The Problem with Walter's Skill Tree

[Lardee]

Out of all the characters in DST, Walter's skill tree is the one I was looking forward to the most. Please see below for my opinion on the issues that Walter's skill tree currently has and my suggestions for addressing them.

 

Please note my opinion shouldn't have more weight than anyone else's just because I made a video on it. Instead, I hope you will consider the actual reasons expressed in the video when deciding if my suggestions should be implemented or not.

 

[Dingle]

I proposed Woby being able to swim awhile ago, too. That would be great.

[Catuna_]

Nice video, but there's a bunch of points I'd like to address/disagree with
You make it sound like Walter's immunity to insanity drain is useless because of the existence of the bee queen crown and void robe, when those take up equipment slots, are breakable (though the robe can be repaired) and require beating two of the harder bosses in the game, that seems like a silly thing to gloss over.
The slingshot itself is in a good spot right now, and I think that sticking to the ranged mechanic as the primary idea is a good thing, but I really dislike the focus on damaging rounds that fail to outpace thulecite which can now be prototoyped; if Klei reworks some rounds to offer more utility rather than have Walter slow down mobs to a halt (71% slow from 3 slowdown rounds + 40% slow from honey rounds + 70% slow from icker) it would be a very nice addition to his skill tree.
Icker rounds last 2 minutes, not half a day. Nerfing icker rounds' duration to 30s would make them unappealing as 3 slowdown rounds achieve the same slow with the potential for AoE with the thulecite frame for 30s.
Boosting Woby's speed is a good thing, it's just that her speed wasn't boosted enough. 13 speed is not good when a rider beefalo reaches 12.4, so what Klei can do instead is buff her to 14 or even 15. It would make her a lot more appealing as a fast mount with a recurring cost because she would be significantly faster than any other option available to Walter. However bravery and badge supports are something I want gone, though Klei has said that they're working on making Woby an alternative than trying to be a replacement, and making the training method more player involved.
Woby swimming on water sounds rather uninteresting considering you cannot interact with much while on her, so I'd prefer if Walter got boyscout perks and a boating perk that allows him to be efficient similarly to mighty Wolfgang, though her swimming to retrieve items could be cool
 

[Dingle]

38 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

If Woby gets to swim before Wurt does, that'd be funny. 

Do merms swim in the game lore?

[Dingle]

Just now, Fitzee said:

Yes.

I was unsure, because they don't in-game. They just run around, throwing punches at me.

[-Variant]

7 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Do merms swim in the game lore?

Yes, there's mentions of it in the Gorge, and Wurt herself comments on her lack of a drowning penalty as a nice 'swim'!

[Lardee]

1 hour ago, Catuna_ said:

Nice video, but there's a bunch of points I'd like to address/disagree with
You make it sound like Walter's immunity to insanity drain is useless because of the existence of the bee queen crown and void robe, when those take up equipment slots, are breakable (though the robe can be repaired) and require beating two of the harder bosses in the game, that seems like a silly thing to gloss over.

I didn't mention it because it wasn't relevant to the point I was making. Same reason I didn't mention Woby's advantages over beefalo such as no buck timer, inventory slots, and invincible.

Quote

The slingshot itself is in a good spot right now, and I think that sticking to the ranged mechanic as the primary idea is a good thing, but I really dislike the focus on damaging rounds that fail to outpace thulecite which can now be prototoyped; if Klei reworks some rounds to offer more utility rather than have Walter slow down mobs to a halt (71% slow from 3 slowdown rounds + 40% slow from honey rounds + 70% slow from icker) it would be a very nice addition to his skill tree.
Icker rounds last 2 minutes, not half a day. Nerfing icker rounds' duration to 30s would make them unappealing as 3 slowdown rounds achieve the same slow with the potential for AoE with the thulecite frame for 30s.

In the video, I mentioned icky rounds would have a 30 second duration and would deal planar damage over time. This makes icky rounds a complete upgrade to slowdown against single targets.

Quote

Boosting Woby's speed is a good thing, it's just that her speed wasn't boosted enough. 13 speed is not good when a rider beefalo reaches 12.4, so what Klei can do instead is buff her to 14 or even 15. It would make her a lot more appealing as a fast mount with a recurring cost because she would be significantly faster than any other option available to Walter. However bravery and badge supports are something I want gone, though Klei has said that they're working on making Woby an alternative than trying to be a replacement, and making the training method more player involved.
Woby swimming on water sounds rather uninteresting considering you cannot interact with much while on her, so I'd prefer if Walter got boyscout perks and a boating perk that allows him to be efficient similarly to mighty Wolfgang, though her swimming to retrieve items could be cool
 

This comes down to a difference in what we find interesting. To me, Rider Beefalo are already extremely fast. I find Woby being a better rider beefalo very uninteresting. I already know how it feels to ride a beefalo. That's something every character can do.

What no character can do is explore the ocean on a mount that lets them fight, harvest, pick up items while moving at a fast speed and with the same maneuverability as they have on land. As far as what little interactions Walter can't do (mining, fishing, placing boats) these can be easily covered with skill points.

But again, there's no objective answer to this. We just differ on our definition of interesting.

[SpookyXy]

Woby being able to swim sounds interesting but how would you prevent Walter from just standing in the water, taking potshots at enemies stuck on land?

[gaymime]

5 minutes ago, SpookyXy said:

Woby being able to swim sounds interesting but how would you prevent Walter from just standing in the water, taking potshots at enemies stuck on land?

disable all attack actions when he is in the water and only allow "disembark" when touching a land edge or "pick" when under a fig?

[_mylilsunshine_]

You're a great player, Lardee, a true S rank, but sometimes you have to look from the perspective of C+ rank players too.

His immunity to sanity aura is extremely valuable for newer/casual players, letting them freely use wormholes, travel at dusk/night, forgo Tam O' (especially in multiplayer), fight (easier) monsters/bosses, etc. Just because everyone's sanity problem can be (partially) solved using an item doesn't make Walter's perk any less good, and I'm not even mentioning the availability of said item.

Beefalo gaming is just not for everybody, whether it is the playstyle, or the effort/commitment. Making Beef the standard of DST melee feels unhealthy, imo.

If you want the Slingshot to be used as a tool, and Walter will still engage in melee combat, then there should be perks to circumvent some of his combat problems (sanity loss, bee allergy).

Overall, I do agree with some  of your suggestions for the Slingshot and Rounds, but you should have a broader perspective on Walter & Woby.

1 hour ago, Catuna_ said:

You make it sound like Walter's immunity to insanity drain is useless because of the existence of the bee queen crown and void robe, when those take up equipment slots, are breakable (though the robe can be repaired) and require beating two of the harder bosses in the game, that seems like a silly thing to gloss over.

 

47 minutes ago, SpookyXy said:

Woby being able to swim sounds interesting but how would you prevent Walter from just standing in the water, taking potshots at enemies stuck on land?

He's already been able to do that with a boat.. Flying/swimming enemies will still get his ass, unless this new Woby can swim as fast as running (which isn't logical).

[Jakepeng99]

Dont let woby swim though.

[flamboyant wolf]

2 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Dont let woby swim though.

mermfolk propaganda...

[OMEGASCRUFF]

Walter essay incoming. Sorry in advance.

For context, while a DST veteran, I'm far from experienced with Walter. His play style was never compelling or unique to me, and I've been mostly preoccupied with optimizing Wortox with this beta. But I have tried him out a little bit, and I'm not sure his skill tree addresses my problems with him.

I've been thinking a great deal about the intention behind Walter lately. I agree with most of the concepts you proposed about what this character should be. I really like the idea of strong but un-stackable damage over time, as an opener.

Overall, there's a lot of missed opportunities with this character, when there could have been a large emphasis on teamwork and support, but the slingshot did need a lot of help, and I am okay with it being a strong focus for his skill tree. He also just doesn't have enough skills, still, compared to other characters, so there's some opportunity to add rather than change existing skills, though it is a little bit tight with the slingshot tree, and we are rapidly approaching release day. I will say, though, that I like that he has a pretty strong degree of character progression that many other characters don't have at all.

I'm honestly still a little surprised he didn't get a skill or upgrade that increases the damage of his slingshot the closer he is to the target, ideally when riding Woby. I wish he was encouraged to play a higher risk game, which I think is preferred for any character with great opportunity for cheesing many everyday threats.

I would have liked to see the slingshot be focused on status effects, support, and damage over time, as an opener and utility weapon to swap to periodically, while focusing on melee for maximum DPS for himself. However, I do still think the slingshot should have access to DPS rounds as well, giving the player more options rather than less. His post-rift DPS should probably be a bit higher than the Gloomerang, but not be his maximized or cheapest DPS option when combined with support rounds and melee options.

As for Woby... She needs to stop cowering and do something. The thing I wanted most was for her to be able to bite foes while small and trap them in place for a short time, triggered by an attack with the slingshot ("Ankle Biter", as I think of it.) It can work on a substantial cool down, and the current slowdown rounds can be balanced a bit around its impact to mob move speed. These rounds are definitely redundant and a bit too focused around the hold F and step backward play style. This would help to encourage more of the melee + ranged play style if Woby is made to increase melee damage when attacking with players, and this would also support the team a bit like Abigail's Vex. I was also hoping for a skill for a stronger Sanity aura than a pudgy Beefalo while riding Woby to pair with the Enlightened Crown, but alas, it's fine. I would have also liked to see her be able to do a bit of tick healing to an ally if they're very low on health ("Lick Wounds".) Ultimately, I just wanted her to be more involved and not just sit there in fear, and I get it, she's a scaredy-dog, but this ends up being a missed opportunity for some unique combat perks and support, and this would have been a good chance to reapproach her personality.

I don't know what kind of Warly/Blowdart factor I'd give him, but I'm having a bit of a hard time justifying it, since he can already cheese the two main bosses of this game for cheap. I like the idea of it, but I don't know what would make sense for him other than some sort of melee berserk mode when at low sanity and health, because we already have super strong, grindable ranged damage in the aforementioned Blowdarts. I don't know that this would be in character, or even fun, but maybe it could be made to be somehow.

In the end, I would have been happier with this skill tree if it encouraged Walter players to get their hands dirty and commit to a riskier play style to conserve on time, ammunition, and weapon durability. His team support in combat could have been a major opportunity that was mostly unexplored other than the slowdown effect and Pure Brilliance rounds. I tend to prefer playing characters that support my team but carry their own weight, which is in character for Walter, but there was little emphasis on support.

(If he was a more well-balanced and engaging character, I think it could also be justified that it's time to remove his cheese factor. I could easily see him refusing to shoot something on land from a boat or beyond a blockade and saying "Oh, I couldn't. That's unsportsmanlike!" with the disgust animation. A good scout would never hit below the belt. But he's gotta get better and more well-rounded, first.)

[flamboyant wolf]

I would love some proper DOT rounds.

[Chewabacca]

Woby being able to swim would be nice but I pretty much completely disagree with the idea that the slingshot shouldn't be a good source of damage. I suck at kiting so most melee fights are even more tedious and resource-intensive than what you describe--and what you describe doesn't feel particularly accurate, either. Walter still needs to get close enough to an enemy to shoot at it, and because firing is slow, you do need to keep moving to avoid being hit, especially if you're riding Woby who will buck you off and prevent you from moving as quickly if you take too many hits. That's engaging enough for me. In general, standard DS(T) combat is my least favorite part of the game, so the farther Walter can get me from it, the better. I understand that as someone much better at the game than me, particularly combat, you have different priorities. But if you find DST's melee combat fun, you have pretty much every other character to work with.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

6 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

Woby being able to swim would be nice but I pretty much completely disagree with the idea that the slingshot shouldn't be a good source of damage. I suck at kiting so most melee fights are even more tedious and resource-intensive than what you describe--and what you describe doesn't feel particularly accurate, either. Walter still needs to get close enough to an enemy to shoot at it, and because firing is slow, you do need to keep moving to avoid being hit, especially if you're riding Woby who will buck you off and prevent you from moving as quickly if you take too many hits. That's engaging enough for me. In general, standard DS(T) combat is my least favorite part of the game, so the farther Walter can get me from it, the better. I understand that as someone much better at the game than me, particularly combat, you have different priorities. But if you find DST's melee combat fun, you have pretty much every other character to work with.

I don't think there's anything stopping both of these options being improved upon simultaneously, especially since it'll take a good deal of modifiers to motivate a Walter to play up close and stay competitive with other DPS characters. As it currently stands, I think we're more likely to get competitive ranged DPS than a good reason to fight by hand. Most of the existing skill tree is already set up for this with just a few adjustments to numbers, and the call for a good damage-over-time round that benefits both play styles is getting louder.

I'm just not sure what they'll do with the expressed desire by some players to give him a proper high risk high reward play style. It is pretty late into the beta, at this point, and that's a lot of work to be done.