Yet another post with more Wendy suggestions

[Ridepod]

I think Wendy's skill tree is in a much better spot than when she started but it still has a quite bit to go. When 20 evil petals were required for the floral shroud it made the gravestones a lot more relevant but now they're just kinda there. So here are some of my ideas to tweak/balance current Wendy, with my proposed significant changes to skills outlined in red and new in green:

Red changes, from left to right:

Picnic Casket: Wigfrid's skill tree set the precedent of the character's item container being a single independent point that doesn't serve as a prereq for anything, and I would like for that to continue here. Ideally the container would be baked into the character without needing to use a point since it becomes wasted the moment you craft the item, but whatever. I would also love for an extra slot like below dedicated for mourning glories -- the new butterfly revival encourages you to carry glories now but it begins to bloat Wendy's inventory with Abby's flower, casket, glories, and butterflies / butterfly wings.

 

Blessed Sisturn IV: I think Wendy has a very good amount of potential skills to allocate points for as is, so I don't think any should be removed without being replaced. However, I don't find the 4 points required for this skill to be worth it. So in order to differentiate from Blessed Sisturn III more and be unique, I'm suggesting that this skill allows the sisturn to now hold lune blossoms and evil petals. My current idea is for Abigail to get additional armor % against lunar or shadow aligned for each slot holding a lune blossom or evil petal, respectively, for the last sisturn she's rested at. Abby lost any kind of armor with the flower shroud's removal (although its still listed in free crafting) so this is an alternative without encroaching on that Wanda-esque gameplay they mentioned.

Graves By Wendy: I find people saying this skill isn't worth it since there's more than enough graves present in a given world and I'm inclined to agree. So it definitely needs more, especially with how useless evil petals are without the floral shroud. Anyway, my suggestion is for this perk to both allow Wendy to craft more gravestones and make gravestones she decorates grow lune blossoms or evil petals depending on the turf, like so:

However, this would cause the "dark gardens" aspect of the first gravestone skill to be moved to the third, making decorated gravestones just spawn normal flowers. But I think that's fine since currently dark petals are only used for making gravestones.

Team Spirit I: This ability sucks right now and requires too much maintenance and navigating to even use. It is also not very visibly distinct. It needs a pretty significant revision. Fitzee has suggested a hotkey to escape or repeat commands but I don't think any character has received something like that before (Could be wrong.). Without that I think it needs a considerable buff. I would find more use out of it if it was turned into something like a parry instead of a dodge. Ideally, Abigail would do the a near-instant variation of the unsummon/haunt animation on activation. She would be invisible/transparent and immune to damage for a brief moment but if she is hit while immune she immediately retaliates with an attack and probably some i-frames as well. Her damage could be based on the amount she would have received or a multiplier of her base damage, iunno.

 

My ideas for new perks, in green, from top to bottom:

Lunar Sisterhood IV: One of Wendy's biggest flaws is dealing with nightmares since Abby doesn't do squat. Really just motivates you to get on top of a beefalo and never come down. Anyway, this perk would simply allow gestalt Abby to deal damage to terrorbeaks, crawling horrors, and lurking nightmares, same as the usual gestalts. I feel gestalt Abby does enough damage that the teleporting they do when hit should stay but I could see that being changed for her. Usually, I wouldn't think this kinda of perk is necessary since its just one of the downsides of playing Wendy but jesus christ lurking nightmares have 850 HP

Shadow Sisterhood IV: Kinda forced myself to come up with this as a parallel to the previous perk, and suggesting "shadow Abby becomes super good at killing brightshades" isn't really a good idea, so how about this: shadow Abby's vex gives an additional effect of giving Wendy +10 planar damage when using anything that deals planar damage. Lunar potion gives Abby boosted planar damage and shadow potion increases vex damage, so this wouldn't tread on the benefits of those since the perk would be for Wendy.

 

 

Anyway thats what I've got. Trying to keep realistic expectations here. I think additional stuff needs balancing (gestalt, butterfly revival, etc) but this is what I'd like to see primarily, especially with how quickly the gravestone line became redundant.

Also why don't the skills just for crafting new items have that background thingy that all the previous skill trees have it was bugging me while making this

 

[Peasant]

looks makes sense

[WenericMember]

Really well rounded and fun set of changes. My only issue is lune blossoms and evil dlowers still dont add a lot of value. They said they wanted the graves skills to allow wendy to create a safe space,  so od rather they expand on that.

[Yifei_]

The idea of generating different flowers based on different turfs is fantastic, I love it.

[Lee lol]

16 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

我的热键建议是一个替代的操作按钮提示符（类似于 Wortox 的 Soul Hop），以最后选择的命令命名;按下时，它会立即激活命令，而无需打开技能轮盘，如果是必须先瞄准的命令，则会将您置于“瞄准模式”。

这就是我向您提到热键功能时所指的。这也不是 Wendy 独有的功能，而是其他所有有技能的幸存者都可以做的事情（Willow、Winnona、Maxwell 等），前提是他们的特殊物品在他们的库存中。无论如何，Klei 都需要考虑实现这一点，因为减少对轮盘菜单的摸索会很受欢迎，尤其是在技能树变得更加复杂的情况下。

另外，我认为招架系统在我看来要求太高了。

I think it makes team spirit skills more convenient, but I don't know how to achieve this, because I don't use a controller but a keyboard, and now, with the left mouse button Abigail Flower is to pick it up and the right button is to call out the roulette; There doesn't seem to be a superfluous key to provide the command you are talking about, unless we use the middle button, but the operation is too awkward, although I believe there will be a suitable key on the controller.

[Lee lol]

3 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

Isn't the alternate action button right-click for mouse and keyboard? Because that's what it is for Wortox soul-hopping, so you'd simply apply the same logic for Wendy and other skill wheel survivors.

Yes, but now the right click is to call out the wheel. This means that the mouse player needs to click twice to execute a command, right-clicking to call out the wheel and left-clicking on the command to be executed. If we use the right click to execute the command you mentioned, there will be no extra keys to call out the wheel. So I came up with a way to  call up the wheel : it will appear  automatically when the mouse pointer is hovering over Abigail's Flower in the inventory, so that you only need to left-click on the corresponding command.

[DegenerateFurry]

All of these sound like good suggestions, if you ask me. 

[Lee lol]

11 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

右键单击 Abigail's Flower 专门打开命令轮，你的意思是？因为我的热键建议仅在您没有右键单击任何内容，或者当您在光标中按住任何内容时才可用，同样，我非常确定这就是 Wortox 的灵魂跳跃功能。

Yes, for mouse players right-click to open the wheel, and for Vortox, right-click to soul hop (right-click on the map to jump, right-click souls to eat souls)

[HowlVoid]

You said the gravestones don't make a lot of sense/ arnt useful

But then created a solution for a problem that doesn't exist with lunar sisterhood.

The whole point of graves is to create Wendy nightmare fuel from dark petals. While also not removing the downside of nightmares so as to not simplify the character further. 

People arnt reading enough into the intention of the skills and are just inserting random power and abilities to deal with everything and anything.

[Ridepod]

24 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

You said the gravestones don't make a lot of sense/ arnt useful

But then created a solution for a problem that doesn't exist with lunar sisterhood.

The whole point of graves is to create Wendy nightmare fuel from dark petals. While also not removing the downside of nightmares so as to not simplify the character further. 

People arnt reading enough into the intention of the skills and are just inserting random power and abilities to deal with everything and anything.

The graves were added to make a reliable source of evil petals (and pipspooks/ghosts) for Wendys previous crafts like the flower shroud which no longer exist. As of right now the only skill tree item crafted with dark petals are more gravestones. And farming tumbleweeds is probably a more efficient way to produce any nfuel than this.

My idea for sisturn IV and graves by wendy would hopefully mesh but Im not a game dev so 

 

 

Honestly I dont think Wendy needs help killing crawling horrors and terrorbeaks but killing lurking nightmares is a colossal chore. I dread encountering them because they're not fun. Just giant HP sponges.

[HowlVoid]

Just now, Ridepod said:

The graves were added to make a reliable source of evil petals (and pipspooks/ghosts) for Wendys previous crafts like the flower shroud which no longer exist. As of right now the only skill tree item crafted with dark petals are more gravestones. And farming tumbleweeds is probably a more efficient way to produce any nfuel than this.

My idea for sisturn IV and graves by wendy would hopefully mesh but Im not a game dev so 

Nope, it was said in stream that one of the reason for the graves was both for the fuel AND the flower shroud. Then in update notes it was toned down because the shroud was removed. 

If you think it's not enough then it's because it may serve better as something that contributes to fuel farming and isn't meant to replace it.

[BudinDePan]

How is the spawnpoint of pispook, who is usefull only for Wendy, not relevante for Wendy?

[Ridepod]

9 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Nope, it was said in stream that one of the reason for the graves was both for the fuel AND the flower shroud. Then in update notes it was toned down because the shroud was removed. 

If you think it's not enough then it's because it may serve better as something that contributes to fuel farming and isn't meant to replace it.

Nothing in Wendys skill tree kit benefits from farming fuel. Im not seeing any reasons that graves should even serve as a source of nfuel

7 minutes ago, BudinDePan said:

How is the spawnpoint of pispook, who is usefull only for Wendy, not relevante for Wendy?

If you have graves 2 you dont need graves 3 at all in its current iteration since the world has more than enough graves to relocate pipspooks nearby your base

[BudinDePan]

And ruins have enough gems and yet Wilson can transmite them, merms can be hand feed and yet wurt have a bowl to feed merms (Tho it have other uses i Guess), campfires firepits scales furnances all give heat and yet winona can give heat in her spotlights. Wendy crafting graves is well related to her.

[Ridepod]

1 minute ago, BudinDePan said:

And ruins have enough gems and yet Wilson can transmite them, merms can be hand feed and yet wurt have a bowl to feed merms (Tho it have other uses i Guess), campfires firepits scales furnances all give heat and yet winona can give heat in her spotlights. Wendy crafting graves is well related to her.

There might be a language barrier because I agree with you completely. But theres no reason to waste the skill point on JUST making graves if the world provides more than enough at generation, it should do something else in addition.

[HowlVoid]

1 minute ago, Ridepod said:

Nothing in Wendys skill tree kit benefits from farming fuel. Im not seeing any reasons that graves should even serve as a source of nfuel

Then why does she need protection from nightmares? She can easily avoid them with a top hat negating dawn and most of the nights sanity drain. 

Add a tam-o-shanter and the threat is completely gone.

There isnt a reason to remove a weakness and make that character less complex.

There are even skills to lower the sanity drain from bosses. It's obvious that outright removing a weakness is not ideal.

1 minute ago, Ridepod said:

If you have graves 2 you dont need graves 3 at all in its current iteration since the world has more than enough graves to get pipspooks nearby your base

This isnt directed towards me but it's kinda obvious this is a failsafe for people logging off with grave stones or just plain counter measure to griefers.

Again, there is a lot of thought that goes into these skills that people are just not seeing. It's similar to the beginning knee jerk reaction to Wendy purifying evil flowers into normal ones. "This is irrelevant to wendy", "why does wendy need this", "useless skill". It's to ensure a cycle of decorating the graves and purifying the evil flowers from the graves to decorate the graves again. 

Its really just more nuanced that people give it credit.

[BudinDePan]

8 minutes ago, Ridepod said:

There might be a language barrier because I agree with you completely. But theres no reason to waste the skill point on JUST making graves if the world provides more than enough at generation, it should do something else in addition.

Maybe, i'm not native English neither. What i meant is it's ok to have some skill that don't get much use besides Niche situations, everyone have those skills. Even better if it's at the end of a path so it's easily skipable

[Ridepod]

15 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Then why does she need protection from nightmares? 

 

2 hours ago, Ridepod said:

Usually, I wouldn't think this kinda of perk is necessary since its just one of the downsides of playing Wendy but jesus christ lurking nightmares have 850 HP

Basically just lurking nightmares. Miserable to fight (in a not fun way) with 0.75 dmg and constant teleporting a screen away

[Yifei_]

4 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Add a tam-o-shanter and the threat is completely gone.

Nightmare creatures in the ruins ignore your sanity. It is almost impossible and a great waste of time to completely avoid confrontation with Nightmare Creatures while cleaning up the Ruins.

[Evelo]

2 hours ago, Ridepod said:

Picnic Casket: Wigfrid's skill tree set the precedent of the character's item container being a single independent point that doesn't serve as a prereq for anything, and I would like for that to continue here.

Why not make it baseline? Wigfrid's container really deserves to be baseline. It's quite stupid to put such an important piece of equipment behind a point. It isn't fun or thrilling or even exciting, it is just a basic container that serves as a much needed quality of life.

2 hours ago, Ridepod said:

I'm suggesting that this skill allows the sisturn to now hold lune blossoms and evil petals.

Glad someone took this idea of mine. I was quite proud of it. Though I am sure many people have interdependently thought of it themselves so yknow there's that.

2 hours ago, Ridepod said:

Anyway, my suggestion is for this perk to both allow Wendy to craft more gravestones and make gravestones she plants grow lune blossoms or evil petals depending on the turf, like so:

Awesome idea.

2 hours ago, Ridepod said:

One of Wendy's biggest flaws is dealing with nightmares since Abby doesn't do squat.

Downsides are good! Best to keep some in so players aren't handed everything on a silver platter imo.

That's my feedback on your suggestions. Not much but im tired. Have a good night.

1 minute ago, Yifei_ said:

Nightmare creatures in the ruins ignore your sanity. It is almost impossible and a great waste of time to completely avoid confrontation with Nightmare Creatures while cleaning up the Ruins.

True, Beefalo and Glass Swords are excellent ways to combat the countless onslaught of Shadow Creatures. Abby can deal with the Chess Pieces.

[Jakepeng99]

2 hours ago, Ridepod said:

Picnic Casket: Wigfrid's skill tree set the precedent of the character's item container being a single independent point that doesn't serve as a prereq for anything, and I would like for that to continue here. Ideally the container would be baked into the character without needing to use a point since it becomes wasted the moment you craft the item, but whatever. I would also love for an extra slot like below dedicated for mourning glories -- the new butterfly revival encourages you to carry glories now but it begins to bloat Wendy's inventory with Abby's flower, casket, glories, and butterflies / butterfly wings.

This turns it into a switch skill.

[Yifei_]

8 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

This isnt directed towards me but it's kinda obvious this is a failsafe for people logging off with grave stones or just plain counter measure to griefers.

Do you think it's worth spending a skill point just to counter the behavior of griefers? The ability to take gravestones offline is also one of the issues with the skill tree, which further indicates that the skill tree needs to be revised.
 

[Ridepod]

 

7 minutes ago, BudinDePan said:

Maybe, i'm not native English neither. What i meant is it's ok to have some skill that don't get much use besides Niche situations, everyone have those skills. Even better if it's at the end of a path so it's easily skipable

I think the end of path ones shouldnt be easily skippable -- they should be the respective climax of their skill line since theyre locked behind other skills

[HowlVoid]

5 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

Nightmare creatures in the ruins ignore your sanity. It is almost impossible and a great waste of time to completely avoid confrontation with Nightmare Creatures while cleaning up the Ruins.

There are no fissures directly in the ruins. However if one does spawn from a statue or one follows you from a fissure Wendy now has dark vision. There isnt a substantial difference between 2-3 more attacks.

What's more where even a character with normal or more attack magnitude may be overwhelmed by both nightmares and Clockwork, both sisters can work together to minimize the chaos.

So trivilizing the interaction of both sister working together is not appropriate for her gameplay.

10 minutes ago, Ridepod said:

 

Basically just lurking nightmares

And if you do want to trivialize it, just ride a beefalo.

[Peasant]

15 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Again, there is a lot of thought that goes into these skills that people are just not seeing. It's similar to the beginning knee jerk reaction to Wendy purifying evil flowers into normal ones. "This is irrelevant to wendy", "why does wendy need this", "useless skill". It's to ensure a cycle of decorating the graves and purifying the evil flowers from the graves to decorate the graves again. 

Bro…I don't know how to put this, but…the tomb skill for dark flowers can't ensure a cycle. It takes 3 normal petals to create 2 dark petals, plus the time it takes for the dark flowers to grow.

Besides…The normal petal is one of the most easily obtained items of the game, while dark petals are more rare, spending mourning glorys just for turning rare items into common ones doesn't make sense