempts to manage Abigail, or at least I can't say if the moment where Abigailed dashed and didn't receive damage due to invulnerability trames was luck or deliberate move that just didn't seceed evey time. I have no idea why in other part of the video bearger did butt attack even though he was aggroed on Abigail who was not behind him. There couldn't be escape command that I didn't notice because "attack at" command was executed right after that moment.

Also why does it matter that Wendy did the fight 50 seconds earlier than Wilson? In my opinion as long as fight is not impractically long or resource-consuming when one tries to execute character-specific strategy, it's uniqueness is the most relevant metric, isn't it? 

It's okay now, I even have to apologize to you for my speculation. Although I disagree with your viewpoint, you are at least sincere and have your own genuine thoughts and actions. Unlike too many people here, they share your ideas only because they are hypocritical and have double standards, rather than genuinely willing to express their thoughts from the perspective of a Wendy player.
However, I still have to stick to my opinion because I am the recorder of this video. I am aware that if I want to not use player tags, the amount of operation I put in will not be proportional to my return, or in other words, it will exceed my tolerance for balancing between characters. Not to mention, if I am playing with friends, the delay will make it even more difficult for me to perform the same operation, which will only make me appear to be of no help to the team.
From another perspective, I can accept that she requires complex operations, but I don't want to end up with other characters, even if Wilson is not a combat oriented character, the results are easily achievable. This is not an honor for me because it thoroughly proves the character I love. She has lost all her unique strengths and only uses her because of my love. I don't know if you understand what I mean. You don't want your favorite character to be inferior to others in every aspect, at least they have their own strengths, even if they are small.
In summary, I hope the player tag is a reserved feature. If you are worried that it will make you feel bored, then I think you can assign the already limited skill points to other positions. After all, skill points are not enough to complete the entire skill tree. Consider it as an option for players with delays. That's all. Thank you for your positive response.

12 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Yeah, because bernie also has abilities that let you precisely control

... oh wait

Theyre two different followers, with two different designs. 

If you want a follower that can survive and draw aggro, go bernie. If you want a summon that boosts damage greatly, does AOE and has mobility, go abigail. 

In her current state abby is a powercrept bernie, not abigail

 

I am tired of this disgusting communication. If you insist that Abigail should be on par with Bernie, then you can provide a correction that allows Wendy to be on par with Willow. Instead of saying 'a small part of Vello's power is equivalent to a large part of Wendy's power' here, it just makes me feel bored.

[WenericMember]

7 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

It's okay now, I even have to apologize to you for my speculation. Although I disagree with your viewpoint, you are at least sincere and have your own genuine thoughts and actions. Unlike too many people here, they share your ideas only because they are hypocritical and have double standards, rather than genuinely willing to express their thoughts from the perspective of a Wendy player.
However, I still have to stick to my opinion because I am the recorder of this video. I am aware that if I want to not use player tags, the amount of operation I put in will not be proportional to my return, or in other words, it will exceed my tolerance for balancing between characters. Not to mention, if I am playing with friends, the delay will make it even more difficult for me to perform the same operation, which will only make me appear to be of no help to the team.
From another perspective, I can accept that she requires complex operations, but I don't want to end up with other characters, even if Wilson is not a combat oriented character, the results are easily achievable. This is not an honor for me because it thoroughly proves the character I love. She has lost all her unique strengths and only uses her because of my love. I don't know if you understand what I mean. You don't want your favorite character to be inferior to others in every aspect, at least they have their own strengths, even if they are small.
In summary, I hope the player tag is a reserved feature. If you are worried that it will make you feel bored, then I think you can assign the already limited skill points to other positions. After all, skill points are not enough to complete the entire skill tree. Consider it as an option for players with delays. That's all. Thank you for your positive response.

I am tired of this disgusting communication. If you insist that Abigail should be on par with Bernie, then you can provide a correction that allows Wendy to be on par with Willow. Instead of saying 'a small part of Vello's power is equivalent to a large part of Wendy's power' here, it just makes me feel bored.

Except Wendy now hac access to haubt, potion crafts, gravestones, further reduced sanity modifiers and other perks to round out her kit. Her kit is now more than "the girl with a ghost."

My issue isnt "Abby is as strong as bernie, if not moreso" its "Abby and bernie moved from having unique playstyles to the exact same one" you say you take issue with your favourite character being overshadowed, so surely you should want them to be more unique, not less.

[YuRinshue]

6 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Except Wendy now hac access to haubt, potion crafts, gravestones, further reduced sanity modifiers and other perks to round out her kit. Her kit is now more than "the girl with a ghost."

My issue isnt "Abby is as strong as bernie, if not moreso" its "Abby and bernie moved from having unique playstyles to the exact same one" you say you take issue with your favourite character being overshadowed, so surely you should want them to be more unique, not less.

I have never denied the significance of these items, but the fact is that these functions are designed to be too useless and cumbersome. If you have read the long posts I have written before, you will know how much content we consider excessively 'mediocre' and only requires minor modifications to make people feel 'more worthwhile'.
Why do so many people insist that Abigail needs to survive? Instead of Abigail needing more damage.
The main reason is that these new branches are too ineffective in expanding functionality and solving problems, to the extent that Abigail remains the vast majority of Wendy's power, and maintaining survival is Abigail's only need. Therefore, we are fighting for it instead of simply opposing it with 'too strong'.
No one likes to be deprived of their last piece of warm clothing in the cold winter.

[SilverSpoon]

1 hour ago, WenericMember said:

"Bad game design exists so we should allow more bad game design"

Nuh. Both Spectral Cure All spam and Treeguard Idol spam can be achieved by collecting a ton of resources so "well-efforted" victory, not "Bad game design". In addition, you can collect a ton of gunpowder to insta-kill.

1 hour ago, WenericMember said:

Besides. Treeguard idol is an unintended side effect, the intention of the skill is to get inf living logs - treeguards insta aggro on you.

Bs3 is designed to make Abby bulkier, so it should be balanced around making her the right level of bulky.

Objection! I searched for "Treeguard Idol" on Youtube and 6 of the top 7 results were videos of defeating bosses by Treeguard. I don't agree with "the intention of the skill is to get inf living logs".

[WenericMember]

24 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

I have never denied the significance of these items, but the fact is that these functions are designed to be too useless and cumbersome. If you have read the long posts I have written before, you will know how much content we consider excessively 'mediocre' and only requires minor modifications to make people feel 'more worthwhile'.
Why do so many people insist that Abigail needs to survive? Instead of Abigail needing more damage.
The main reason is that these new branches are too ineffective in expanding functionality and solving problems, to the extent that Abigail remains the vast majority of Wendy's power, and maintaining survival is Abigail's only need. Therefore, we are fighting for it instead of simply opposing it with 'too strong'.
No one likes to be deprived of their last piece of warm clothing in the cold winter.

So promote the expansion of these branches to make her more unique instead of championing making her less unique.

[YuRinshue]

6 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

So promote the expansion of these branches to make her more unique instead of championing making her less unique.

However, I have been striving for the former, not the latter that you are doing. Expanding other abilities and ensuring Abigail's survival have never been in opposition, don't confuse them.
Don't use a new piece of clothing as an excuse to take away another one, winter requires more than just one piece.

[WenericMember]

19 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

However, I have been striving for the former, not the latter that you are doing. Expanding other abilities and ensuring Abigail's survival have never been in opposition, don't confuse them.
Don't use a new piece of clothing as an excuse to take away another one, winter requires more than just one piece.

You're pretty obviously ignoring what ive been saying.

[Pig Princess]

7 hours ago, YuRinshue said:

However, I still have to stick to my opinion because I am the recorder of this video. I am aware that if I want to not use player tags, the amount of operation I put in will not be proportional to my return, or in other words, it will exceed my tolerance for balancing between characters. Not to mention, if I am playing with friends, the delay will make it even more difficult for me to perform the same operation, which will only make me appear to be of no help to the team.

 

7 hours ago, YuRinshue said:

You don't want your favorite character to be inferior to others in every aspect, at least they have their own strengths, even if they are small.

But that is the problem of Abigail not being very flexible to control, isn't it? Of course it feels bad to loose Abigail quickly, but instead of her becoming tanky I would rather have more types of commands, have animation for commands (that makes you stand still) removed or at least reduced in duration, have more types of actions I can actively do to help Abigail (such as activate her shield manually). The point is I want Abigail to stay alive and helpful during battle because of my own effort, my own control of her AI and my own reaction instead of her just doing well regardless if I pay attention to her or not. I don't think the need to pay attention to extra details makes character inferior; I think it's quite the opposite, i.e. it makes character fun and engaging. And I also think that player should be rewarded for extra effort, which for pre-rift enemies was extra damage and crowd control, and post rift we have practically the same. I also think post-rift gain should be adjusted in addition to the way to keep Abigail alive. I disagree with shadow affinity elixir giving % multiplier because not only is it counterproductive against planar enemies and goes against the whole idea of designing planar enemies (as a counter to damage multipliers stacking), but also it's inconsequential. I would rather have shadow elixir give bonus planar damage to Wendy who hits the same targer as Abigail, so Wendy once again feels risky, demanding in player's performance, but rewarding.

I'll try to think about potential commands more, but so far I didn't come up with anything sufficiently creative and meeting my own standarts.

7 hours ago, YuRinshue said:

If you are worried that it will make you feel bored, then I think you can assign the already limited skill points to other positions. After all, skill points are not enough to complete the entire skill tree.

Except they just merged a lot of skills and I can barely find some other skills that are practical. I was fine with skilltree from previous patch where I actually could choose different builds without taking inconsequential skills like vengeful ghost or perennial altar, I liked that I had to choose and prioritice, and now I have everything I want and extra points that I don't know what to do with. I don't like this, I prefer if there are more interesting things to choose from (it also boosts replay value).

Currently Wendy has 25 skills 3 of which she can't choose anyway because shadow and lunar affinities are mutually exclusive, so effectively it's 22. We have 15 skill points, however, I really dislike elixir branch for how bland it is mechanically (except basket that is nice QoL) and how Ghastly Experience makes player get away with ignoring Abigail. You could say I strongly dislike idea to the point that I don't want to even pick this skill, which leaves me with 18 potential skills and 15 skill points to spend. Vengeful ghost is a flavor and altar from mouring glories branch is just reskinned meat effigy. Don't get me wrong, art is cool, but I'm not a base builder, decorations don't bring me nearly as much joy as doing something mechanically interesting. So in the end I'm basically choosing between crafting graves, blessed sisturn 3 and more resouces from pipspoors. Considering I was completely fine with this minigame before skill tree, I'm spending points just to not spend on something I actively dislike, which is not very healthy. By the way, I really liked previous iteration of blessed sisturn 3 and 4 (they could be condensed into 1 skill though) and overheal mechanic. I like that one had to weave overhealing into their shedule, I like that this hp was unrecoverable with elixirs so one had to think carefully when to use it and if it's practical to use in particular situation, I liked how it worked for both mobs and bosses, so it could be alternative to healing elixirs for Bee Queen fight (Abigail takes damage from minions, not from the boss) and extra insurance without elixirs for ruins rush.

[YuRinshue]

4 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

但这就是 Abigail 控制不灵活的问题，不是吗？当然，快速失去阿比盖尔感觉很糟糕，但与其让她变得暴躁，我宁愿有更多类型的命令，删除命令的动画（让你站着不动）或至少缩短持续时间，有更多类型的动作我可以主动做来帮助阿比盖尔（比如手动激活她的盾牌）。关键是我希望阿比盖尔在战斗中保持活力和帮助，因为我自己的努力，我自己对她的 AI 的控制和我自己的反应，而不是无论我是否注意她，她都做得很好。

What you are thinking is the right direction, as I mentioned in my post. Too many skills are severely limited, or simply using cheap production to cover up the monotony of design, resulting in a lack of desire to use them. The reason why many people expect player tags to exist is also because the production team's design at most other nodes is excessively uninteresting and restrictive, which makes the content of player tags particularly useful.
Compared to expecting content that has not yet happened, many people believe that there must be at least one content that can bring enough benefits to the present. If you want to remove player tags, there must be content that can be supplemented from another direction, otherwise it will only make most of the boring skill trees even more useless.

4 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

除了他们只是融合了很多技能，我几乎找不到其他一些实用的技能。我对上一个补丁的技能树很好，我实际上可以选择不同的构建，而无需使用无关紧要的技能，如复仇幽灵或常年祭坛，我喜欢我必须选择和优先考虑，现在我拥有我想要的一切和我不知道该怎么做的额外积分。我不喜欢这个，我更喜欢有更多有趣的东西可供选择（这也提高了重玩价值）。

Currently Wendy has 25 skills 3 of which she can't choose anyway because shadow and lunar affinities are mutually exclusive, so effectively it's 22. We have 15 skill points, however, I really dislike elixir branch for how bland it is mechanically (except basket that is nice QoL) and how Ghastly Experience makes player get away with ignoring Abigail. You could say I strongly dislike idea to the point that I don't want to even pick this skill, which leaves me with 18 potential skills and 15 skill points to spend. Vengeful ghost is a flavor and altar from mouring glories branch is just reskinned meat effigy. Don't get me wrong, art is cool, but I'm not a base builder, decorations don't bring me nearly as much joy as doing something mechanically interesting. So in the end I'm basically choosing between crafting graves, blessed sisturn 3 and more resouces from pipspoors. Considering I was completely fine with this minigame before skill tree, I'm spending points just to not spend on something I actively dislike, which is not very healthy. By the way, I really liked previous iteration of blessed sisturn 3 and 4 (they could be condensed into 1 skill though) and overheal mechanic. I like that one had to weave overhealing into their shedule, I like that this hp was unrecoverable with elixirs so one had to think carefully when to use it and if it's practical to use in particular situation, I liked how it worked for both mobs and bosses, so it could be alternative to healing elixirs for Bee Queen fight (Abigail takes damage from minions, not from the boss) and extra insurance without elixirs for ruins rush.

Many people have actually suggested improving flexibility at the beginning, but it is obvious that the production team is somewhat "content with the status quo" in terms of flexibility changes, which makes the content of commanding Abigail still incomplete but cannot be changed, especially for potions like "Terrifying Experience", which are like skill trees that increase production for mourning glory, giving people a feeling of "the production team knows it is boring, but the production team decides to give you rewards faster rather than making it boring".
It is right to keep Abigail alive by paying attention, but what I oppose is that the reward I receive for this is not as good as Wilson using a 1.0 attack coefficient. When recording the video of the battle with player tags, I made a comparison. Although you may think that I didn't pay too much attention to Abigail, in fact, the attention I paid was already several times higher than that of all available characters.
As a result, I earned about 20% more combat time than Wilson with lower fault tolerance and more complex operations. In my opinion, this performance is unsatisfactory because combat is all that Abigail can currently help Wendy, and Abigail is the vast majority of Wendy's abilities.
So until Wendy's abilities become more practical and diverse, and the ways to keep Abigail alive become more interesting and practical, I hope the player tag will be retained.

10 hours ago, WenericMember said:

You're pretty obviously ignoring what ive been saying.

I think you have obviously ignored my long-standing statements, after all, you have not said a more interesting choice, but are still actively making a double standard response.
Just like what I once said to some stubborn and weakened double standard bastards:
”If you think she is currently an OP, then you should first make the abilities of characters who are more OP than her reasonable before considering her balance. Instead of shouting that a relatively normal content should not exist while ignoring the existence of another much stronger OP“
Make your contribution and then discuss your requirements
”Please put on socks before putting on your shoes“

4 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

Except they just merged a lot of skills and I can barely find some other skills that are practical. I was fine with skilltree from previous patch where I actually could choose different builds without taking inconsequential skills like vengeful ghost or perennial altar, I liked that I had to choose and prioritice, and now I have everything I want and extra points that I don't know what to do with. I don't like this, I prefer if there are more interesting things to choose from (it also boosts replay value).

Oh, by the way, I don't know why I didn't include this paragraph.
In short, this is my previous post, which contains a lot of my opinions on the situation of skill trees. I think there are actually many meaningful parts that are still relevant now. If you are interested, I recommend you try to take a look.

[Pig Princess]

1 hour ago, YuRinshue said:

So until Wendy's abilities become more practical and diverse, and the ways to keep Abigail alive become more interesting and practical, I hope the player tag will be retained.

I generally agree with your comment except this line. Currently Wendy has more than combat, tied to Abigail or not.

She can:

- dig/craft graves, which means she can do mob farm such as full moon pig farm, I also saw people farming mac tusk that way outside of full moon (author claimed ghosts from decorated graves work offscreen, I don't know if Klei patched it). Also dark petalt from decorated graves are passive source of nightmare fuel.

- haunt things, and among useful effects there are conversion of flowers to evil flowers (the latter don't wither in the caves and you can do sanity farm with Bee Queen crown since a few updates ago Klei allowed flowers to be planted much closer), changing type of mushroom (mushroom even stays in the state it was before, i.e. if you haunt red mushroom during day, you can pick your blue/green one right away, no need for shovel), extinguish dwarf stars (in case you placed them wrong or you want to turn off your farm that exploits flingomatic freezing effect),  make pig werepig, change type of hound and many more. You can help your local Webber to obtain nurse spider by haunting tier 3 spider nest in order to summon spider queen, and your Webber teammate won't need to die themselves.

- craft mouring glory crown and use it as moggles for the ruins rush even before obtaining glow berry (debth worms are usually not on the path to the ruins (they are at the dead end branches usually), so if you are not deliberately seeking them by making a detour as well as bringing alchemy to the ruins, it's useful). I wonder if you can use marble suit as better log suit with vigor mortis applied to the crown, just like Wolfgang uses it without penalty (technically, you would be 5% slower, but I'm not sure if it's going to make a difference). I also saw people using crown and healing elixirs for Wormwood, which is nice, I guess (I myself wouldn't ask Wendy for this if I were Wormwood though, but people are happy, so why not).

- craft butterflies. Now that it required 2 per butterfly it's cheap enough, and practically free if you have pipspook branch selected. You can get 20 mouring glories from single pipspook, which is 10 butterflies. I suppose you could convert mouring glories into souls for your local Wortox as well. Outside of shadow affinity for Wendy herself it's not very useful (it would be cool if Wendy could revive lunar moth too), although in lights out it's a way to make new flowers at the location you want (butterfly wings can be found in tumbleweeds and 1 flower is enough for bee boxes to produce offscreen, and it works in lights out so long as you cast dwarf star near them).

- resistance to insanity aura is nice, especially for everyone. It's even easier to not go insane now than ever. I'm not sure if it affects only creature auras, but if it reduces dusk and night sanity drain as well, it would help to recover sanity from using enlightened crown faster (to use again), especially if you are in the caves. I always miss Wendy's -25% sanity drain on other characters when I get access to the crown (I use sanity food only in boss fights and prefer to restore sanity naturally otherwise).

- you can also farm birds with Abigail via "attack at" command. While not very strong, it's nice to have that piece of small meat that you are missing in early game for another dish or to give jet/azure feather to your local Wigfrid without spending resources and rushing bird trap/ice staff.

And even before skill tree Wendy had ability to effortlessly farm resources. Technically fight with spiders is combat, but let's be real - it's free resources and effortless cleaning of the forest for her (unless spider queen spawns, then you have to help her, and it's still much easier and more convenient fight than for everyone else). She can also run honey farm better than anyone else because she can continue to pick while Abigail reaggroes bees on her and unsummon Abi before she kills bees. Bees start to work faster than if you use freezing to deaggro them or run away from them.

Edit: since you edited your message and I replied to previous mention, I have to add that I disagree with this part as well, and I would like people no know that (I don't want to discuss this).

Spoiler

1 hour ago, YuRinshue said:

I think you have obviously ignored my long-standing statements, after all, you have not said a more interesting choice, but are still actively making a double standard response.
Just like what I once said to some stubborn and weakened double standard bastards:
”If you think she is currently an OP, then you should first make the abilities of characters who are more OP than her reasonable before considering her balance. Instead of shouting that a relatively normal content should not exist while ignoring the existence of another much stronger OP“

Also thank you for the link. A lot of stuff is buried quite quickly.

[Soul7k]

5 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

- craft butterflies. Now that it required 2 per butterfly it's cheap enough, and practically free if you have pipspook branch selected. You can get 20 mouring glories from single pipspook, which is 10 butterflies. I suppose you could convert mouring glories into souls for your local Wortox as well. Outside of shadow affinity for Wendy herself it's not very useful (it would be cool if Wendy could revive lunar moth too)., although in lights out it's a way to make new flowers at the location you want (butterfly wings can be found in tumbleweeds and 1 flower is enough for bee boxes to produce offscreen).

To add to this it adds another way to generate flowers for sanity/more butterflies without a net, bee farms or whatever you need them for

[Dingle]

6 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

 

But that is the problem of Abigail not being very flexible to control, isn't it? Of course it feels bad to loose Abigail quickly, but instead of her becoming tanky I would rather have more types of commands, have animation for commands (that makes you stand still) removed or at least reduced in duration, have more types of actions I can actively do to help Abigail (such as activate her shield manually). The point is I want Abigail to stay alive and helpful during battle because of my own effort, my own control of her AI and my own reaction instead of her just doing well regardless if I pay attention to her or not. I don't think the need to pay attention to extra details makes character inferior; I think it's quite the opposite, i.e. it makes character fun and engaging. And I also think that player should be rewarded for extra effort, which for pre-rift enemies was extra damage and crowd control, and post rift we have practically the same. I also think post-rift gain should be adjusted in addition to the way to keep Abigail alive. I disagree with shadow affinity elixir giving % multiplier because not only is it counterproductive against planar enemies and goes against the whole idea of designing planar enemies (as a counter to damage multipliers stacking), but also it's inconsequential. I would rather have shadow elixir give bonus planar damage to Wendy who hits the same targer as Abigail, so Wendy once again feels risky, demanding in player's performance, but rewarding.

I'll try to think about potential commands more, but so far I didn't come up with anything sufficiently creative and meeting my own standarts.

Except they just merged a lot of skills and I can barely find some other skills that are practical. I was fine with skilltree from previous patch where I actually could choose different builds without taking inconsequential skills like vengeful ghost or perennial altar, I liked that I had to choose and prioritice, and now I have everything I want and extra points that I don't know what to do with. I don't like this, I prefer if there are more interesting things to choose from (it also boosts replay value).

Currently Wendy has 25 skills 3 of which she can't choose anyway because shadow and lunar affinities are mutually exclusive, so effectively it's 22. We have 15 skill points, however, I really dislike elixir branch for how bland it is mechanically (except basket that is nice QoL) and how Ghastly Experience makes player get away with ignoring Abigail. You could say I strongly dislike idea to the point that I don't want to even pick this skill, which leaves me with 18 potential skills and 15 skill points to spend. Vengeful ghost is a flavor and altar from mouring glories branch is just reskinned meat effigy. Don't get me wrong, art is cool, but I'm not a base builder, decorations don't bring me nearly as much joy as doing something mechanically interesting. So in the end I'm basically choosing between crafting graves, blessed sisturn 3 and more resouces from pipspoors. Considering I was completely fine with this minigame before skill tree, I'm spending points just to not spend on something I actively dislike, which is not very healthy. By the way, I really liked previous iteration of blessed sisturn 3 and 4 (they could be condensed into 1 skill though) and overheal mechanic. I like that one had to weave overhealing into their shedule, I like that this hp was unrecoverable with elixirs so one had to think carefully when to use it and if it's practical to use in particular situation, I liked how it worked for both mobs and bosses, so it could be alternative to healing elixirs for Bee Queen fight (Abigail takes damage from minions, not from the boss) and extra insurance without elixirs for ruins rush.

Was messing with her skill tree builds.

Her skill tree was always really free form, but that plus all the merged skills makes it extremely free form and loose.

The problem with this is there's no sacrifices to be made. You just pick the strong stuff.

Very quickly, people are just going to all pick a main "best build" with very little variation. Same thing happened to Wolfgang.

[Xplan]

Just now, Dingle said:

Was messing with her skill tree builds.

Her skill tree was always really free form, but that plus all the merged skills makes it extremely free form and loose.

The problem with this is there's no sacrifices to be made. You just pick the strong stuff.

Very quickly, people are just going to all pick a main "best build" with very little variation. Same thing happened to Wolfgang.

Indeed, we can keep sisturn skill for who are not good at helping Abi to dodge.

And make Team spirit more useful, so the skillful players can save the insight on sisturn.

[Dingle]

15 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

To all big fan of "Blessed Sisturn III is OP" videos: The GigaChad Canadian Lumberjack's "Treeguard Feller II" can not just tank but also kill with "no effort". Just to be on the safe side, I also recorded proof video, but please don't be so dogged as to make me edit it.

 

We (friends and I) tried this in a real game once. It works, but its really expensive to farm the resources for it. So we only did it a couple times, then stopped using the strategy.

The comparison only works if it's just as hard to farm spectral cure alls as Wendy. I intend to test and compare in a real playthrough. I do doubt it though, it seems to me that Wendy would farm that vastly easier than Woodie can farm treeguard idols.

[YuRinshue]

1 hour ago, Pig Princess said:

I generally agree with your comment except this line. Currently Wendy has more than combat, tied to Abigail or not.

She can:

- dig/craft graves, which means she can do mob farm such as full moon pig farm, I also saw people farming mac tusk that way outside of full moon (author claimed ghosts from decorated graves work offscreen, I don't know if Klei patched it). Also dark petalt from decorated graves are passive source of nightmare fuel.

- haunt things, and among useful effects there are conversion of flowers to evil flowers (the latter don't wither in the caves and you can do sanity farm with Bee Queen crown since a few updates ago Klei allowed flowers to be planted much closer), changing type of mushroom (mushroom even stays in the state it was before, i.e. if you haunt red mushroom during day, you can pick your blue/green one right away, no need for shovel), extinguish dwarf stars (in case you placed them wrong or you want to turn off your farm that exploits flingomatic freezing effect),  make pig werepig, change type of hound and many more. You can help your local Webber to obtain nurse spider by haunting tier 3 spider nest in order to summon spider queen, and your Webber teammate won't need to die themselves.

- craft mouring glory crown and use it as moggles for the ruins rush even before obtaining glow berry (debth worms are usually not on the path to the ruins (they are at the dead end branches usually), so if you are not deliberately seeking them by making a detour as well as bringing alchemy to the ruins, it's useful). I wonder if you can use marble suit as better log suit with vigor mortis applied to the crown, just like Wolfgang uses it without penalty (technically, you would be 5% slower, but I'm not sure if it's going to make a difference). I also saw people using crown and healing elixirs for Wormwood, which is nice, I guess (I myself wouldn't ask Wendy for this if I were Wormwood though, but people are happy, so why not).

- craft butterflies. Now that it required 2 per butterfly it's cheap enough, and practically free if you have pipspook branch selected. You can get 20 mouring glories from single pipspook, which is 10 butterflies. I suppose you could convert mouring glories into souls for your local Wortox as well. Outside of shadow affinity for Wendy herself it's not very useful (it would be cool if Wendy could revive lunar moth too), although in lights out it's a way to make new flowers at the location you want (butterfly wings can be found in tumbleweeds and 1 flower is enough for bee boxes to produce offscreen, and it works in lights out so long as you cast dwarf star near them).

- resistance to insanity aura is nice, especially for everyone. It's even easier to not go insane now than ever. I'm not sure if it affects only creature auras, but if it reduces dusk and night sanity drain as well, it would help to recover sanity from using enlightened crown faster (to use again), especially if you are in the caves. I always miss Wendy's -25% sanity drain on other characters when I get access to the crown (I use sanity food only in boss fights and prefer to restore sanity naturally otherwise).

- you can also farm birds with Abigail via "attack at" command. While not very strong, it's nice to have that piece of small meat that you are missing in early game for another dish or to give jet/azure feather to your local Wigfrid without spending resources and rushing bird trap/ice staff.

And even before skill tree Wendy had ability to effortlessly farm resources. Technically fight with spiders is combat, but let's be real - it's free resources and effortless cleaning of the forest for her (unless spider queen spawns, then you have to help her, and it's still much easier and more convenient fight than for everyone else). She can also run honey farm better than anyone else because she can continue to pick while Abigail reaggroes bees on her and unsummon Abi before she kills bees. Bees start to work faster than if you use freezing to deaggro them or run away from them.

Edit: since you edited your message and I replied to previous mention, I have to add that I disagree with this part as well, and I would like people no know that (I don't want to discuss this).

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Also thank you for the link. A lot of stuff is buried quite quickly.

I am aware of the existence of these features, but they all have some degree of "inadequacy" issues. If you want to listen, I can also explain their problems one by one, but that is cumbersome, and I have written about them in other places such as my article, so here I will briefly explain my overall opinion. Of course, if you want to communicate in detail, you can also do so.
Overall, I don't deny the emergence of these features, but they have too much "substitutability" that makes it difficult for me to choose. If you refer to the skill trees of Votox, Winona, and Woody, you will have the idea of "wow, I find every feature here very interesting, I really want to have it all", but Wendy's current skill tree only gives me "um". It seems that these are the few things that can make me substantially achieve things that I couldn't do before, while the others This feeling of powerlessness.
They are not useless, it's just that I can pick out choices that I hardly change in just one minute, it's like sifting through gold in mud instead of giving me a rich selection.

[Dingle]

6 minutes ago, Xplan said:

Indeed, we can keep sisturn skill for who are not good at helping Abi to dodge.

And make Team spirit more useful, so the skillful players can save the insight on sisturn.

I think one or both of us got translated wrong!

I was talking about how Wendy skill tree is too open.

Due to that, saving 3 insight really is kind of moot.

[YuRinshue]

8 minutes ago, Dingle said:

We (friends and I) tried this in a real game once. It works, but its really expensive to farm the resources for it. So we only did it a couple times, then stopped using the strategy.

The comparison only works if it's just as hard to farm spectral cure alls as Wendy. I intend to test and compare in a real playthrough. I do doubt it though, it seems to me that Wendy would farm that vastly easier than Woodie can farm treeguard idols.

It sounds like there is a significant difference in our gaming experience. On our side, the location of the Tree Man application is often not something that needs to be faced multiple times, such as defeating a celestial hero for the first time, defeating a suffering toad, and so on.
Alternatively, a tree person can be reused many times after executing it once, so it is very popular. After all, the summoned tree man will give you abundant living wood after falling, and you only need to spend nightmare fuel, which can be obtained through other means.
In short, we are more looking forward to the possibility of a feature rather than a low efficiency that can be seen at a glance. Even if it is cheap, price is the easiest thing to satisfy, and the possibility of functionality is not.

[Dingle]

2 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

 They are not useless, it's just that I can pick out choices that I hardly change in just one minute, it's like sifting through gold in mud instead of giving me a rich selection.

Winona has this problem too. Wigfrid also. Even Wolfgang does, though his gold is especially obviously shiny.

Wortox does have "I want to have it all", but then you can't have it all. Lots of locks and hidden costs.

I kind of wonder if some of what you're feeling is due to Wendy's skill tree not having these restrictions. It's too easy to dig out the gold. Other characters don't get a shovel, thet actually have to eat a lot of the mud with locks and filler.

10 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

It sounds like there is a significant difference in our gaming experience. On our side, the location of the Tree Man application is often not something that needs to be faced multiple times, such as defeating a celestial hero for the first time, defeating a suffering toad, and so on.
Alternatively, a tree person can be reused many times after executing it once, so it is very popular. After all, the summoned tree man will give you abundant living wood after falling, and you only need to spend nightmare fuel, which can be obtained through other means.
In short, we are more looking forward to the possibility of a feature rather than a low efficiency that can be seen at a glance. Even if it is cheap, price is the easiest thing to satisfy, and the possibility of functionality is not.

Yeah the living logs multiply after the first use. My group looked at the nightmare fuel cost after the second time, then we compared it to the difficulty of just fighting bosses more normally. Fighting normally won for us. Treeguards didn't seem efficient enough to justify.

Opinions differ though.

[YuRinshue]

11 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Winona has this problem too. Wigfrid also. Even Wolfgang does, though his gold is especially obviously shiny.

Wortox does have "I want to have it all", but then you can't have it all. Lots of locks and hidden costs.

I kind of wonder if some of what you're feeling is due to Wendy's skill tree not having these restrictions. It's too easy to dig out the gold. Other characters don't get a shovel, thet actually have to eat a lot of the mud with locks and filler.

Everyone may have different attitudes towards which skills are useful.
But on our side, Weigefude and Wolfgang are both poor performers of skill tree quality. I don't think it's wrong to strive for a high-quality skill tree, and I also believe that those poor skill trees need more changes rather than becoming benchmarks. Just like Wilson's, just like Wigford's.

[Dingle]

2 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

Everyone may have different attitudes towards which skills are useful.

Technically true, but you must know that some characters have their skill tree "solved". A general "best skill tree" that most people get, with only small changes, if any.

When I saw your willow skill tree, for example, it was pretty much the same as my skill tree when I play her. And this was not a surprise to me.

Hoping Wendy can avoid the same, it's boring.