I don’t agree with the Sistern skills change

[Eieni]

36 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

Spiders are hired followers, that's not the same as a permanent follower

IIRC, this means they can also wear head gears.

[Mysterious box]

38 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

No, what he needs is something else. Spiders are a very different follower type to something like Abigail or Bernie. Webber's biggest need right now is something that optimizes spider code so that they aren't extremely laggy in larger numbers. His armies don't even really struggle with AoE bosses anymore if you have a few nurses in the ranks. At most, I'd say he should get some really cheap spider logsuits he can make with two logs and a piece of silk each.

I disagree as this wouldn't help them against planar damage and I feel like it leans far too hard into Wurt's gameplay direction while also making them far too expensive going against the intended cheap nature of his army.

To add on to this Webber doesn't have production abilities outside of his beard meaning armoring up all his spiders is extremely expensive even with your proposed solution and that's not all, his cookies are expensive, and getting his spiders from their homes are expensive while also not benefiting from being able to revive them like Abigial, Bernie, or even merms while also being susceptible to fear they definitely need the player tag to make the risk more fair.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, aidankocherhans said:

Spiders are hired followers, that's not the same as a permanent follower

That doesn't matter they fulfill the same purpose to the character the fact they aren't permanent and don't benefit from what permanent followers for which the cost of death is cheaper is a bigger issue I'd say.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

3 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

I truly did not think there would be any debate on this decision; once again, I underestimate the forums. 

Actually, I think you might be overestimating them.

[WenericMember]

24 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

Alright, this is a terrible idea, but I will try to make some opinions change.

First, tell me why you dislike Blessed Sisturn III based on what you think it entails; I say this because maybe Klei didn't explain it clear enough, or there are some common misunderstandings that result in people assuming the worst. 

For my part, and Im waiting till I actually get home in a week and test,  I'm concerned that spectral cure all is already one of Wendys best potions, fully healing her in 30s. 

This change may make Abigail functionally immortal against slower enemies like the shadow pieces, and incredibly difficult to die using a minimum of effort. This, in turn, removes the importance of many of her skills, such as team spirit, ghastly experience, and lunar Abigail 

Damage resistance + regen is an exceptionally broken combo in many cases.

[aidankocherhans]

26 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

I truly did not think there would be any debate on this decision; once again, I underestimate the forums. 

It's a drastic change for the character, it warrants discussion 

2 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

For my part, and Im waiting till I actually get home in a week and test,  I'm concerned that spectral cure all is already one of Wendys best potions, fully healing her in 30s. 

This change may make Abigail functionally immortal against slower enemies like the shadow pieces, and incredibly difficult to die using a minimum of effort. 

Damage resistance + regen is an exceptionally broken combo in many cases.

Someone mentioned they could tank deerclops, so yeah it might be a problem 

[WenericMember]

9 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

It's a drastic change for the character, it warrants discussion 

Someone mentioned they could tank deerclops, so yeah it might be a problem 

People really need to post videos. If it really is that bad it should be really easy to demonstrate.

[Arcwell]

11 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

For my part, and Im waiting till I actually get home in a week and test,  I'm concerned that spectral cure all is already one of Wendys best potions, fully healing her in 30s. 

This change may make Abigail functionally immortal against slower enemies like the shadow pieces, and incredibly difficult to die using a minimum of effort. 

Damage resistance + regen is an exceptionally broken combo in many cases.

Blessed Sisturn III has no impact on this.

Shadow pieces do not deal different damage to players and a single spectral cure-all was already enough to outheal T3 bishop with no skills.

[WenericMember]

3 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Blessed Sisturn III has no impact on this.

Shadow pieces do not deal different damage to players and a single spectral cure-all was already enough to outheal T3 bishop with no skills.

 

Isnt bishop a multihit? The one kind of attack Abby could tank well? That probably shouldnt be the main example. I was specifically thinking about shadow rook.

[aidankocherhans]

6 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

People really need to post videos. If it really is that bad it should be really easy to demonstrate.

 

10 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Giving Abigail the player tag cuts boss damage in half which means her health is basically doubled. However, it also effectively doubles the strength of Abigail's healing potions. This means Abigail's survivability isn't simply doubled, it ends up at least quadrupled if you decide to use things like Spectral Cure All.

The video below shows just how difficult Abigail becomes to kill when using Blessed Sisturn III. Please note that this is in a scenario where you're literally trying to tank bosses with Abigail.

If you're playing the game the regular way and not trying to solo a boss with just Abigail, she's almost unkillable if you use Spectral Cure All.

I think Klei needs to go back to the drawing board with this one. Skill trees should not simply cut character weaknesses by 75% unless absolutely necessary. It's not necessary for Wendy. Wendy could already beat almost every boss without using a single Spectral Cure All. Wendy already had solutions for survivability pre-skill tree: Spectral Cure All. These are now much easier to make and she has controls that help Abigail avoid damage.

Instead of removing weaknesses, skill trees should be increasing strengths at a cost, giving characters more tools to master, or giving them risk/reward options.

 

There you go 

So I wonder if the better solution would be to rework the skill completely, nerf healing while the skill is active, or just reduce the damage resistance 

[Arcwell]

5 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Isnt bishop a multihit? The one kind of attack Abby could tank well? That probably shouldnt be the main example. I was specifically thinking about shadow rook.

As I said, shadow pieces do not use different damage values for players vs. mobs. The same applies to shadow rook. There is no difference in the survivability between an Abby who does and doesn't have Blessed Sisturn III vs. a T3 shadow rook.

[WenericMember]

2 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

 

There you go 

Just saw that. 

Yeah after seeing that I think I've made up my mind.

Just now, Arcwell said:

As I said, shadow pieces do not use different damage values for players vs. mobs. The same applies to shadow rook. There is no difference in the survivability between an Abby who does and doesn't have Blessed Sisturn III vs. a T3 shadow rook.

Fair enough. Just saw a bunch of other bosses though and uhhhhhh I think it needs nerfs.

[Arthurian Titan]

26 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

 

There you go 

So I wonder if the better solution would be to rework the skill completely, nerf healing while the skill is active, or just reduce the damage resistance 

 

I think it's fine the way it is because to replicate this you need a bunch of Spectral Cure-All for almost no benefit. Like, the problem with Old Gestalt is that she solo'ed the bosses without you having to use anything, while this 'tanking' requires a bunch of elixirs for a little bit of damage, and the only Boss you can Solo is Deerclops and it takes 2 minutes. Like, there's no reason to use this in survival when you can fight alongside Abigail, and when you're doing that the Boss will focus on you.
I, while playing legit, would never do this 'tanking' considering I would lose a bunch of stock of my most important elixir for no benefit at all.

[Jakepeng99]

6 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I'm just going to say this if abigial gets a player tag then Bernie should get a player tag and so should Webber's spiders when he gets his skill tree especially Webber since spiders are considered a large part of his character as well.

And give merms the player tag too because not op enough.

Also how did this become 5 page in 7 hour lol I came back from a trip and its armour bearger and stuff.

[Mysterious box]

23 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

And give merms the player tag too because not op enough.

Also how did this become 5 page in 7 hour lol I came back from a trip and its armour bearger and stuff.

Merms already have multiple mechanics in play to avoid being overwhelmed by damage spiders not only don't but can't be handled in the same way as merms due to their naturally lower hp and in ability to help Webber produce their armor like merms do for Wurt. Not to mention Webber's follower handling more closely follows Wendy's and Abigail's rather Wurts. At least those are my thoughts on the matter.

[Jakepeng99]

4 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Merms already have multiple mechanics in play to avoid being overwhelmed by damage spiders not only don't but can't be handled in the same way as merms due to their naturally lower hp and in ability to help Webber produce their armor like merms do for Wurt. Not to mention Webber's follower handling more closely follows Wendy's and Abigail's rather Wurts. At least those are my thoughts on the matter.

I was being sarcastic lol.

 

i believe Merms are way too strong.

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, Fitzee said:

So from the sounds of it, a healthier suggestion would be to halve the healing of elixirs while Abigail has the player tag; lore-wise, since the lune tree blossoms make her more human, potions made for ghosts would be less effective on her.

I made the same suggestion.

I think it could work because the people that were excited for Sisturn III were also people that tended to hate the potion system.

I'm they're not using potions anyway, then the downside wouldn't affect them.

[Mysterious box]

17 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Merms already have multiple mechanics in play to avoid being overwhelmed by damage spiders not only don't but can't be handled in the same way as merms due to their naturally lower hp and in ability to help Webber produce their armor like merms do for Wurt. Not to mention Webber's follower handling more closely follows Wendy's and Abigail's rather Wurts. At least those are my thoughts on the matter.

Actually as of Lardee's test I've changed my mind player tag is too strong for followers wow...

[Dingle]

3 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

Have you made a thread for your suggestion? Doing so would prevent it from being drowned out by threads asking for the removal of a feature that was just implemented. 

I'll probably make one next week after I get some time to do a real playthrough as Wendy. That and it gives people time to discuss the Lardee video/thread more.

[Siren11]

10 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

So from the sounds of it, a healthier suggestion would be to halve the healing of elixirs while Abigail has the player tag; lore-wise, since the lune tree blossoms make her more human, potions made for ghosts would be less effective on her.

This was my first thought, though I’m not sure how it would actually work in practice.

[Lee lol]

7小时前，神秘盒子说：

我只想说，如果abigial得到了一个玩家标签，那么Bernie应该得到一个玩家标签，当Webber得到他的技能树时，蜘蛛也应该得到一个玩家标签，特别是Webber，因为蜘蛛也被认为是他角色的重要组成部分。

Abi was human when she’s alive….

[Well-met]

Just now, Lee lol said:

Abi was human when she’s alive….

not relevant the least. Boss' double damage against mobs is entirely for gameplay. She is a mob.

[Mysterious box]

10 minutes ago, Lee lol said:

Abi was human when she’s alive….

Okay but she's not anymore? Atleast until/if she resurrects.

By the way the player tag isn't proof of humanity.

[usagiP]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Okay but she's not anymore? Atleast until/if she resurrects.

So we harnessed the power of the moon, didn't we？

In the game, during a full moon, the ghosts in the tombstones will emerge. I believe the moon has a special influence on ghosts.

[Mysterious box]

Just now, usagiP said:

So we harnessed the power of the moon, didn't we？

In the game, during a full moon, the ghosts in the tombstones will emerge. I believe the moon has a special influence on ghosts.

This applies to merms, spiders, and Bernie himself.