Different devs, different game philosophy. But why is there also a difference in development/effort?

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, Fitzee said:

You see people bumping their own posts all the time, even ones that are off-topic; if Walter players are desperate, which appears to be the case, they are more than welcome to do the same. 

They have to compete with Wendy players doing this haha.

I've been trying to help by posting ideas to Walter threads, even though he's far from my main.

[Peasant]

1 minute ago, Fitzee said:

You see people bumping their own posts all the time, even ones that are off-topic; if Walter players are desperate, which appears to be the case, they are more than welcome to do the same. 

Each time I bump mine I dont get new comments…

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, Fitzee said:

You see people bumping their own posts all the time, even ones that are off-topic; if Walter players are desperate, which appears to be the case, they are more than welcome to do the same. 

It's not a case of bumping the Wendy topics were being spammed which I really hope people don't start doing for Walter as well.

[Mysterious box]

3 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

So what do you want, then? 

Ideally more attention to fixing Walter without taking the measures taken to give Wendy more attention.

[aidankocherhans]

1 minute ago, kroban said:

Im sorry dude but are you blind or what? Like please go look at the forum posts right now, literally the entire page is 95% WENDY posts asking for random crap, reload the page a couple times and look how Walter posts with a bunch of feedback that actually matters get buried IN MINUTES. I made a lot of posts about Walter precisely giving a **** ton of feedback, out of the 4k hours I have I spent like 3k as him, yet each time I made a post it gets buried almost instantaneously by Wendy posters. Same happens for people giving Wortox feedback.

Like honestly, go look at the forum pages and tell me wheres the "walter posts" bumping higher than Wendy's post about how she needs to be able to fly, swim, have a ghost world dedicated to her, or random crap like that.

I'm sure the devs working on Walter know how to filter through the posts

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, kroban said:

Im sorry dude but are you blind or what? Like please, PLEASE, go look at the forum page right now, literally the entire page is 95% WENDY posts asking for random crap, reload the page a couple times and look how Walter posts with a bunch of feedback that actually matters get buried IN MINUTES. I made a lot of posts about Walter precisely giving a **** ton of feedback, out of the 4k hours I have I spent like 3k as him, yet each time I made a post it gets buried almost instantaneously by Wendy posters. Same happens for people giving Wortox feedback.

Like honestly, go look at the forum pages and tell me wheres the "walter posts" bumping higher than Wendy's post about how she needs to be able to fly, swim, have a ghost world dedicated to her, or random crap like that.

Take a break I think your a bit too heated.

[Steorra]

15 minutes ago, Dingle said:

To be fair, the feedback is pretty hard to see. Gets buried fast.

It's getting a little better as Wendy feedback is slowing down a bit.

I'm surely that a healthy develop team has a mature team for collecting feedback, and it would ensure that every feedback won't be missing.

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, Fitzee said:

And your solution for this is to do nothing as a result?

We didn't do nothing we gave a lot of Walter feedback we shouldn't have to threaten the devs or spam the forum till all people see is Walter to give that feedback and I really don't want that to be standardized way to offer "feedback" because it leads to situations like this where people are doubting the devs intentions and even diminishes people who gave good feedback for Wendy while remaining civil.

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

I'm surely that a healthy develop team has a mature team for collecting feedback, and it would ensure that every feedback won't be missing.

Do the posters playing Walter have a way to do this? If not, it's pretty hard for them to discuss feedback with each other.

Case in point, I had no idea Kroban was a Walter player before this thread. I don't remember seeing his walter feedback at all.

7 minutes ago, kroban said:

Im sorry dude but are you blind or what? Like please, PLEASE, go look at the forum page right now, literally the entire page is 95% WENDY posts asking for random crap, reload the page a couple times and look how Walter posts with a bunch of feedback that actually matters get buried IN MINUTES. I made a lot of posts about Walter precisely giving a **** ton of feedback, out of the 4k hours I have I spent like 3k as him, yet each time I made a post it gets buried almost instantaneously by Wendy posters. And same happens for people that I can see main him and want to make a post with lots of feedback to help the devs. And this also happens with Wortox post too.

Like honestly, go look at the forum pages and tell me wheres the "walter posts" bumping higher than Wendy's post about how she needs to be able to fly, swim, have a ghost world dedicated to her, or random crap like that.

 

[Steorra]

13 minutes ago, kroban said:

Im sorry dude but are you blind or what? Like please, PLEASE, go look at the forum page right now, literally the entire page is 95% WENDY posts asking for random crap, reload the page a couple times and look how Walter posts with a bunch of feedback that actually matters get buried IN MINUTES. I made a lot of posts about Walter precisely giving a **** ton of feedback, out of the 4k hours I have I spent like 3k as him, yet each time I made a post it gets buried almost instantaneously by Wendy posters. And same happens for people that I can see main him and want to make a post with lots of feedback to help the devs. And this also happens with Wortox post too.

Like honestly, go look at the forum pages and tell me wheres the "walter posts" bumping higher than Wendy's post about how she needs to be able to fly, swim, have a ghost world dedicated to her, or random crap like that.

Are you start to questioning that if our devs team have no mature feedback collecting team which should collect all voices here everyday?

5 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Do the posters playing Walter have a way to do this? If not, it's pretty hard for them to discuss feedback with each other.

Case in point, I had no idea Kroban was a Walter player before this thread. I don't remember seeing his walter feedback at all.

 

I guess it's a good idea to tell forum moderators to give "Wendy" "Walter" "Wortox" tag for a necessary choice before every new post for this beta period, additionaly to make a tag fliter for forum would be work.

And this would be more meaningful than complaining at a randomly scapegoat.

[Mysterious box]

Also to be fair to the devs it's not like they've been ignoring Walter feedback most of the changes that happen to Walter since the beta started came from feedback.

[Echsrick]

14 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I'm surely that a healthy develop team has a mature team for collecting feedback, and it would ensure that every feedback won't be missing.

i dont know, i belive i gave good suggestions about wortox knapsack, but here i am seemingly not taken into consideration at all, some other forum people i saw seem to aggree with me in some ways and started to do there own thing about knapsack improvemends....nothing has done about it...nothing at all

[OMEGASCRUFF]

I have an entire thread I've been sitting on about a major flaw in their approach to development that I've observed during the past couple updates, but I'm hesitant to post it unless I strip away a lot of the specific opinions I have to keep it more directed toward their design philosophy. I fear people might make excuses as well, and I really have no interest in stirring up trouble, because it's a little bit patronizing. But it's very relevant to this subject, so I'll share some relevant points.

I think Walter should have been a lot easier than Wendy to approach, unironically, because his sanity loss on hit is such a great opportunity to add strong risk and reward elements. It's his primary fault, but nothing in his kit currently capitalizes off of it and instead plays around it. He also has unexplored opportunities that capitalize off of his strong personality and character traits. Wendy's a lot harder, because of how averse to good fundies her player base seems to be, but her primary issue is pretty blatant too. It's Abigail's frailty and the lack of agency players have over her (in boss fights specifically.) For Wendy in specific, how you addressed this issue is crucial to her formula, because she was, originally, a fundies character when played at her best, not a puppet master. Wortox was easy, and his foundation was by far the strongest due to his defined skill set and simple issue. It was about the tight grip his limit and value of Souls held over his play style, which made him fairly inaccessible unless optimized. But I think they overcorrected too much on his weakness, missed some flawed and conflicting design choices, and are probably now hesitant to continue to make impactful changes when it's the most well-received skill tree of the three.

Ultimately, all 3 have had consistent and regular complaints since their inception and during any reworks, but the design direction for their skill trees have been largely out of touch and unfocused. And I don't think players themselves are equipped to summarize the criteria that need to be met, either.

I have to object, though; I don't buy the "need more Walters" bit for a even minute. The character is being promoted in the beta itself, which is a boost in interest for any featured character. You want feedback from people who already play him, of course, but you need to seek out the people who would like to play him if he had a more cohesive/interesting design. There's an important market for that, but the initial state of the skill tree itself just didn't inspire anyone to care besides the people who already play him/people who are invested in the well-being of all aspects of the game and not just their specific characters or play style. He should have had a stronger skill tree from the very start, because it's ultimately disenfranchised players, and didn't set any clear expectations in anyone's minds other than "slingshot go brrrr." There's just not enough to work with, for most players. If they wanted more feedback, it needed more time in the oven, and while not enough feedback is the result of the problem, it diverts attention away from the cause of the issue, which is the recurring problem I'm most concerned about.

Wendy had similar issues, but she's the most popular character and ended up, predictably, with the most amount of attention. When they didn't have a strong idea internally of how her gameplay should look, it led to constructive feedback (along with messages and threads regarding other characters' feedback) becoming saturated by so much noise.

Klei only has a handful of outlets for beta feedback, and these forums themselves are clearly not going to triage issues for them on their own. Topics get dated or derailed or missed by the internal employee who needs to see it most. There are many opinions, but not all are valuable. The best opinions are absolutely not guaranteed to be the most popular. Decisions often have to be made not with but instead despite community feedback. The beta isn't being utilized to its fullest potential, and it seems like they're perhaps leaning on it too heavily to begin with, if they were willing to present us with these skills trees the way they did at the start. A layer of defense against this is missing, internally.

I don't blame the players, and I don't even really blame the devs or Klei as a whole. I think it's just a structural problem across many different industries. We're all just doing what we can with the tools provided to us. Blaming anyone is destructive, anyways, and I'd prefer to focus on pointing out issues that can be (ideally) tangibly improved. (It's literally my job, lol)

But I myself just don't know what else I can offer to the game I've invested so much time into. All I can do is post novella-length messages on a forum and hope the right person sees something I say that helps to improve the product. Nobody can ethically promise they have all the right answers, and those answers are often best found in a well-functioning team. We're all just individuals here.

[Steorra]

7 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

i dont know, i belive i gave good suggestions about wortox knapsack, but here i am seemingly not taken into consideration at all, some other forum people i saw seem to aggree with me in some ways and started to do there own thing about knapsack improvemends....nothing has done about it...nothing at all

I do agree that knapsack could have many improvement as well. Tbh the devs would have some reasons and considered about every particular feedback, and it's impossible to satisfy every voices.

I know we would feel frustrated when our voices seems be "ignored", but if we still would like to believe our devs, we have to accept the possibility of not being the choosen idea in the end.

Additionally, the beta should update after a particular period. Since devs need time to complete what we feedback on codes. 

[Dingle]

7 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

i dont know, i belive i gave good suggestions about wortox knapsack, but here i am seemingly not taken into consideration at all, some other forum people i saw seem to aggree with me in some ways and started to do there own thing about knapsack improvemends....nothing has done about it...nothing at all

I think you'll have your answer next beta update. If it's not in by then, it was probably just seen but silently rejected.

[cyjs]

36 minutes ago, kroban said:

Im sorry dude but is your screen turned off* or what? Like please, PLEASE, go look at the forum page right now, literally the entire page is 95% WENDY posts asking for random crap, reload the page a couple times and look how Walter posts with a bunch of feedback that actually matters get buried IN MINUTES. I made a lot of posts about Walter precisely giving A LOT of feedback, out of the 4k hours I have I spent like 3k as him, yet each time I made a post it gets buried almost instantaneously by Wendy posters. And same happens for people that I can see main him and want to make a post with lots of feedback to help the devs. And this also happens with Wortox post too.

Like honestly, go look at the forum pages and tell me wheres the "walter posts" bumping higher than Wendy's post about how she needs to be able to fly, swim, have a ghost world dedicated to her, or random crap like that.

The developers say they will put equal effort into all three characters, but for now Wendy and Walter's skill trees are still not good. The Imp was close to perfect from the start. Although I hate to say it, there are differences in the level of developers. There are still a lot of bugs in the game that haven't been fixed. They should increase manpower.

[Theukon-dos]

Ok wait hold on. Having different teams for each character makes sense. But is there nobody overseeing them? Making sure that they're all aiming for the same goal and results? I've been wondering why Winona and Walter's skill trees where so wildly different despite having started in generally the same spot. But if completely different people made them with no Walter got buffs he's needed for nearly half a decade while Winona got nothing but filler and lore-based favoritism.

[Anis5240]

4 hours ago, cyjs said:

Although I hate to say it, there are differences in the level of developers. There are still a lot of bugs in the game that haven't been fixed. They should increase manpower.

So real man, both Scrappig and Frostjaw still suffer from such bugs that shouldn't even exist (double Scrappig and 'jesus' Frostjaw) for nearly a year.

Like come on man, nothing is more infuriating than bugs that impediment player's progress.

[_mylilsunshine_]

5 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Also to be fair to the devs it's not like they've been ignoring Walter feedback most of the changes that happen to Walter since the beta started came from feedback.

Gaddamn, I lit a match and ran away like an old-school Willow main huh..? Since everyone have had their discourse, I just want to reiterate that my point is not to point fingers at the devs, or at the Wendy mains. Even though I have personal grudges, this thread is meant to seek an answer on why Walter was so underdeveloped when he was first launched? And why did he receive less changes/attention than the other two?

Most of the feedback from the Walter players is well-received and implemented in the later builds, those that didn't were also given an answer. So clearly the Dev listens to what feedback Walter mains have to share. But the fact is: some changes/features were supposed to be in the initial build, completed before being launched to the public, or they should have been. They weren't, and I want to discuss that.

[cyjs]

1 hour ago, Anis5240 said:

So real man, both Scrappig and Frostjaw still suffer from such bugs that shouldn't even exist (double Scrappig and 'jesus' Frostjaw) for nearly a year.

Like come on man, nothing is more infuriating than bugs that impediment player's progress.

I'm talking about game bugs, rock shrimp bugs, cow copy bugs, and liquid box bugs. I don't want to say anything more.