Wendy players need a more interesting skill tree than another Wolfgang.

[cloudf]

18 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Is interesting and has room for changes like a nerf to gestal abigail 

Currently there are at least two posts suggesting it by "Wendy gang"

[ColdHeaven]

6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wendy’s skill tree should be used as both a way to nerf her original rework, AND as a Way to give her fun new INTERESTING skills and things she can do.

Moving tombstones is alright… but it’s not as character defining as spawning your own dwarf star like Willow can.

The problem with Wendy (as Well as Wickerbottom, Maxwell & Wanda) they’re All incredibly broken OP because they’re Reworks came at a time when we did not have skill trees.

Interestingly enough, the reworks that DID come out closer to Skill Trees received tweaks and nerfs that skill trees helped to balance out.

Like: You can still have speed movement buff on Wolfgang, but it requires wasting a skill point to unlock, and it can’t be used in Mighty Mode anymore.

I have this sensible feeling that if Wendy’s Rework would’ve been released around the same time frame as her skill tree-

The Petal Debuff would require a skill point or two to unlock and faster bloom rate of Abigail’s flower would require skill tree investment.

Klei may even pull a full fledged Willow and Woodie on You: Aka- Forcing you to master only one skill and having to give up the other ones.

For Woodie you can Master one of his 3 forms but doing so locks you out of mastering the other two.

For Willow you can either get Better Bernie, or cool fire mage powers, but you can’t have both.

WENDY is broken levels of OP and her skill tree should’ve Forced players to choose between Petal boost bonus, or Instantly and Infinitely resummon Abigail.. but you shouldn’t be able to have BOTH for #Balance.

And if Klei would actually step on some peoples feelings & toes and “Nerf Wendy”

We could get a more interesting Skill Tree that isn’t just buffs in Abby’s damage and survivability.

i really like you.

one of the few people who know that wolfgang isn't a balancing anchor.

[Peasant]

12 minutes ago, cloudf said:

Currently there are at least two posts suggesting it by "Wendy gang"

Nah, Wenlfgang is shadow Abigail, not gestalt.

[Steorra]

2 hours ago, YXukun said:

Nah, Wenlfgang is shadow Abigail, not gestalt.

Shadow abi seems more like Wenda maybe. Wanda and Shadow abi both perform badly against planar mobs.

[Mr Giggio]

13 hours ago, Lee lol said:

If you're willing to show me what an 11k hour player understands about Wendy, I'd love to listen.

All right.

I dunno for how long you have been following the game but since the start one of the key factors about DST is the challange. And how the characters interact with it.

Wendy was a easy one to play but really hard to master. Her perks offers a ease time with fighting in general and every newcomer would find confort relying on Abi to help but the bosses was the moment when they had the reality knocking on the front door. The other characters are struggling too since the beggining but once she had Abi as a backup it creates a lack of awareness about how fighting can be tough in most cases.

In the other hand the players who could do bosses with Wendy have this responsability of keeping Abigail alive being the main key point and the beauty of it all. 

The Twins are strong together. Abi would open the door of massive DPS as long you care about her not only healing but moving in a way that she would not suffer - it extends to correct uses of Vigor Mortis for some bosses, Nostris in situations that DPS would be more impactfull than survivability or spamm Cure all when the plan fails and she is hurt. Improving kitting is the solution for that so she could use the other potions. 

The challange for her was learning and improving how to keep Abi alive as long beating the enemy. And its possible to do every boss like that, probably only exception Cestial Champion IMO. Every other boss I can do it and we have a lotta players that even show how to do the fight in youtube and other media if u willing to see.

 

This was the scenario before the skill tree.

Now...

It feels like a extension of the regular mobs. Ghestalt Abi is like AFK farming bosses once she can do it alone while the player is watchin she do the whole job. Giants aint spiders or frogs. That makes Wendy gameplay absolute soft. In a survival game. Its like Abi is the main character, we just watching. People can say they did get the AoE damage as sacrifice in order to have that but its a lie. The skill "Attack here" does have a area of effect similar to the charge that weremoose transformation from Woodie does. She goes in a straight line obliterating everything in the way. The AoE still there. 

And what is the breaking point for me is - The skill "Attack here" is awesome even for regular Abi. We can make Abi kite mobs and mitigate a lotta damage but that demans our reflexes and timing to make it work. It wasnt automatic.  I did this with three attempts to showcase the skill. I love it untill here.

 

Ghestalt Abi thoi removes the challange. The gameplay without challange loses flavor. I honestly feel like it cant be more bland. 

Despite that, I always saw the skill trees like an attempt to improve from the issues the character had and make it creative, fun and interesting. And that doesnt mean removing downsides. Downsides actually do add to a character. It forces us to change the playstyle from character to character. But Wendy was already a strong character. Now its just over the top with overtuned numbers. If you think its okay to be able to kill bosses without effort, so we have a different perspective about the game and it gets pointless to discuss.

 

[HowlVoid]

Funny, i used to play exclusively Wendy before Wormwood was added to dst.

I stopped playing her because it was too easy, can't say the new skill tree makes me want to play her any more than before. 

Also, all characters affect other characters when playing multi-player.

This is a multi-player game, you can't judge a character in a vacuum or expect experience in a vacuum (people who main one character) to account for everything.  And it's because characters exist outside a vacuum that you can judge them based on how they relate and interact to/with other characters. This sets a baseline and it's also important when discussing balance.

[Lee lol]

3 hours ago, Mr Giggio said:

All right.

I dunno for how long you have been following the game but since the start one of the key factors about DST is the challange. And how the characters interact with it.

Wendy was a easy one to play but really hard to master. Her perks offers a ease time with fighting in general and every newcomer would find confort relying on Abi to help but the bosses was the moment when they had the reality knocking on the front door. The other characters are struggling too since the beggining but once she had Abi as a backup it creates a lack of awareness about how fighting can be tough in most cases.

In the other hand the players who could do bosses with Wendy have this responsability of keeping Abigail alive being the main key point and the beauty of it all. 

The Twins are strong together. Abi would open the door of massive DPS as long you care about her not only healing but moving in a way that she would not suffer - it extends to correct uses of Vigor Mortis for some bosses, Nostris in situations that DPS would be more impactfull than survivability or spamm Cure all when the plan fails and she is hurt. Improving kitting is the solution for that so she could use the other potions. 

The challange for her was learning and improving how to keep Abi alive as long beating the enemy. And its possible to do every boss like that, probably only exception Cestial Champion IMO. Every other boss I can do it and we have a lotta players that even show how to do the fight in youtube and other media if u willing to see.

 

This was the scenario before the skill tree.

Now...

It feels like a extension of the regular mobs. Ghestalt Abi is like AFK farming bosses once she can do it alone while the player is watchin she do the whole job. Giants aint spiders or frogs. That makes Wendy gameplay absolute soft. In a survival game. Its like Abi is the main character, we just watching. People can say they did get the AoE damage as sacrifice in order to have that but its a lie. The skill "Attack here" does have a area of effect similar to the charge that weremoose transformation from Woodie does. She goes in a straight line obliterating everything in the way. The AoE still there. 

And what is the breaking point for me is - The skill "Attack here" is awesome even for regular Abi. We can make Abi kite mobs and mitigate a lotta damage but that demans our reflexes and timing to make it work. It wasnt automatic.  I did this with three attempts to showcase the skill. I love it untill here.

 

Ghestalt Abi thoi removes the challange. The gameplay without challange loses flavor. I honestly feel like it cant be more bland. 

Despite that, I always saw the skill trees like an attempt to improve from the issues the character had and make it creative, fun and interesting. And that doesnt mean removing downsides. Downsides actually do add to a character. It forces us to change the playstyle from character to character. But Wendy was already a strong character. Now its just over the top with overtuned numbers. If you think its okay to be able to kill bosses without effort, so we have a different perspective about the game and it gets pointless to discuss.

 

I basically agree with you. Wendy is a character with a high floor and a high ceiling. She can make the early game better for newbies and more challenging for veterans, as well as being highly rewarding, as long as you learn to control Abigail's health and move around in battle, and train Beefalo if you want, which also makes the game more fun. Wendy is strong in the early middle of the game, but she doesn't op because it takes a lot of practice to defeat a lot of bosses (protecting Abigail as well as training Beefalo) and it's unfair to say that Wendy is an OP just because of her AOE damage (which makes her more beginner-friendly). (I've seen a lot of this in the forums) while there are more challenges after the rift, Abigail has a hard time surviving the boss attack after the rift (if you can do it, then I'm impressed), and bull riding fights have become difficult (not just Wendy's problem)
I think the designers seem to only see one aspect of Wendy's adaptation to new players, and ignore the fact that many Wendy players are willing to take on more challenges and fun gameplay, so they choose to give Wendy a high attack stat. I haven't actually played it on the test server yet, so I don't know if Gestalt Abi vs. Shadow Abi are really that op, just if she's really what you say, I think this skill tree will be boring. I don't want Wendy to be the second Wolfgang.
Overall, I can't say I'm very happy with the current skill tree, because it doesn't really change Wendy's gameplay mechanics, and it also has some problems with stats and skill operations. If I had to give it a score I would only give it a 6 if they improved the current problem.
If they could, I'd like them to tone down Abigail's attacks while introducing some more interesting mechanics, even if they weren't combat-related.

[Lee lol]

On 12/2/2024 at 2:17 AM, Mike23Ua said:

Okay, but what is this thread supposed to even be about? What’s the main goal here? I think people should be allowed to express what they would like to see or desire on a character rather they have played that character for a literal decade (hey that’s me) or barely just started playing that Character (That’s also me with Walter!)

But I can totally see a suggestion of someone wanting Woby to be able to drag Walter out the water and be like “aww now that would totally be adorable, I want that!”

Do I main Walter? No.. will this make me play as Walter a whole lot more often? Probably not.. but would it be a charmingly cute interaction Between Walter & Woby? 100% absolutely!

The only thing that a desperately ask is that people NOT make suggestions that completely destroy the core gameplay loop of the character.

Anyone asking for Wendy to be able to get Abigail’s help with boss fights and shadow monsters either A: Doesn’t play with Wendy long enough to understand that those downsides are what makes some people enjoy playing as her.

Or B: Has played her enough.. but just wants her to be broken levels of OP getting abilities that completely destroys what was intended to be core challenges to playing as the character.

overall- I trust the developers at Klei know their characters far better than any of us forumites throwing suggestions ever will, so if they see a video of say for example Lunar Abigail ripping every boss a new one, when Wendy was never intended to be THAT good at fighting bosses…

I won’t be upset if they nerf or completely remove it because they don’t feel it fits their design intent.

(same as how they removed Glass Canon Wendy)

I'd be happy if the designers could come up with a better idea that was more fun, more challenging, and less damaging than Gestalt Abby.

[lio516]

It could have been more fun and more fitting and more sisterly bonding, but they just increased the numbers

[Mr Giggio]

5 hours ago, Lee lol said:

I basically agree with you. Wendy is a character with a high floor and a high ceiling. She can make the early game better for newbies and more challenging for veterans, as well as being highly rewarding, as long as you learn to control Abigail's health and move around in battle, and train Beefalo if you want, which also makes the game more fun. Wendy is strong in the early middle of the game, but she doesn't op because it takes a lot of practice to defeat a lot of bosses (protecting Abigail as well as training Beefalo) and it's unfair to say that Wendy is an OP just because of her AOE damage (which makes her more beginner-friendly). (I've seen a lot of this in the forums) while there are more challenges after the rift, Abigail has a hard time surviving the boss attack after the rift (if you can do it, then I'm impressed), and bull riding fights have become difficult (not just Wendy's problem)
I think the designers seem to only see one aspect of Wendy's adaptation to new players, and ignore the fact that many Wendy players are willing to take on more challenges and fun gameplay, so they choose to give Wendy a high attack stat. I haven't actually played it on the test server yet, so I don't know if Gestalt Abi vs. Shadow Abi are really that op, just if she's really what you say, I think this skill tree will be boring. I don't want Wendy to be the second Wolfgang.
Overall, I can't say I'm very happy with the current skill tree, because it doesn't really change Wendy's gameplay mechanics, and it also has some problems with stats and skill operations. If I had to give it a score I would only give it a 6 if they improved the current problem.
If they could, I'd like them to tone down Abigail's attacks while introducing some more interesting mechanics, even if they weren't combat-related.

Shadow Abi is strong bit overturned but fine. The Ghestalt one just makes the game challengeless. U a god, periodt. Watching bosses die due a bot should never be a thing. 

[Creatorofswamps]

Any skill tree is more interesting than Wolfgang's (it's strong but obviously uninteresting)

[RussoDaFederal]

10 hours ago, Mr Giggio said:

Ghestalt Abi is like AFK farming bosses once she can do it alone while the player is watchin she do the whole job.

Wait, really? I didn't think she was that strong, do you have a video on that? I'm genuinely curious about the setup (still would probably pick shadow Abi over gestalt Abi)

[Mr Giggio]

1 hour ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Wait, really? I didn't think she was that strong, do you have a video on that? I'm genuinely curious about the setup (still would probably pick shadow Abi over gestalt Abi)

It doesnt need a setup u just watch and thats it, you can check youtube with the ghestalt Abi tag its everywhere, saw NDaang Lardee and Ameslarii with couple ones but its super easy to reproduce the fight yourself

[Jazzuo]

6 minutes ago, Mr Giggio said:

It doesnt need a setup u just watch and thats it, you can check youtube with the ghestalt Abi tag its everywhere, saw NDaang Lardee and Ameslarii with couple ones but its super easy to reproduce the fight yourself

this is the biggest problem with wendy rn, and people only care about buff wendy more lmao

[SilverSpoon]

3 hours ago, Mr Giggio said:

Watching bosses die due a bot should never be a thing. 

flop flop

Personally, I agree that Gestalt Abigail is too OP so it made boss battle is automatic. However, Wurt has already made that. The critical problem with this is that Wurt is (basically) a character that requires additional transaction, so, ladies and gentlemen, the current DST is "Pay to Win." Furthermore, there is also the problem of losing the trust of paying users if you easily nerf something that you have obtained by paying money. Considering this current situation, I think that Gestalt Abigail is a "necessary evil".

[RussoDaFederal]

54 minutes ago, Mr Giggio said:

It doesnt need a setup u just watch and thats it, you can check youtube with the ghestalt Abi tag its everywhere, saw NDaang Lardee and Ameslarii with couple ones but its super easy to reproduce the fight yourself

I just looked at these videos and there's one particularly good to show how OP gestalt Abi is (linked below), but aside from killing early bosses (Deerclops and Bearger for example) without lifting a finger, all the rest required some knowledge of the fight for Abi to really shine. Well, maybe except for Nightmare Werepig and AG, those fights weren't supposed to be that easy. I also tried it myself and it's true that she trivializes some stuff but I really don't think she's as broken as you and the youtubers make her out to be. For example, she still dies pretty quickly to Armored Bearger even if she can avoid most attacks. Maybe her damage could be toned down, but I like the gestalt concept and I think Klei should keep it. The people who are able to kill any boss with gestalt Abi are also able to do so without her even faster using other characters or other methods.

Also, this next part is not related to your response, I just wanted to say this but didn't want to create a whole new post just to complain: some Wendy mains want her to do everything. "Oh but she still has this and that weakness" oh really Sherlock. Especially when talking about fighting shadow creatures, please don't make Abi able to fight shadow creatures. Maybe if a new elixir did that then I wouldn't complain, but people want all her "shortcomings" removed. Go play a mod character if you hate Wendy so much. And Wendy isn't weak against shadow creatures, Abi can deal with other monsters chasing her while she can focus solely on kiting the shadows. Sure, she deals less damage, but honestly who cares. They're super easy to kite, just having to hit them like 3 more times compared to other characters isn't a meaningful weakness in my book. Same about bosses, it's a shortcoming that I got so used to that I don't even care anymore, for some fights I just despawn Abi and fight with lower damage, I'll just have to survive a little longer in the fight.

P.S. In the video, I like how Wendy and Abi basically switch places in the Fuelweaver fight, Abi deals high damage and Wendy takes care of the little mobs that recover Fuelweaver's health. Even if it is somewhat OP, I think that was funny and enjoyable.

 

[Peasant]

2 hours ago, RussoDaFederal said:

They're super easy to kite

I doubt if they are still that easy to kite when there's three beak fellow chasing you, like I experienced before…

[SilverSpoon]

7 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

You better be using sarcasm; it's the only way to save you from looking like a fool.

I can't deny and hide that I'm actually a fool, but I honestly think that Wurt is far more OP than other characters and that need payment so I feel like Pay to Win.

[RussoDaFederal]

11 minutes ago, YXukun said:

I doubt if they are still that easy to kite when there's three beak fellow chasing you, like I experienced before…

I mean, I still think their kite pattern is one of the easiest in the game, but the more monsters you have after you, the harder it gets. It's worse to me when there are Terrorbeaks AND Crawling Horrors after you, because since they have different speed they block each other and lead you to miss the timing more often. But it's still doable. My point is, other characters have to face the same amount of shadow creatures AND sometimes a wave of hounds for example.

[cloudf]

16 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

But it's still doable

It takes longer to kill a single shadow creature as Wendy, which means more sanity drained during the fight, and a higher chance a second shadow creature spawns before you killed the first one, which will make the fight much harder. And overall it means potentially way more time is wasted. This is especially important in early ruin rushes. I do believe it is justifiable as a downside however, but it is not a negligible downside  (and here we begin to think about which character doesn't have a downsize... it seems like there are, a lot?).

Another thing I want to mention is blue mushroom, to some characters it is free healing, to me I often find it is not worthwhile when my sanity is low.

16 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

other characters have to face the same amount of shadow creatures AND sometimes a wave of hounds for example

I believe this point is much more convincing before other skill trees being added into the game....

21 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

they block each other

Actually, you can leverage the fact they can block each other, bait and attack the one near you, and the second one can't reach you

[RussoDaFederal]

10 minutes ago, cloudf said:

Actually, you can leverage the fact they can block each other, bait and attack the one near you, and the second one can't reach you

I do that with crawling horrors, but terrorbeaks are too fast for me so I just wait a little longer.

12 minutes ago, cloudf said:

It takes longer to kill a single shadow creature as Wendy, which means more sanity drained during the fight, and a higher chance a second shadow creature spawns before you killed the first one, which will make the fight much harder

That's the worst case scenario, it doesn't go like that always.

[Mr Giggio]

11 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

the current DST is "Pay to Win."

Must be though getting 2700 spools that they give for free eh

11 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

I think that Gestalt Abigail is a "necessary evil"

I couldnt disagree more buddy 

Day 11 moon dial versus a giga ton of seasons getting resources and grinding structures to have literally an army, compare the costs...

[SilverSpoon]

17 minutes ago, Mr Giggio said:

Must be though getting 2700 spools that they give for free eh

Most microtransaction games have free gems, but I never think that mean they're not Pay to win. Even infamous "Pride and Accomplishment" Darth Vader, can be unlocked after 40 hours of gameplay.

29 minutes ago, Mr Giggio said:

I couldnt disagree more buddy 

Day 11 moon dial versus a giga ton of seasons getting resources and grinding structures to have literally an army, compare the costs...

From my personal experience, I can say that you don't need such a large army for Wurt after Skill Tree, and considering the effort required for elixirs, I think it's just about the same as Wurt who need just some stone fruit to maintain.

I haven't tried Speedrun, but I wonder how many Merms I can make in 11 days...

[Mr Giggio]

9 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

effort required for elixirs

One pipspook quest nowadays allow u to do an all boss run... If u sloppy two MAX. Dude. Geez. 

[cyjs]

15 minutes ago, Mr Giggio said:

One pipspook quest nowadays allow u to do an all boss run... If u sloppy two MAX. Dude. Geez. 

So I suggest deleting Wendy's skill tree, a whole refactoring of it. Since no one is satisfied, it’s better to give up.