Blessed Sisturn III is Way too Strong

[IAmAFurrz]

2 hours ago, Lardee said:

I think Klei needs to go back to the drawing board with this one. Skill trees should not simply cut character weaknesses by 75% unless absolutely necessary. It's not necessary for Wendy. Wendy could already beat almost every boss without using a single Spectral Cure All and Spectral Cure All already was the solution to making her more survivable if you didn't possess the skill or knowledge to avoid damage with her. These are now much easier to make and she has controls that help Abigail avoid damage.

Instead of removing weaknesses, skill trees should be increasing strengths at a cost, giving characters more tools to master, or giving them risk/reward options

yea i wish they would just make wendy be able to position abi without that stupid animation, instead of just making abi harder to kill without input after just getting lune tree blossoms :\ idk whats with them just giving up on walter and wendys design

[Nikki Darks]

2 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I know. I'm disagreeing with your assessment that this is a bad thing. If you're constantly topping off Abigail's health with Spectral Cure-Alls, how is this any different from shoveling pierogis or trail mix down your own gullet? I don't get it. 

Okay then, let's nerf Wolfgang to heal 50% less. After all, healing is free for him due to his double damage, right? He can literally one-shot mobs like spiders with just a fresh ham bat. 
Note: I am not suggesting that seriously, it's just your logic. 

You seem to think Wolfgang is remotely similar to Wendy.

Wendy has:
Aoe damage
Burst single target damage
Survivability on a minion who does the above
Does 2.1 damage to targets affected by shadow vex

Wolfgang has:
2.0 damage to single targets

Next please.

[Lardee]

Just now, DegenerateFurry said:

I know. I'm disagreeing with your assessment that this is a bad thing. If you're constantly topping off Abigail's health with Spectral Cure-Alls, how is this any different from shoveling pierogis or trail mix down your own gullet? I don't get it. 

The point of the video was to show how much her survivability increases in comparison to default, not that face tanking bosses with Abigail is a strategy everyone will or should be using.

 

[IAmAFurrz]

1 hour ago, Arcwell said:

You can think whatever you want about the skill, I just wanted an alternative to spectral cure-all. Seeing everyone claim the skill is broken because of spectral cure-all is infuriating to me.

sadly, thats not all there is to the problem. if they nerfed spectral, then youre still stuck with the lack of repositioning of abi, so you spend time despawning her, then respawning after shes sat out of the fight for long enough (as well as not be in danger yourself, which is hard with newer bosses) or just fight without her bc its just more hassle than its worth

[aidankocherhans]

2 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I know. I'm disagreeing with your assessment that this is a bad thing. If you're constantly topping off Abigail's health with Spectral Cure-Alls, how is this any different from shoveling pierogis or trail mix down your own gullet? I don't get it. 

You can't eat perogies while actively attacking, and you don't spend armor with Abigail. Even if you do fight with Abigail it removes any of the skill it would have required, and makes team spirit a waste of effort

[QuitePositiveGC]

1 hour ago, Lardee said:

Instead of removing weaknesses, skill trees should be increasing strengths at a cost, giving characters more tools to master, or giving them risk/reward options.

While I don't think it's OP, I do agree with this. At the end of the day, while I won't optimize the fun out of my game, others might. So some changes should be made.

[DegenerateFurry]

Just now, Nikki Darks said:

You seem to think Wolfgang is remotely similar to Wendy.

Wendy has:
Aoe damage
Burst single target damage
Survivability on a minion who does the above
Does 2.1 damage to targets affected by shadow vex

Wolfgang has:
2.0 damage to single targets

Snide comment that adds nothing.

Spider glands only heal 8 HP each, which is borderline useless, and I'd rather kill butterflies if it's not winter since those are at least faster to eat. You need rocks and ash to make them do half as much as a pierogi, you need twice the amount of monster meat to make eggs for pierogis, and you need vegetables, so no, healing isn't even free just on a conceptual level. Easier to get as some characters? Sure, but not free. 

Wolfgang just smacks, runs, and repeats until all the spiders are dead. Infinite spider glands!

Weremoose charges through them a couple times and takes out a huge group of them. Infinite spider glands once he turns back and monster meat he needs to transform again!

Webber goes to a place with a bunch of spider dens and starts a civil war. Infinite spider glands and food he can eat raw!

Winona sets up some catapults and puts them near spiders. Infinite spider glands! 

Willow does her funny fire magic. Bam, "infinite free healing"!

The only difference here is that Woodie and Winona actually have to give up something (Woodie needs to eat after turning back, Winona needs time to set up catapults) before they have kill as many spiders as you want with basically zero risk or effort-capabilities. Wendy doesn't have to give up anything because AoE trash clear is her thing.

[Nikki Darks]

Just now, DegenerateFurry said:

Spider glands only heal 8 HP each, which is borderline useless, and I'd rather kill butterflies if it's not winter since those are at least faster to eat. You need rocks and ash to make them do half as much as a pierogi, you need twice the amount of monster meat to make eggs for pierogis, and you need vegetables, so no, healing isn't even free just on a conceptual level. Easier to get as some characters? Sure, but not free. 

Wolfgang just smacks, runs, and repeats until all the spiders are dead. Infinite spider glands!

Weremoose charges through them a couple times and takes out a huge group of them. Infinite spider glands once he turns back and monster meat he needs to transform again!

Webber goes to a place with a bunch of spider dens and starts a civil war. Infinite spider glands and food he can eat raw!

Winona sets up some catapults and puts them near spiders. Infinite spider glands! 

Willow does her funny fire magic. Bam, "infinite free healing"!

The only difference here is that Woodie and Winona actually have to give up something (Woodie needs to eat after turning back, Winona needs time to set up catapults) before they have kill as many spiders as you want with basically zero risk or effort-capabilities. Wendy doesn't have to give up anything because AoE trash clear is her thing.

Basic mathematics goes against the "borderline useless" train of thought.

Sure, just 8 HP is nothing, but when it comes to Wendy, she ends up with stacks and stacks of glands to the sheer speed at which she clears spiders.

[IAmAFurrz]

4 minutes ago, QuitePositiveGC said:

While I don't think it's OP, I do agree with this. At the end of the day, while I won't optimize the fun out of my game, others might. So some changes should be made.

its moreso that they added commands to wendy to do stuff with abi, but its so much less useful than the lunetree blossoms, as well as being unsynergetic as one is skill based while the other just makes her unkillable (you can get both and repositioning wouldnt matter (not that they do often rn for bosses that she doesnt already destroy))

[Dingle]

3 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Spider glands only heal 8 HP each, which is borderline useless, and I'd rather kill butterflies if it's not winter since those are at least faster to eat. You need rocks and ash to make them do half as much as a pierogi, you need twice the amount of monster meat to make eggs for pierogis, and you need vegetables, so no, healing isn't even free just on a conceptual level. Easier to get as some characters? Sure, but not free. 

Wolfgang just smacks, runs, and repeats until all the spiders are dead. Infinite spider glands!

Weremoose charges through them a couple times and takes out a huge group of them. Infinite spider glands once he turns back and monster meat he needs to transform again!

Webber goes to a place with a bunch of spider dens and starts a civil war. Infinite spider glands and food he can eat raw!

Winona sets up some catapults and puts them near spiders. Infinite spider glands! 

Willow does her funny fire magic. Bam, "infinite free healing"!

The only difference here is that Woodie and Winona actually have to give up something (Woodie needs to eat after turning back, Winona needs time to set up catapults) before they have kill as many spiders as you want with basically zero risk or effort-capabilities. Wendy doesn't have to give up anything because AoE trash clear is her thing.

.. what?

[QuitePositiveGC]

6 minutes ago, Nikki Darks said:

Does 2.1 damage to targets affected by shadow vex

That math ain't mathin', I don't think. 1.1*1.6 = 1.76, unless there's a dmg boost I'm missing, I don't think that true. Also, that 1.76 is only applicable while riding a Beefalo, which isn't a downside, just of note.

Either way, don't mind me being a bit pedantic, keep cookin'!

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Arcwell said:

Ugh.

I just wanted from Wendy's skill tree to not have to rely on potions. I was very happy when Blessed Sisturn was changed because Abby finally got the survivability not tied to healing that I always wanted her to have. Instead, the argument I keep getting met with now is that Abigail should be even more reliant on potions, that they should be expected to a point where people who don't use them should not even be considered. 

You can think whatever you want about the skill, I just wanted an alternative to spectral cure-all. Seeing everyone claim the skill is broken because of spectral cure-all is infuriating to me.

The fact potions exist can't be ignored without removing the healing and revival ones entirely I do get where your coming from though but it's kind of a situation of the new design conflicting with what already exists.

[DegenerateFurry]

12 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

You can't eat perogies while actively attacking, and you don't spend armor with Abigail. Even if you do fight with Abigail it removes any of the skill it would have required, and makes team spirit a waste of effort

It doesn't make it a waste of effort. It makes it so that you don't have to sink a billion Spectral Cure-Alls into keeping Abigail alive if you use it alongside her increased tankiness versus bosses, and if you do want to sink a billion Spectral Cure-Alls into keeping her alive, it makes those actually matter. It also makes it more forgiving for people who don't spam animation cancels and frame-perfectly time every command to Abigail (read: 99% of players who'd take these skills; games should never ever be balanced around what the top 1% most skilled can do). 

Also, the video demonstrated that she will still die without help if you just spam Cure-Alls and let her face-tank, so she can't solo bosses anyway. Once again, I fail to see the problem. Yes, it's a big increase to how durable she is against bosses. That is a good thing and people have been wanting it for a while, and it was even a popular suggestion not long before it was implemented.

4 minutes ago, Dingle said:

.. what?

TL;DR, there's other characters who can get buttloads of spider glands super easily.

[Lee lol]

3 minutes ago, Nikki Darks said:

基础数学与“边缘无用”的思路背道而驰。

当然，只有 8 HP 不算什么，但当涉及到 Wendy 时，她最终会以清除蜘蛛的绝对速度获得一堆又一堆的腺体。

I never use glands when I play Wendy because they're too slow. An 8hp, it is also troublesome to make a healing ointment. I'd rather use baked potatoes or dumplings

[ColdHeaven]

Abigail still can't cook,feed and farm plants for me. What are you talking about Lardee? 

[HowlVoid]

And it only takes 7 seconds to heal back to full.

TOTALLY didn't  see this coming, cause everyone was being overdramatic right? 

People underestimate just how much you can underestand from seing something on paper when you have years of experience playing this game...

Even with the initial patch notes I couldn't believe klei didn't lower her max hp just as a starting line for balance. Like 500 hp just as starting line. 

[Xplan]

We have already known that you are a splendid player. 

If the skill is too strong for you. Why dont you spend the insights elsewhere, like revenge ghost.

[Dingle]

6 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

TL;DR, there's other characters who can get buttloads of spider glands super easily.

The healing conversion argument is this giant weird tangent.

You can spend easy to acquire healing out of combat for Wendy, to turn Abigail into a tank.

It's a good deal. Healing food sources are numerous. There's tents. There's jellybeans.

I'm assuming this is an intentional derail for argument purposes. I'm hoping, anyway.

[cyjs]

So many people still think there is a problem, so I think there is a problem with the skill tree itself. Why can't we redo Wendy's skill tree?

[Koomin]

4 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

It's clear what needs to be done, then.

Instead of clogging the forums with Blessed Sisturn III nerfs, we should instead spread Team Spirit awareness to improve the skill branch. Klei is already aware of them needing functionality improvements, perhaps we can give suggestions for how they could go about it, for KB+M and controllers.

I'll start with my contribution (I need to edit it a bit but it's still relevant):

 

The player tag is so overpowered that no one will choose the other options that are more fun -> "it is clear that we just make the other options also all overpowered now".  I really don't understand why making a character way too strong is fun for people playing that character.

 

[WenericMember]

People saying this is too inefficient - have you considered that this isnt mutually exclusive with shadow Abby?

Thats more planar defense and doubled dls from what was shown in the vid

2 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

The very notion that the skill is even there displeases him.

Players have a tendancy to optimise the fun out of the game. Pretty sure its a known effect, so devs should be trying to avoid broken stuff.

[SullyD]

Really? It's ridiculous if it stays that way

[HowlVoid]

If this was just on Gestalt abigail which has less dps than shadow Abigail and requires people to somewhat progress far in the game (or get carried) it would be a lot more contained.

But honestly there's bigger issues with different conflicting perspectives invading the mind set of the developers. There needs to be better quality control for what path development is going to take from here on. This skill tree is turning into a real mess because Wendy players are always at the ready with pitchforks.

[Nikki Darks]

Atp, Abigail can 1 tap misery toadstool and I am fine with it for as long as she can't hit shadows. The bar is in hell.

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

If this was just on Gestalt abigail which has less dps than shadow Abigail and requires people to somewhat progress far in the game (or get carried) it would be a lot more contained.

But honestly there's bigger issues with different conflicting perspectives invading the mind set of the developers. There needs to be better quality control for what path development is going to take from here on. This skill tree is turning into a real mess because Wendy players are always at the ready with pitchforks.

I think if it stays the form should require pure brilliance to maintain or at least use.