Abigail isnt supposed to facetank.

[Lee lol]

2 minutes ago, mima_ said:

lol u think i dont get that ? abi and bernie is the same already. they are bad for bosses fight.
they have no survivability in fight .
with gesalt/ shadow abigail she deal lots more damage and can be controlled better than deploying bernie.

she is already way better than bernie in boss fight why compare ? 

all whine about abigail nerf is just player that lazy enough to do boss fight them self want a killing machine so they can afk and watch the fight done 

You actually set a non-existent target for yourself. No one is comparing Abby and Bernie, including me and sterroa. Only you. It is meaningless to compare them, because their functional positioning is different. Bernie is a tank that attracts hatred, while gest is a sniper who assists in combat. If you don't understand the design logic of gestalt and Shadow Abi, then I can tell you. The gestalt sacrificed the aoe output, and it took ten days to change the form in exchange for higher monomer damage and kite ability. Now they have weakened the kite and damage ability of the gestalt, and its dps is lower than that of Shadow Abi and ordinary Abi. This means that no one will choose geseta compared with Shadow Abi. It turned out to be a terrible design. And you don't care about these. You just comment on things you don't know and label others... You think we want to hang up and let Abigal automatically beat the boss. We just want to make the design of the Gestalt more reasonable. Please stop labeling others at will.

 

If you have to compare Aby and Bernie, okay. Bernie has plane entity resistance, but Aby doesn't. Bernie has 2,000 health, and Abi needs to hang up at the base for 5 minutes to get 600 fake health and can't recover. These are all Abi's shortcomings. As for what you said, it caused more damage... Willow can also easily cause more damage, and aoe.

[mima_]

6 minutes ago, Lee lol said:

You think we want to hang up and let Abigal automatically beat the boss.

but thats all gesalt abigail does best before the nerf.
i believe the damage is still can be better like in middle but i dont think invincibility is good for her.
i find her post about seeing how abigail vs mutated bearger that it got hit while u didnt even use any strategy to keep her safe. u can use attack command to draw her to safe spots ater her draw agro for example. or how tranishedmax use their strategy by summon unsummoning abigail. if u just want to keep abigail floating and survive on her own i dont think its a good thing.
its about gameplay, giving abigail back her invincibility is just how abigail wreck antlion cus spikes cant hurt her .. boring. staying back and seeing ur sister deal more damage than wolfgang finish fight for u is just not fun isnt it ? 
 

[Lee lol]

2 minutes ago, mima_ said:

但这就是 Gesalt Abigail 在 NERF 之前做得最好的全部。
我相信伤害仍然可以像在中间一样更好，但我不认为无敌对她有好处。
我找到她的帖子，关于看到 Abigail vs Mutated Bearger 是如何被击中的，而你甚至没有使用任何策略来保护她的安全。例如，您可以使用攻击命令将她吸引到安全的地方，例如，在她的 Draw Agro 之前。或者 TranishedMax 如何通过召唤不召唤的 Abigail 来使用他们的策略。如果你只想让 Abigail 漂浮并独自生存，我认为这不是一件好事。
这是关于游戏玩法的，让阿比盖尔重新获得她的无敌状态就像阿比盖尔如何破坏蚁狮因为尖刺无法伤害她一样..无聊的。待在后面，看到你姐姐造成的伤害比 Wolfgang Finish For You Finish For You 并不好玩，不是吗？
 

Yes, I just want to say that Gestalt is over-nerfed. Her attacks are now five times higher than normal Abi, but her attack speed is also five times lower, her damage is basically the same, she loses AOE, and she doesn't have any better survivability, because they make Gestalt stop in place for a second after attacking, which I think is even nerfed compared to normal Abi. I guess it would be better to raise the damage a little bit or increase her flexibility. Regarding the invincibility frame, I guess those guys used a completely different kind of gameplay, Wendy the summoner, and we wouldn't choose that way of playing, what we wanted was to fight with Abigail. If you have a better opinion on Gestalt, please feel free to bring it up.

[mima_]

4 minutes ago, Lee lol said:

she doesn't have any better survivability

she does have it by help of wendy using the team spirits commands

[Lee lol]

13 minutes ago, mima_ said:

she does have it by help of wendy using the team spirits commands

Yes but regualar abi could do it too, so……i can't see the advantage of gestalt for now,  why i should choose this form rather than shadow, even normal abi has the same dps as gestault and it has aoe

[mima_]

14 minutes ago, Lee lol said:

i can't see the advantage of gestalt for now

when dashing out using attack at she deal 100 damage in gesalt form 

[Tarnishedmax]

1 hour ago, mima_ said:

but thats all gesalt abigail does best before the nerf.
i believe the damage is still can be better like in middle but i dont think invincibility is good for her.
i find her post about seeing how abigail vs mutated bearger that it got hit while u didnt even use any strategy to keep her safe. u can use attack command to draw her to safe spots ater her draw agro for example. or how tranishedmax use their strategy by summon unsummoning abigail. if u just want to keep abigail floating and survive on her own i dont think its a good thing.
its about gameplay, giving abigail back her invincibility is just how abigail wreck antlion cus spikes cant hurt her .. boring. staying back and seeing ur sister deal more damage than wolfgang finish fight for u is just not fun isnt it ? 
 

While i agree that gestalt Abby being unkillable and soloing bosses was genuinely boring and insanely broken i just dont think they should have nerfed her damage, the issue was never her damage but rather the fact that she was unkillable, now that she can actually get killed her damage being high is NOT an issue anymore

[WenericMember]

43 minutes ago, Lee lol said:

Yes but regualar abi could do it too, so……i can't see the advantage of gestalt for now,  why i should choose this form rather than shadow, even normal abi has the same dps as gestault and it has aoe

Thats an issue with balance, not design though. Gesalt Abbis evasiness is just undertuned. Be patient and it will be corrected.

[Lee lol]

31 minutes ago, mima_ said:

when dashing out using attack at she deal 100 damage in gesalt form 

If you give abi a lunar potion, yes. Otherwise it's 40, the same as normal abi

[mima_]

1 minute ago, Lee lol said:

the same as normal abi

i believe normal abi deal 15 when dashing. but yeh i might miss remembering the exact number but it is dealing more damage when dashing (which give her aoe damage on every mobs her passes through 

lmao, im going to leave here cus this a bit oot. 
invincibility on abigail is no no 
thats all bye
 

[Lee lol]

Just now, mima_ said:

i believe normal abi deal 15 when dashing. but yeh i might miss remembering the exact number but it is dealing more damage when dashing (which give her aoe damage on every mobs her passes through 

i didn't make it clear, now gestault only have 15 when dashing, 40 in evening. Just check in the beta

[Picklesaurus]

2 hours ago, Lee lol said:

Yes, I just want to say that Gestalt is over-nerfed. Her attacks are now five times higher than normal Abi, but her attack speed is also five times lower, her damage is basically the same, she loses AOE, and she doesn't have any better survivability, because they make Gestalt stop in place for a second after attacking, which I think is even nerfed compared to normal Abi.

Gestalt Abi attack speed is not  5 times slower, it attacks once every 3,5 seconds for x5 the damage, normal abi attacks 1 time per second, making Gestalt Abi DPS 42,8% higher than normal Abigail. That said, I agree Gestalt Abi needs to have immuinty during her attack back but her damage is good, especially since she can keep vex up for the player all the time now, she just needs a better time kiting aoe damage, but it should still be required some player input, like having to using her dodge skill sometimes during bosses that deal AOE damage.

[Lee lol]

6 minutes ago, Picklesaurus said:

Gestalt Abi attack speed is not  5 times slower, it attacks once every 3,5 seconds for x5 the damage, normal abi attacks 1 time per second, making Gestalt Abi DPS 42,8% higher than normal Abigail. That said, I agree Gestalt Abi needs to have immuinty during her attack back but her damage is good, especially since she can keep vex up for the player all the time now, she just needs a better time kiting aoe damage, but it should still be required some player input, like having to using her dodge skill sometimes during bosses that deal AOE damage.

A video posted in 11.22 showed that,

Wendy+hambat+normal Abigail=roughly 200dps

Wendy+hambat+lunar Abigail=roughly 212dps

You could check it in this video but i donno if it is correct

【温蒂月亮亲和dps测试-哔哩哔哩】 https://b23.tv/0rHI7mr

[Koomin]

1 hour ago, Lee lol said:

A video posted in 11.22 showed that,

Wendy+hambat+normal Abigail=roughly 200dps

Wendy+hambat+lunar Abigail=roughly 212dps

You could check it in this video but i donno if it is correct

【温蒂月亮亲和dps测试-哔哩哔哩】 https://b23.tv/0rHI7mr

This issue here is that this is the old patch where petal debuff duration runs out before Abigail attacks again.  You can see the ham bat damage drop.  Debuff duration was increased in the most recent patch, which adds a lot to dps, and makes the numbers Picklesaurus references more accurate.

[Picklesaurus]

2 hours ago, Lee lol said:

A video posted in 11.22 showed that,

Wendy+hambat+normal Abigail=roughly 200dps

Wendy+hambat+lunar Abigail=roughly 212dps

You could check it in this video but i donno if it is correct

【温蒂月亮亲和dps测试-哔哩哔哩】 https://b23.tv/0rHI7mr

Current beta patch 09/12/2024

Normal Abigail DPS: 40 
Normal Abigail + Hambat no animation canceling DPS ≈ 191
 

Gestalt Abigail DPS ≈ 66
Gestalt Abigail + Hambat no animation canceling ≈ 195 sometimes jumping up to ≈ 217

Meaning they reduced Gestalt Abigail damage and compesated it by making her attack more often and increasing her vex duration which makes Wendy + Gestalt Abigail damage virtualy the same before and after Gestalt Abigail damage reduction. So the damage is still good and Gestalt Abigail still has better DPS than normal abigail, saying

5 hours ago, Lee lol said:

Her attacks are now five times higher than normal Abi, but her attack speed is also five times lower, her damage is basically the same

Is not true, its damage is still better than normal Abigail, and nerfed Gestalt Abigail kept the same DPS as 400 damage Abigail when Wendy is also attacking the target because she is now attacking more often and leaving her vex for longer, meaning her DPS is not the problem, the problem is her survivability to AOE and how little agency/control the player has on making Gestalt Abigail dodge some of those AOE attacks. 

1 hour ago, Koomin said:

This issue here is that this is the old patch where petal debuff duration runs out before Abigail attacks again.  You can see the ham bat damage drop.  Debuff duration was increased in the most recent patch, which adds a lot to dps, and makes the numbers Picklesaurus references more accurate.

Yes, they also increased how often Gestalt Abigail attacks, they talked about it in their last stream but didnt make notes on it since it was part of "Increased petal debuff duration", they increased the petal debuff duration and made Gestalt Abigail Attack more often, in this video from the old patch ( https://b23.tv/0rHI7mr ) you can use your stopwatch/ timer fuction in your smartphone and check that Gestalt Abigail was attacking  about  every 4,5 seconds, in my video she is attacking  about every 3,5 seconds which is a ≈  23% reduction on the time it takes for her to attack which can also be seen as a 30% increase on her attack speed. ( 4,5 x 0,77 ≈ 3,5 or 1atk/4,5sec x 1,3 = 0,22 atk/1sec x 1,3 = 0,286 atk/1sec ≈ 1atk/ 3,5 sec )

[No_light]

9 hours ago, Tarnishedmax said:

这里的技能实际上对伤害产生了巨大的影响，Vex 伤害乘数每次击中都会增加更多的影响，使得 Wendy 可以对平面实体造成 100 次伤害！这确实是一个疯狂的数字，普通角色使用 3 级暗影大锤甚至无法达到这个伤害（如果你使用最高级别的大锤而不是镰刀，你每次击中的伤害甚至会超过 100），而阿比盖尔自己由于暗影阵营每次击中的伤害为 50（普通的艾比甚至不会达到 40），这让温蒂基本上造成了沃尔夫冈级别的伤害，在如此激烈的 Boss 战中节省整整一分钟确实是比其他所有人都有的巨大优势，因为这场战斗持续的时间越长，情况就会变得越糟，现在你实际上无法在这场战斗中使用阿比盖尔的技能和命令，但这是因为月亮熊怪的节奏非常快，误差范围非常小，这意味着我无法展示她真正的能力 o(╥﹏╥)o

我很想展示更多像她一样的战斗，在这些战斗中我实际上利用了命令，但遗憾的是记录和上传它们需要一些时间，我真的只是想展示即使在她最糟糕的对决中她仍然可以摧毁一切，但本质上是的，技能树在这场战斗中发挥了巨大的作用。

Oh! Yes, Shadow Abigail does have increased damage, but personally, I would probably rather not want these damage and want to see something new, after all, it looks like the damage has really increased now, but it doesn't seem to be any different from the previous Abigail.
Isn't it?

[Tarnishedmax]

18 minutes ago, No_light said:

Oh! Yes, Shadow Abigail does have increased damage, but personally, I would probably rather not want these damage and want to see something new, after all, it looks like the damage has really increased now, but it doesn't seem to be any different from the previous Abigail.
Isn't it?

There is not much you can do in terms of combat, specially with this specific boss which is extremely straightforward and fast paced, i think Wendy provides some insane number of utilities and just fun stuff outside combat scenarios, the video is only in response to the claim that Wendy is supposedly bad with rifts content and needs a combat buff when she really doesn’t need it. Its okay for the characters to have higher numbers when said numbers are not even the main focus of the skill tree. 80% of Wendy skill tree is not even combat related, which just makes me confused to these complaints, you guys want more damage and Wendy to fight rift content but when she is capable of doing so its suddenly a bad thing?? and then focusing on sillier/cute aspects of her (mourning glory generstion, potion effects, grave moving) is also bad apparently because it doesn’t solve the issue of her supposedly being bad at rifts, i just genuinely don’t understand what do you guys even want anymore. Like do you want her to have unique special animations and ultimate attacks or something?? This is dst, the combat is extremely simple, there is not much you can do for her that doesn’t involve completely throwing the design of the game out of the window

[Lee lol]

2 hours ago, Picklesaurus said:

当前测试版补丁 2024 年 9 月 12 日

普通阿比盖尔 DPS：40
普通阿比盖尔 + Hambat 无动画取消 DPS ≈ 191
 

格式塔阿比盖尔 DPS ≈ 66
格式塔阿比盖尔 + Hambat 没有动画取消≈ 195 有时会跳到≈ 217

这意味着他们减少了格式塔阿比盖尔的伤害，并通过使她的攻击更频繁并增加她的恼鬼持续时间来应对它，这使得温蒂 + 格式塔阿比盖尔伤害减免前后几乎相同 阿比盖尔伤害减免。所以伤害仍然很好，格式塔阿比盖尔的 DPS 仍然比普通的阿比盖尔好，他说

不是真的，它的伤害仍然比正常的阿比盖尔好，并且削弱了格式塔的阿比盖尔保持了与 400 伤害阿比盖尔相同的 DPS，当温蒂也在攻击目标时，因为她现在攻击更频繁并且让她的烦恼停留的时间更长，这意味着她的 DPS 不是问题，问题是她对 AOE 的生存能力以及玩家在让格式塔阿比盖尔躲避一些 AOE 攻击方面的代理/控制力有多小。

是的，他们还增加了格式塔阿比盖尔攻击的频率，他们在上次直播中谈到了它，但没有做笔记，因为它是“增加花瓣减益持续时间”的一部分，他们增加了花瓣减益持续时间并使格式塔阿比盖尔攻击更频繁，在这个来自旧补丁的视频中（https://b23.tv/0rHI7mr）您可以使用智能手机中的秒表/计时器功能并检查格式塔阿比盖尔是否大约每 4,5 秒攻击一次， 在我的视频中，她大约每 3,5 秒攻击一次，这比她攻击所需的时间≈减少了 23%，这也可以看作是她的攻击速度增加了 30%。（ 4,5 x 0,77 ≈ 3,5 或 1atk/4,5 秒 x 1,3 = 0,22 攻击/1 秒 x 1,3 = 0,286 攻击/1 秒 ≈ 1atk/ 3,5 秒 ）

谢谢你的澄清。我同意格式塔的dps不是问题，我想现在格式塔的dps应该稍大于普通阿比盖尔，小于暗影阿比盖尔？那么现在格式塔的问题应该在于她的生存能力，她应该比暗影阿比盖尔有着好得多的生存能力，通过增加她的灵活性或者给她给她位面实体抵抗来实现这一点。

Thank you for the clarification. I agree that Gestalt's dps is not a problem, I guess now Gestalt should have a slightly larger dps than a normal Abigail and less than a Shadow Abigail? Now Gestalt's problem should be her survivability, she should have much better survivability than Shadow Abigail, either by increasing her flexibility or by giving her Dimensional Entity Resistance.

[Tarnishedmax]

21 minutes ago, No_light said:

but it doesn't seem to be any different from the previous Abigail.

Also im pretty sure that IS the intention for shadow side Abigail, it even used the original game mechanic of murdering something to spawn Abigail, shadow Abigail is made for players that love to play Wendy and enjoy her and don’t want her gameplay to brutally change, hence why it being a simple damage upgrade is actually a good thing, if you want something new go play with gestalt Abigail!!!!! she is very unique and fun, though i do agree they overnerfed her.

[Lee lol]

17 minutes ago, Tarnishedmax said:

There is not much you can do in terms of combat, specially with this specific boss which is extremely straightforward and fast paced, i think Wendy provides some insane number of utilities and just fun stuff outside combat scenarios, the video is only in response to the claim that Wendy is supposedly bad with rifts content and needs a combat buff when she really doesn’t need it. Its okay for the characters to have higher numbers when said numbers are not even the main focus of the skill tree. 80% of Wendy skill tree is not even combat related, which just makes me confused to these complaints, you guys want more damage and Wendy to fight rift content but when she is capable of doing so its suddenly a bad thing?? and then focusing on sillier/cute aspects of her (mourning glory generstion, potion effects, grave moving) is also bad apparently because it doesn’t solve the issue of her supposedly being bad at rifts, i just genuinely don’t understand what do you guys even want anymore. Like do you want her to have unique special animations and ultimate attacks or something?? This is dst, the combat is extremely simple, there is not much you can do for her that doesn’t involve completely throwing the design of the game out of the window

You're showing how Shadow Abi faces the Moon Bear. You showed skill, freeing Abi after taking down the Moon Bear and giving her maximum output time, keeping her completely safe; In more combat scenarios, you'll have to make sure Abi is present most of the time, and that's when her survival becomes a problem. On the other hand, if it is accepted that Shadow Abi means high damage high risk and Gestalt means lower damage and better survival, then Shadow Abi's survivability is not an issue, while Gestalt is. Because her DPS is neither lower than Shadow Abiy, nor is her survivability any better.
As for QoL, a good skill tree should include not only combat, but also Qol. Now that the designer has listened to us and refined the QoL, we will give him feedback accordingly.

[SilverSpoon]

I think nobody say "Abigail should be able facetank"

DST bosses are designed to have appropriate damage for "player tagged characters" who are "wearing appropriate armor", so MOB that take twice as much damage as players would take because she isn't player tagged, have AI that onslaughts at the boss, have limited direct control, and only have 600 HP are far behind in game inflation.

[No_light]

1 hour ago, Tarnishedmax said:

在战斗方面你能做的并不多，特别是对于这个非常简单和快节奏的特定boss，我认为温迪在战斗场景之外提供了一些实用程序和有趣的东西，该视频只是对温迪据称不擅长处理裂隙内容并需要战斗增益的说法的回应，而她实际上并不需要它。当所述数字甚至不是技能树的主要焦点时，角色拥有更高的数字是可以的。温迪技能树的 80% 甚至与战斗无关，这让我对这些抱怨感到困惑，你们想要更多的伤害和温迪来对抗裂隙内容，但是当她有能力这样做时，这突然就成了一件坏事？然后专注于她更愚蠢/可爱的方面（哀悼荣耀的生成、药水效果、坟墓移动）显然也很糟糕，因为它并不能解决她据称不擅长处理裂隙的问题，我真的不明白你们还想要什么。比如，你想让她拥有独特的特殊动画和终极攻击之类的吗？这是 dst，战斗非常简单，你能为她做的事情不多，除非完全颠覆游戏的设计

To be honest, I actually prefer that Abigail's battle with the boss has some room for error, in fact, regarding wendy's skill tree, I don't feel like it solves this problem, Abigail is still very vulnerable, as long as she makes a slight mistake, Abigail will die, and Wendy will become a Wes with a higher base value.

I don't think it's bad to increase Abigail's damage, and I wish she could do a little more damage. Like you said, the generation of mourning glory, potion effects, and grave movement may seem relatively new, but they don't really have much use. Makes me feel terrible.

Of course, I think the Abigail idea of the two camps is also good, but there are also drawbacks, I don't like Shadow Abigail very much, she Wendy needs Wendy to kill small animals to bring benefits, which makes me a little disgusted, and Moon Abigail, which requires a specific time and Moon Dial to be able to convert, which makes me feel that Abigail's conversion is too troublesome, so I don't like it very much.

[WenericMember]

1 minute ago, No_light said:

To be honest, I actually prefer that Abigail's battle with the boss has some room for error, in fact, regarding wendy's skill tree, I don't feel like it solves this problem, Abigail is still very vulnerable, as long as she makes a slight mistake, Abigail will die, and Wendy will become a Wes with a higher base value.

I don't think it's bad to increase Abigail's damage, and I wish she could do a little more damage. Like you said, the generation of mourning glory, potion effects, and grave movement may seem relatively new, but they don't really have much use. Makes me feel terrible.

Of course, I think the Abigail idea of the two camps is also good, but there are also drawbacks, I don't like Shadow Abigail very much, she Wendy needs Wendy to kill small animals to bring benefits, which makes me a little disgusted, and Moon Abigail, which requires a specific time and Moon Dial to be able to convert, which makes me feel that Abigail's conversion is too troublesome, so I don't like it very much.

How big is a "slight mistake?" Can't abigail get over 1500 hp with the bleased sisturn skills? Any difficulty with that is with Abbys mobility tools or the skills qol.

Also, consider the second potion of the blessed siturn line, which can get Abby back to full in under a minute.

[No_light]

7 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

“轻微失误”有多大？阿比盖尔难道不能凭借 bleased sisturn 技能获得超过 1500 hp 吗？任何困难都与 Abbys 的移动工具或技能 qol 有关。

另外，考虑一下受祝福的 Siturn 系列的第二剂药水，它可以在一分钟内让 Abby 恢复完全。

Regarding Abigail's ability to get 600 shield points during breaks, he needs Wendy to stay in the urn for 5 minutes, is it really worth it, and the boss only needs three or four hits to eliminate the 600 shields, is it really worth the time?
I knew that the potion would allow Abigail to go straight from level 1 to level 3, but the feeling this potion gave me was going to make me doubly troublesome. I hate this feeling, and when using these items, it is easy to be attacked by bosses. It would make me more susceptible to death.

[WenericMember]

7 minutes ago, No_light said:

Regarding Abigail's ability to get 600 shield points during breaks, he needs Wendy to stay in the urn for 5 minutes, is it really worth it, and the boss only needs three or four hits to eliminate the 600 shields, is it really worth the time?
I knew that the potion would allow Abigail to go straight from level 1 to level 3, but the feeling this potion gave me was going to make me doubly troublesome. I hate this feeling, and when using these items, it is easy to be attacked by bosses. It would make me more susceptible to death.

Ok thats valid, but thats a qol issue, not anything to do with the actual margin of error Wendy currently has.