wortox Wortox feedback after playing 12-6 build

[Dingle]

On my phone so apologies for typos.

I did an all naughty build with 3 points in Nice for the double hop, and a spare point to put into lunar or shadow later when I get to open a rift. Got to day 14 so far.

My thoughts:

1. Decoy is way better now! The change is pretty subtle, but its actually useful now. You can also open a jar to reset your echo, if you want to make a lot of decoys at the cost of souls. It's fun.

2. I'm growing to absolutely hate the knabsack because holding it switches you to the slow knab pickul on spacebar. Ive started to just use hambats again due to this. Pretty sad.

3. Naughty incination nerf is just enough where I probably wont bother ever getting it in multiplayer, as then I'd want the twintailed heart for teleports. This makes the only really good builds in multiplayer Neutral ones. Oh well.

4. Didn't get any points in Neutral. I may do another run with this but maybe not. I figure feedback it will stay as is at this point, so I'm not motivated to test it.

5. Bottle hunt is still a little annoying sometimes, but tolerable. It feels less bad to me than the giant "screw you" winonas teleporter parts quest can be if you're unlucky.

6. Moleworm goggles rule underground

7. I didn't bother with beefalo, won't anymore. Devs explicitly make it so you can't teleport on one, unless its by lazy explorer. Not sure why, will probably never get an answer.

Thsts all I can type so far, will add more later!

[asdsaax]

12 minutes ago, Dingle said:

7. I didn't bother with beefalo, won't anymore. Devs explicitly make it so you can't teleport on one, unless its by lazy explorer. Not sure why, will probably never get an answer.

Take it with grain of salt since I speak from memory BUT

I think I saw one of the devs say that "Soul hops on ornery beefalo would be so OP"
and personally? I think you deserve olympics award or psych ward visit if ur willing to animation cancel, soul hop and bother with ornery beefalo at the same time

I think fighting on foot as Wortox is just straight up better ROFL


EDIT 2:
I just want to complement my Pudgy beefalo that struggles with movement, when I struggle with sanity as Wortox but I have the mobility to make up for it's flaws...

[Dingle]

21 minutes ago, asdsaax said:

Take it with grain of salt since I speak from memory BUT

I think I saw one of the devs say that "Soul hops on ornery beefalo would be so OP"
and personally? I think you deserve olympics award or psych ward visit if ur willing to animation cancel, soul hop and bother with ornery beefalo at the same time

I think fighting on foot as Wortox is just straight up better ROFL


EDIT 2:
I just want to complement my Pudgy beefalo that struggles with movement, when I struggle with sanity as Wortox but I have the mobility to make up for it's flaws...

No, it was a player on the board guessing that was the reason. I severely doubt it would be considered OP by the devs when Wendy on an Ornery exists. They buffed her even more on a beefalo if you've seen it, shadow abby and ornery beef can kill celestial champion in like 3 minutes.

Pudgy beefalo as Wortox sounds great actually. If he could teleport on one, I mean.

[Dingle]

Some more thoughts before I forget!

8. Soul damage does not hurt spider nests. Sometimes I am disappointed by this, but then I remember that soul damage doesn't hurt Killer Bee Hives. I am very glad that I can't blow up my precious killer bee hives by mistake. It would be cool if I could specifically obliterate spider nests, though.

9. I got an early walking cane from a boon. Using that with the echo speed increase feels great.

10. Examining a twig instead of soul hopping can be annoying. Not a new problem, though.

11. I still wish there was some indicator a second or two before soul echo ended. On Wortox himself, maybe. Anywhere but having to stare at the inventory. Maybe some effect on the red echo trail denoting the speed boost? Maybe the visual could just end two seconds early.

I killed Ancient Guardian with no armor, thanks to the moleworm goggles. Decoy is fun in that fight for phase 2. When AG pops a decoy, he tends to jump at you immediately.

Did the moonstorm event. Still deciding on whether to go for fuelweaver or celestial first. I've been doing both prereqs on and off. Including jumping to Crabby Hermit during a day 5 rain to give her a parasol. The main reason I like Wortox are the teleports, I especially love the map teleport.

Will post more notes when I can play again. Probably not till Monday or Tuesday.

[Bumber64]

2 hours ago, Dingle said:

8. Soul damage does not hurt spider nests. Sometimes I am disappointed by this, but then I remember that soul damage doesn't hurt Killer Bee Hives. I am very glad that I can't blow up my precious killer bee hives by mistake. It would be cool if I could specifically obliterate spider nests, though.

It only hurts things with souls. Presumably ineffective against clockworks.

[ZeRoboButler]

6 hours ago, Dingle said:

3. Naughty inclination nerf is just enough where I probably wont bother ever getting it in multiplayer, as then I'd want the twin tailed heart for teleports. This makes the only really good builds in multiplayer Neutral ones. Oh well.

hang on a sec...

this one is a bit confusing since the devs stated it specifically is reduced for wortox but not others.

[Dingle]

7 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

It only hurts things with souls. Presumably ineffective against clockworks.

Interesting. Will check this out when I can. Could have sworn soul decoy damage worked on bishops.

7 hours ago, ZeRoboButler said:

hang on a sec...

this one is a bit confusing since the devs stated it specifically is reduced for wortox but not others.

The reduced healing isn't nearly as bad as the no sanity gain on dropped soul. Completelt not worth the "no sanity on eating a soul". By going neutral or nice, you can simply fill up both your hunger and sanity during mass soul farming. As naughty, you lose this in exchange for eating souls "with no penalty". In reality, it makes Wortox's already bad sanity management worse. At least early game.

Reposting myself from the update thread, as that just gets buried by Wendy players fast:

"Experienced Wortox players should just avoid Naughty at this point, as long as they're playing with others. Twintailed heart teleport pushes you towards 6-7 7-8 1 builds (1 for the lunar or shadow affinity) anyway.

I was right on the border of just ignoring the nice and naughty inclinations right before this. This just makes the decision really easy.

For solo, you just kind of stumble into naughty because theres no other builds that make sense"

[Echsrick]

honestly i feel like its not very good, i mean i belive eating souls is the worst thing you can do with souls, so why make that your bigger deal? there just needs something better to even want to go naughty, having extra time to remove souls from overloading is....fine? i mean you can avoid it by simply dropping souls as it happens, leaving you with absolutly no upsides, not goin eat souls, not gettin sanity from droped souls, and you heal less but somehow others dont get less heal from you wich makes not alot of sense realy

meanwhile nice just dont get attacked by pigs wich i feel like even if you kill everything its still better because you just dont get randomly annoyed by pigs when you dont want to

[Dingle]

2 hours ago, Echsrick said:

honestly i feel like its not very good, i mean i belive eating souls is the worst thing you can do with souls, so why make that your bigger deal? there just needs something better to even want to go naughty, having extra time to remove souls from overloading is....fine? i mean you can avoid it by simply dropping souls as it happens, leaving you with absolutly no upsides, not goin eat souls, not gettin sanity from droped souls, and you heal less but somehow others dont get less heal from you wich makes not alot of sense realy

meanwhile nice just dont get attacked by pigs wich i feel like even if you kill everything its still better because you just dont get randomly annoyed by pigs when you dont want to

Wortox players demanded that naughty get nerfed in that one thread, haha.

[Master_NiX]

21 hours ago, Dingle said:

I'm growing to absolutely hate the knabsack because holding it switches you to the slow knab pickul on spacebar.

This is exactly why I suggested a small right click ability similar to ones in Forge instead of space.

Right Click short leap that would collect anything around small aoe. That would allow you to collect items in aoe similar to the way we have now, and would capture small critters like rabbits, butterflies or birds.

8 hours ago, Dingle said:

As naughty, you lose this in exchange for eating souls "with no penalty". In reality, it makes Wortox's already bad sanity management worse. At least early game.

Sleeping Tent, as Naughty Wortox you can utilize those a lot more. Sure it's not as fast, but it is still quite reasonable exchange since souls dont drain your sanity anymore, and spiders are easy to farm. And would require you to spend less souls to get more sanity due to souls.

[Dingle]

16 minutes ago, Master_NiX said:

This is exactly why I suggested a small right click ability similar to ones in Forge instead of space.

Right Click short leap that would collect anything around small aoe. That would allow you to collect items in aoe similar to the way we have now, and would capture small critters like rabbits, butterflies or birds.

Sleeping Tent, as Naughty Wortox you can utilize those a lot more. Sure it's not as fast, but it is still quite reasonable exchange since souls dont drain your sanity anymore, and spiders are easy to farm. And would require you to spend less souls to get more sanity due to souls.

That sounds great for the right click. Though it does have a right click function even now for the autopickup. My complaint is that its also bound to default action spacebar.

Tents help, tam o shanter helps for sure. I still personally prefer Neutral for just dropping souls to get sanity back when farming. Worked great pre-beta with team support (like a wormwood making you bramble armor), works even better now because you can farm souls so much faster with no special equipment.

I wish I had more reason to go Nice or could figure out better builds for it, because the sanity management is incredible. You pretty much have to lose something really important with a Nice build, like soul damage or the lunar/shadow alignment.

[IAmAFurrz]

On 12/7/2024 at 7:38 AM, Dingle said:

2. I'm growing to absolutely hate the knabsack because holding it switches you to the slow knab pickul on spacebar. Ive started to just use hambats again due to this. Pretty sad.

it really should just knab on command with right click rather than automatically does it

 

On 12/7/2024 at 7:38 AM, Dingle said:

3. Naughty incination nerf is just enough where I probably wont bother ever getting it in multiplayer, as then I'd want the twintailed heart for teleports. This makes the only really good builds in multiplayer Neutral ones. Oh well.

not really. it heals others 20 still, only 15 for wortox. and that means you get to eat souls without sanity penalty, while others just have their own food (if you plan on farming and staying at base then yes, thats the intended use of nice side)

 

On 12/7/2024 at 7:38 AM, Dingle said:

4. Didn't get any points in Neutral. I may do another run with this but maybe not. I figure feedback it will stay as is at this point, so I'm not motivated to test it.

i saw a cool run by ameslarii, he utilized panflute for souls occassionally in caves (its a decent use for if you want to save time getting souls/in an area far from souls). they give a good amount per use (around 5-7?), and what ive heard from a friend whos rlly good he also even prefers it to decoy

On 12/7/2024 at 7:38 AM, Dingle said:

6. Moleworm goggles rule underground

always have

 

On 12/7/2024 at 7:38 AM, Dingle said:

7. I didn't bother with beefalo, won't anymore. Devs explicitly make it so you can't teleport on one, unless its by lazy explorer. Not sure why, will probably never get an answer.

magic and whatnot. not like you'd ever need one, QoL quite literally made him not need it even for heavy statue moving since you can jsut soul hop with it now

3 hours ago, Dingle said:

I wish I had more reason to go Nice or could figure out better builds for it, because the sanity management is incredible. You pretty much have to lose something really important with a Nice build, like soul damage or the lunar/shadow alignment.

early game (pre rift) if you go for reaper perk, just dont spend all points from the get go and have nice perk for the FW fight, the 5 sanity per soul is very useful for sanity gaining (i prefer it to sanity foods, clogs up inventory/takes time to get)

[Dingle]

22 minutes ago, IAmAFurrz said:

it really should just knab on command with right click rather than automatically does it

Yeah exactly.

22 minutes ago, IAmAFurrz said:

not really. it heals others 20 still, only 15 for wortox. and that means you get to eat souls without sanity penalty, while others just have their own food (if you plan on farming and staying at base then yes, thats the intended use of nice side)

I don't value the eating souls with no penalty much, vs being able to use them for sanity. You know what I'm talking about due to the rest of your post.

22 minutes ago, IAmAFurrz said:

i saw a cool run by ameslarii, he utilized panflute for souls occassionally in caves (its a decent use for if you want to save time getting souls/in an area far from souls). they give a good amount per use (around 5-7?), and what ive heard from a friend whos rlly good he also even prefers it to decoy

I saw that recently, speedrunners found a good use for it. A pan flute is basically worth like 60 to 100+ souls if you're willing to burn one to save time.

It's 6 souls each.

Does your friend use it when playing normally, or is he speedrunning, too?

22 minutes ago, IAmAFurrz said:

magic and whatnot. not like you'd ever need one, QoL quite literally made him not need it even for heavy statue moving since you can jsut soul hop with it now

Wortox is magic too.

I don't super need one due to the heavy statue teleport. I would have still liked it, though, as I tend to tame a beefalo on my characters, and have done so as pre beta Wortox for non-statue reasons. Looks like I'll stop doing so for Wortox. It's a bit disappointing.

22 minutes ago, IAmAFurrz said:

early game (pre rift) if you go for reaper perk, just dont spend all points from the get go and have nice perk for the FW fight, the 5 sanity per soul is very useful for sanity gaining (i prefer it to sanity foods, clogs up inventory/takes time to get)

Can you detail what your build looks like during FW then? Do you just skip soul damage in that case?

[IAmAFurrz]

1 hour ago, Dingle said:

Does your friend use it when playing normally, or is he speedrunning, too?

hes just generally good at the game, not sure if he speedruns.

 

1 hour ago, Dingle said:

Can you detail what your build looks like during FW then? Do you just skip soul damage in that case?

soul damage isnt essential for fw, decoy can be useful

i have 2nd echo, and map tp reduction. if you want to swap before fw then this doesnt matter, but if without swapping then this is the setup

[Dingle]

3 minutes ago, IAmAFurrz said:

hes just generally good at the game, not sure if he speedruns.

 

soul damage isnt essential for fw, decoy can be useful

i have 2nd echo, and map tp reduction. if you want to swap before fw then this doesnt matter, but if without swapping then this is the setup

Going without soul damage all that time seems harsh to me, as it would slow down your soul generation before fw. Am I reading this right, just dont get soul damage until the fw kill past day 21, and go straight for him?

I'll give neutral perks another chance!

[IAmAFurrz]

1 hour ago, Dingle said:

Going without soul damage all that time seems harsh to me, as it would slow down your soul generation before fw. Am I reading this right, just dont get soul damage until the fw kill past day 21, and go straight for him?

I'll give neutral perks another chance!

yea, go straight for his throat (and nightmare werepig). the soul pierce is most useful for daily soul gathering (and is good for bq/spider queen etc) but you can live without it. but again, that is if you go STRAIGHT for him rather than just play more calmly and take ur time lol, swapping is just fine

[Dingle]

On 12/6/2024 at 10:23 PM, Bumber64 said:

It only hurts things with souls. Presumably ineffective against clockworks.

You were right. Soul damage doesn't hit clockworks, and decoy doesn't seem to work either.

[Dingle]

I have been playing with the pan flute souls perk more. It still seems a little lackluster, but its less expensive than Soul Decoy 3, and it's nice in the very early game before you get a jar.

Souls Decoy 3 for the soul explosion is worse the more I think about it, so I could see grabbing the 2 pan flute perks, then respeccing at the celestial portal in late or mid game to get neither one of them.

Soul Decoy is better than it was, but the problems I see with it:

1. For the 3 points, it really doesn't speed up bee or spider farming much. I'd say its kind of nice for frogs and shadow monkeys, but again, 3 perk points. You could just get soul pierce 4 and do nearly as well.

2. Doesn't work at all on clockwork, which I'd probably want it the most for.

3. For distracting pig men, it doesnt last very long at all. You're probably just as well off teleporting away so things follow you, then teleporting back real quick.

4. It takes a soul to use it. Soul pierce is free as long as you kill something.

It's still fun, though. I'll fit it in solo worlds sometimes I think, just to make spider farming slightly easier. In multiplayer builds are tighter due to wanting 3 points in lifegiver for teammate teleports.

[Torpeda]

On 12/7/2024 at 1:38 AM, Dingle said:

2. I'm growing to absolutely hate the knabsack because holding it switches you to the slow knab pickul on spacebar. Ive started to just use hambats again due to this. Pretty sad.

Yeah, it should be just the right click, imo.

On 12/7/2024 at 1:38 AM, Dingle said:

3. Naughty incination nerf is just enough where I probably wont bother ever getting it in multiplayer, as then I'd want the twintailed heart for teleports. This makes the only really good builds in multiplayer Neutral ones. Oh well.

Lower amount of healing is kind of offset by Soul storage and easier time farming Souls thanks to Soul Pierce. You can also use Souls for hunger and use Tent for healing (niche).
I only play multiplayer and for me Naught Inclination is the better choice. If we need more healing for certain boss, I can just change perks at Celestial Portal.
The lower healing is not a problem and eating Souls without punishment adds some flexibility with what you can do with them and also saves resources for your teammates.

It's currently my most played build. I use Reverberation early on and Capricious Movement when I have more map revealed later on.

Neutral Perks seem good, but Naughty Inclination for me personally is too good to pass on. I think it's fine we've got different playstyles.

56 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Soul Decoy is better than it was, but the problems I see with it:

In my opinion it has different usage from Soul Pierce. Soul Pierce is for AoE and especially Soul farming. Soul Decoy is to "drop aggro" and to get back some of the damage that you would otherwise lose when dodging boss's attacks with Soul Hop.

[Dingle]

25 minutes ago, Torpeda said:

Yeah, it should be just the right click, imo.

Lower amount of healing is kind of offset by Soul storage and easier time farming Souls thanks to Soul Pierce. You can also use Souls for hunger and use Tent for healing (niche).
I only play multiplayer and for me Naught Inclination is the better choice. If we need more healing for certain boss, I can just change perks at Celestial Portal.
The lower healing is not a problem and eating Souls without punishment adds some flexibility with what you can do with them and also saves resources for your teammates.

It's currently my most played build. I use Reverberation early on and Capricious Movement when I have more map revealed later on.

Neutral Perks seem good, but Naughty Inclination for me personally is too good to pass on. I think it's fine we've got different playstyles.

In my opinion it has different usage from Soul Pierce. Soul Pierce is for AoE and especially Soul farming. Soul Decoy is to "drop aggro" and to get back some of the damage that you would otherwise lose when dodging boss's attacks with Soul Hop.

Thanks for the build! I've briefly tried a similar build but with piercing 3, soul decoy 3, and I didn't get Greed. If I go naughty I dont tend to get Greed anymore, but do otherwise.

Was also thinking of trying a build with neither Greed or Covetous, and getting Soul Decoy 3 and Piercing 4.

Swapping reverberation for capricious after early game makes a lot of sense.

My main problems with naughty builds is that I really like the sanity gain on dropped souls. Personal preference. That, and once you open a rift you probably want to spend a point in lunar or shadow, so you can't do 6 Nice 9 Naughty builds in that case.

[Soul7k]

naughty inclination just hasn't really stacked up in any of its iterations to the nice one. it rewards you for bad habits (soul management) and gives you better food at the cost of personal healing without even giving a dps bump(which it should) vs making things not hate you...at this current point I just stay neutral so i can get all the toys with none of the negatives

[Bumber64]

11 hours ago, Torpeda said:

Lower amount of healing is kind of offset by Soul storage and easier time farming Souls thanks to Soul Pierce. You can also use Souls for hunger and use Tent for healing (niche).

Covetous Collector is pointless post-rifts, though. Just trading it for Soul Decoy II would be pointless. If you go for anything else, you're pushed into neutral inclination but still have all the important naughty skills.

[Dingle]

40 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Covetous Collector is pointless post-rifts, though. Just trading it for Soul Decoy II would be pointless. If you go for anything else, you're pushed into neutral inclination but still have all the important naughty skills.

I'd consider it post rifts if it had some other function besides damage. I'd say "a little more damage would be nice", but that's not true because you're hitting for 80 damage at that point.

I really like getting/keeping Greed post rift, as it really helps with soul farming if I don't have overload protection. Soul pierce 4 remains great for farming convenience, though I need to try playing with just soul pierce 3 more. I have tried early game, but the extra point to get 4 makes a huge difference for spider farming.

[Dingle]

Last feedback post probably, as another hotfix is probably really soon.

I tried a Naughty build with no covetous, soul pierce 3, and decoy 3. I also had the flute toot for souls perk, the teleport ones, and Greed.

1. Did not miss covetous at all. The knabsack just gets outclassed by a hambat still, imo. Needs a different utility that is not a slow grab that messes up spacebar pickup.

2. I missed soul pierce 4 a LOT. It really does do a lot to speed up bee and spider farming. It's not an absolute must have, but...

3. ... soul decoy 3 still kind of sucks compared to just spending a point in soul pierce 4. The only situation I really used it for were shadow splumonkeys. It did let me recover from having 2 souls left, but I bet I could have just did it with soul pierce 4 also. Will do a build after the update with pierce 4 and decoy 1, but I still think decoy 3 is probably a bad pick for the point cost.

4. I'm liking the 6 souls on toot perk more. It's kind of weak, but its competing with other weak choices. It's nice when on the ocean or underground in the early game, when you don't have many jars.

I ended my last run at day 22, dying to the shadow trio. I have to practice the fight more as wortox, as you have to teleport pretty late to dodge them. I also got a bad map setup: lots of trees to block the teleport, no road.

I also worked a lot on crabby hermit, mostly just needed her house. I tried rushing her at first, but you need pretty absurd ocean luck to do this. I kept catching small fish over and over, and only found cookie cutters on day 16. I could have taken all those wasted days and just made sure the shadow trio fight was prepped for better.

Oh and

5. Overwhelming Greed plus Naughty inclination is really overkill. Its also super comfortable, though, and again, its fighting perks I consider pretty weak right now.

[Castiliano]

Very pertinent thoughts. I think what bothers me the most about this new version of Wortox is having to use two jars in the inventory for Knabsack to become strong. That second jar becomes completely useless and maybe it was the devs' idea to kill one more Wortox slot, but it still irritates me in a different way.

I don't believe this update will also end without some effective interaction with the Krampuses. All that happened was a quote in an item description.