Wendy players need a more interesting skill tree than another Wolfgang.

[Lee lol]

（Original title:If you're not playing Wendy, don't point fingers at Wendy's skill tree.）

Interestingly, Wendy players usually don't care about other characters' skill trees, and don't judge them easily, because it's stupid and irrational to judge things they don't know, while other players have been making self-righteous opinions about Wendy's skill tree, Wendy's strength, even though they may not have played Wendy for more than 10 hours at all, and haven't used Wendy to defeat every boss.

--------

The reason for the post is that I've seen some people think Wendy is strong, so her skill tree should be nerfed and doesn't need to be changed much. I would say that I can only partially agree with this point of view, and I'm willing to weaken the stats of Wendy's skill tree in exchange for a more interesting mechanic. Wendy is already strong and that's not a reason for designers to make this kind of skill tree. She deserves a better skill tree.

If the designer needs some references to make it more interesting, here are some suggestions for skill trees:

 

 

[usagiP]

Why do you speak so accurately? You're OP！！！ It's necessary to weaken your ability to speak:(

nerf！nerf！

[layangan putus]

So if I've beaten all bosses as Wendy (or every other character) without Abi (or any abilities) - just like Wes would do, can I discuss about her skill tree? I agree that it will be unwise to talk about something you don't know about because there will be nothing to talk except gibberish, but I think anyone that has played her enough & has tested her in beta can discuss about Wendy's potential rework to then bring data & analysis for the discussion. I am not sure what to do about opinions that express boring, fun, ugly, etc except "It is what it is" because time is ticking - decisions need to be made. Dev team couldn't just go back and forth (or could they?) and it's up to their vision of the game to listen to everyone's influences about the skill tree & whatnot. At least for me, this character stuff will never be the biggest factor to get the best experience out of this game but we could debate all days about this factor & experience.

[Mike23Ua]

Okay, but what is this thread supposed to even be about? What’s the main goal here? I think people should be allowed to express what they would like to see or desire on a character rather they have played that character for a literal decade (hey that’s me) or barely just started playing that Character (That’s also me with Walter!)

But I can totally see a suggestion of someone wanting Woby to be able to drag Walter out the water and be like “aww now that would totally be adorable, I want that!”

Do I main Walter? No.. will this make me play as Walter a whole lot more often? Probably not.. but would it be a charmingly cute interaction Between Walter & Woby? 100% absolutely!

The only thing that a desperately ask is that people NOT make suggestions that completely destroy the core gameplay loop of the character.

Anyone asking for Wendy to be able to get Abigail’s help with boss fights and shadow monsters either A: Doesn’t play with Wendy long enough to understand that those downsides are what makes some people enjoy playing as her.

Or B: Has played her enough.. but just wants her to be broken levels of OP getting abilities that completely destroys what was intended to be core challenges to playing as the character.

overall- I trust the developers at Klei know their characters far better than any of us forumites throwing suggestions ever will, so if they see a video of say for example Lunar Abigail ripping every boss a new one, when Wendy was never intended to be THAT good at fighting bosses…

I won’t be upset if they nerf or completely remove it because they don’t feel it fits their design intent.

(same as how they removed Glass Canon Wendy)

[usagiP]

29 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I trust the developers at Klei know their characters far better than any of us forumites throwing suggestions ever will

That's not the case; each developer is responsible for a specific part, while we see the game as a whole
It's possible that we understand the game better than the developers; otherwise, they wouldn't need our feedback:3~

Or are you referring to character design？
I believe we shouldn't be too rigid with the settings.

Think about it, the plot can also change the characters, just like when Maxwell received Charlie's support; after that scene, he became stronger.
Bosses are increasing and getting stronger, and each character also needs to become stronger accordingly
Facing the moon and shadows, they have grown. This is just so cool

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

1小时前，Lee lol说：

有趣的是，温迪玩家通常不关心其他角色的技能树，也不轻易评判他们，因为评判他们不知道的事情是愚蠢和不合理的，而其他玩家一直在对温迪的技能树、温迪的力量发表自以为是的看法，尽管他们可能玩温迪超过10个小时，也没有利用温迪击败每个老板。

You are right.

[Rouanet]

18 minutes ago, usagiP said:

It's possible that we understand the game better than the developers; otherwise, they wouldn't need our feedback:3~

I wonder who knows more about the game, people who have worked on it for years or players that only see the final product... huh, that's a tough one

Beta tests exist for 3 main reasons: bug fixing, feedback and marketing. A beta test is not the first stage of a software release cycle. By the time the beta test is released, the devs have already spent a considerable amount of time not just coding, but brainstorming, tweaking ideas and deciding what new game elements fit the game best. That applies to all games, not just DST

Of course the players opinions matter, and Klei listens, which is why the skill trees have already changed considerably. But thinking that we know the game better than the devs is wild

[usagiP]

29 minutes ago, Rouanet said:

1 hour ago, usagiP said:

It's possible that we understand the game better than the developers; otherwise, they wouldn't need our feedback:3~

I wonder who knows more about the game, people who have worked on it for years or players that only see the final product... huh, that's a tough one

Beta tests exist for 3 main reasons: bug fixing, feedback and marketing. A beta test is not the first stage of a software release cycle. By the time the beta test is released, the devs have already spent a considerable amount of time not just coding, but brainstorming, tweaking ideas and deciding what new game elements fit the game best. That applies to all games, not just DST

Of course the players opinions matter, and Klei listens, which is why the skill trees have already changed considerably. But thinking that we know the game better than the devs is wild

You take my words seriously? Haha, I'm really sorry. The way developers see a game is different from how players see it. We are also a part of this game, and I think there's nothing wrong with being a bit arrogant.

[Steorra]

3 hours ago, DST enjoyer said:

So if I've beaten all bosses as Wendy (or every other character) without Abi (or any abilities) - just like Wes would do, can I discuss about her skill tree? I agree that it will be unwise to talk about something you don't know about because there will be nothing to talk except gibberish, but I think anyone that has played her enough & has tested her in beta can discuss about Wendy's potential rework to then bring data & analysis for the discussion. I am not sure what to do about opinions that express boring, fun, ugly, etc except "It is what it is" because time is ticking - decisions need to be made. Dev team couldn't just go back and forth (or could they?) and it's up to their vision of the game to listen to everyone's influences about the skill tree & whatnot. At least for me, this character stuff will never be the biggest factor to get the best experience out of this game but we could debate all days about this factor & experience.

Have to say for some people the "best" means wolfgan DPS and nothing more, for others it may means "high quality and suitable creativity like Wortox and Woodie skill tree - which brings no OP dps but covered all main downside for them"

[aidankocherhans]

4 hours ago, Lee lol said:

Interestingly, Wendy players usually don't care about other characters' skill trees, and don't judge them easily, because it's stupid and irrational to judge things they don't know, while other players have been making self-righteous opinions about Wendy's skill tree, Wendy's strength, even though they may not have played Wendy for more than 10 hours at all, and haven't used Wendy to defeat every boss.

How would you even know that either of those things are true?

Last time I saw a "non Wendy player" making comments about the skill tree they actually were a Wendy player, but other people were assuming they weren't because they disagreed with their opinion

[Evelo]

I don't Main wendy, but that doesn't mean I don't play her. I play everyone with a few exceptions (Wes, Wortox, and Wolfgang). I spend most of my time playing Wormwood but I've played plenty of the other characters. Does this mean I am barred from making comments on their skill trees? This is egregious gatekeeping. Please do not do that.

DST Enjoyer said it very well.

[layangan putus]

  

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

Have to say for some people the "best" means wolfgan DPS and nothing more, for others it may means "high quality and suitable creativity like Wortox and Woodie skill tree - which brings no OP dps but covered all main downside for them"

I respect all people and surely I cannot know describe this "best" experience but here is a list of possible experiences that players can get from what I've been observing (you are not bound to one type, can be mixed - something between):

 

• Newbies simply wanna quit or learn about the game

CARE ABOUT GUIDANCE
(two of my friends asked me to play DST but they just immediately quitted because there were no clues or guidances - not all gamers are fine with google/wiki)
EXAMPLE: We have journal now for clue but no guidance; the iridescent gem would take forever to get if you know nothing about it

 

• Streamers simply wanna cross their to do checklist & entertain their viewers

CARE ABOUT INTERACTION
(love something expected within a timeframe and less bugs or rng because they have schedule)
EXAMPLE: 1 day in-game = 8 mins irl

 

• Speedrunners simply wanna express their skills in both of game mechanics (applying new tech), reaction time (most of professional gamers have at least <150 ms reaction time - average person will have around 250 ms), & muscle memory (to perform consistently)

CARE ABOUT CHALLENGE
(love difficulty - the less people can do & they can do faster, the better)
EXAMPLE: Slaying all bosses as Wes, fighting AFW without getting hit as Wanda

 

• Simple gamers simply wanna do the intended way

CARE ABOUT BALANCING
(usually yapping about buffing or nerfing something)
EXAMPLE: "An uncompromising wilderness survival game" - Me yapping about the game loop (cycle) being too predictable & also resources being too abundant

 

• Exploiters simply wanna break the game or test the limit

CARE ABOUT META
(love doing something mischief or trolling around, can easily find most of them in public servers)
EXAMPLE: Voidwalking was time saver (fixed) or math (damage number - quantifiable)

 

• Social Butterflies simply wanna be part of a group and do something together

CARE ABOUT QUALITY OF LIFE
(love roleplaying)
EXAMPLE: In-game chat, encounters, emotes, doing something easier to make everything smoother

 

• Artists simply wanna get inspiration for a reference

CARE ABOUT AUTHENTICITY
(love consistent story)
EXAMPLE: Vignettes, Klei DST videos, skins

 

• Dev Team simply wanna realize their vision & please all sides to earn money

CARE ABOUT SOLUTION
(love supports, ideas, and solutions)
EXAMPLE: Patch notes

[Copyafriend]

6 hours ago, Lee lol said:

nterestingly, Wendy players usually don't care about other characters' skill trees, and don't judge them easily, because it's stupid and irrational to judge things they don't know, while other players have been making self-righteous opinions about Wendy's skill tree, Wendy's strength, even though they may not have played Wendy for more than 10 hours at all, and haven't used Wendy to defeat every boss.

This same topic comes up every single time there's a character tree up for debate.

Everyone gets to share their opinion, they do not have to have experience with the character or even with the game. someone who bought the game yesterday and just looked at skins for 30 minutes is allowed to make an account here and post their opinions.

 

I'm sorry to say this, but this is a public forum, and trying to gatekeep opinions isn't going to work. Anyone is allowed to have one.

 

Not to mention that the main reason to take this stance is if you believe other people's opinions are somehow incorrect. There is no incorrect or correct opinion. I can say that I want a weapon that one shots every single boss given to wendy, and I am 100% correct in this opinion, even if you don't like it. I can simultaneously say that I want abigail removed because she doesn't add anything to my gameplay experience. You can say that the majority of wendy players disagree with me;

And you'd be right to.

But you disagreeing with my opinion doesn't make my opinion wrong or invalid. that's not how any of this works. Everyone is allowed to have an opinion even if it directly contradicts what you (Who is presumably a wendy main) want. Heck a large number of players probably have played wendy more than you despite her not being their main. that doesn't make their viewpoint more valid than yours either of course, but you have no idea how much a player has played wendy or how long they've been playing the game. and experience doesn't necessarily equate to good suggestions either.

[Mr Giggio]

7 hours ago, Lee lol said:

even though they may not have played Wendy for more than 10 hours at all

I have 11k hours playing this game. Guess what. You proud that you have time playing as her and thats fine the only thing quite equivocate here is the fact u  cant limit experience cuz others dont main. I probably know more about her than you but we here in this topic. Augh. 

[Peasant]

9 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

overall- I trust the developers at Klei know their characters far better than any of us forumites throwing suggestions ever will

I don't quite think so, there's a saying that the moment the game is handed to the players, the developers turns from ones who know most about it to ones who know least about it. You cannot hope the developers to be all perfect that they could take all kinds of circumstance into considering. If the thing is truly as you said, then every character should be perfect at the begining.

[arubaro]

Is funny how some people believe that only players who agree with them play wendy while the rest dont.

I will tell you a secret, you can play a character and dont want it to become stupid to keep enjoying it

[Catuna_]

While I agree that everyone should try out things to know what they're talking about, I think that you don't need an absurd amount of Wendy playtime to know that Wendy's currently an over-tuned character. I'm saying this as a very avid Wendy player, she's one of my favorites to play and I think that her absurd amounts of damage right now shouldn't be the direction her skill tree takes her in.

[Steorra]

3 hours ago, arubaro said:

Is funny how some people believe that only players who agree with them play wendy while the rest dont.

I will tell you a secret, you can play a character and dont want it to become stupid to keep enjoying it

It's funny when some people believe that they played Maxwell and know something about him but think "to farm fuel when fighting against a boss is impossible".

3 hours ago, Catuna_ said:

While I agree that everyone should try out things to know what they're talking about, I think that you don't need an absurd amount of Wendy playtime to know that Wendy's currently an over-tuned character. I'm saying this as a very avid Wendy player, she's one of my favorites to play and I think that her absurd amounts of damage right now shouldn't be the direction her skill tree takes her in.

We know, but the important point is Wendy skill tree is still low-quality beside the broken amounts.

Or have to say the broken amounts is just one part which showed why Wendy skill tree is low-quality. It is OP maybe, but for quality side it is same as other issues.

simply amount bonus from skill tree is just like what wolfgan have, it is boring and lack of creativity.

But we fear that if we give voice to lei Klei nerf the amount, the skill tree would have nothing more in future. This may happened as a sad end. So we prefer to continue to ask other things, and keep silent to the broken amount before other shining point publish out.

[Peasant]

21 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

I think that her absurd amounts of damage right now shouldn't be the direction her skill tree takes her in.

Exactly. Skilltrees shouldn't be just about bigger numbers, they are supposed to add new stuff and solve qol problems. Simply make Wendy Wenlfgang won't please anyone.

[Mike23Ua]

Wendy’s skill tree should be used as both a way to nerf her original rework, AND as a Way to give her fun new INTERESTING skills and things she can do.

Moving tombstones is alright… but it’s not as character defining as spawning your own dwarf star like Willow can.

The problem with Wendy (as Well as Wickerbottom, Maxwell & Wanda) they’re All incredibly broken OP because they’re Reworks came at a time when we did not have skill trees.

Interestingly enough, the reworks that DID come out closer to Skill Trees received tweaks and nerfs that skill trees helped to balance out.

Like: You can still have speed movement buff on Wolfgang, but it requires wasting a skill point to unlock, and it can’t be used in Mighty Mode anymore.

I have this sensible feeling that if Wendy’s Rework would’ve been released around the same time frame as her skill tree-

The Petal Debuff would require a skill point or two to unlock and faster bloom rate of Abigail’s flower would require skill tree investment.

Klei may even pull a full fledged Willow and Woodie on You: Aka- Forcing you to master only one skill and having to give up the other ones.

For Woodie you can Master one of his 3 forms but doing so locks you out of mastering the other two.

For Willow you can either get Better Bernie, or cool fire mage powers, but you can’t have both.

WENDY is broken levels of OP and her skill tree should’ve Forced players to choose between Petal boost bonus, or Instantly and Infinitely resummon Abigail.. but you shouldn’t be able to have BOTH for #Balance.

And if Klei would actually step on some peoples feelings & toes and “Nerf Wendy”

We could get a more interesting Skill Tree that isn’t just buffs in Abby’s damage and survivability.

[Steorra]

29 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wendy’s skill tree should be used as both a way to nerf her original rework, AND as a Way to give her fun new INTERESTING skills and things she can do.

Moving tombstones is alright… but it’s not as character defining as spawning your own dwarf star like Willow can.

The problem with Wendy (as Well as Wickerbottom, Maxwell & Wanda) they’re All incredibly broken OP because they’re Reworks came at a time when we did not have skill trees.

Interestingly enough, the reworks that DID come out closer to Skill Trees received tweaks and nerfs that skill trees helped to balance out.

Like: You can still have speed movement buff on Wolfgang, but it requires wasting a skill point to unlock, and it can’t be used in Mighty Mode anymore.

I have this sensible feeling that if Wendy’s Rework would’ve been released around the same time frame as her skill tree-

The Petal Debuff would require a skill point or two to unlock and faster bloom rate of Abigail’s flower would require skill tree investment.

Klei may even pull a full fledged Willow and Woodie on You: Aka- Forcing you to master only one skill and having to give up the other ones.

For Woodie you can Master one of his 3 forms but doing so locks you out of mastering the other two.

For Willow you can either get Better Bernie, or cool fire mage powers, but you can’t have both.

WENDY is broken levels of OP and her skill tree should’ve Forced players to choose between Petal boost bonus, or Instantly and Infinitely resummon Abigail.. but you shouldn’t be able to have BOTH for #Balance.

And if Klei would actually step on some peoples feelings & toes and “Nerf Wendy”

We could get a more interesting Skill Tree that isn’t just buffs in Abby’s damage and survivability.

Wendy may be OP before the rift update, but after that Wendy is just OK for now. This is same for Wanda. (Even I would argue that Wanda may be already "weak" in current game stage)

And Wickerbottom is suppose to be  something like current stage, you could say she is OP as well before the rework.

I keep my reservations about Maxwell. At least he need higher skill than other characters.

[Peasant]

11 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wendy’s skill tree should be used as both a way to nerf her original rework, AND as a Way to give her fun new INTERESTING skills and things she can do.

Moving tombstones is alright… but it’s not as character defining as spawning your own dwarf star like Willow can.

The problem with Wendy (as Well as Wickerbottom, Maxwell & Wanda) they’re All incredibly broken OP because they’re Reworks came at a time when we did not have skill trees.

Interestingly enough, the reworks that DID come out closer to Skill Trees received tweaks and nerfs that skill trees helped to balance out.

Like: You can still have speed movement buff on Wolfgang, but it requires wasting a skill point to unlock, and it can’t be used in Mighty Mode anymore.

I have this sensible feeling that if Wendy’s Rework would’ve been released around the same time frame as her skill tree-

The Petal Debuff would require a skill point or two to unlock and faster bloom rate of Abigail’s flower would require skill tree investment.

Klei may even pull a full fledged Willow and Woodie on You: Aka- Forcing you to master only one skill and having to give up the other ones.

For Woodie you can Master one of his 3 forms but doing so locks you out of mastering the other two.

For Willow you can either get Better Bernie, or cool fire mage powers, but you can’t have both.

WENDY is broken levels of OP and her skill tree should’ve Forced players to choose between Petal boost bonus, or Instantly and Infinitely resummon Abigail.. but you shouldn’t be able to have BOTH for #Balance.

And if Klei would actually step on some peoples feelings & toes and “Nerf Wendy”

We could get a more interesting Skill Tree that isn’t just buffs in Abby’s damage and survivability.

I don't quite think Wendy's case is similar to Woodie or Willow. Woodie got 3 forms and each provides a unique function, therefore it makes sense if you are required to choose one among them. Willow on the other hand had 2 aspects, one is bernie and one is her fire magic, so it is also reasonable to force the players to choose one between.

Wendy however is not the case. Wendy only had one aspect, that is, Abigail. She got Abigail, and got potions to strengthen Abogail, and got sisturn to speed Abigail's upgrade speed. Therefore choosing between vex or resummon isn't making any sense, for whichever you choose you end up boosting Abigail, while Wendy is still powerless at the absence of her sister.

Course I'm not saying that Wendy and Abigail should be viewed seperately. They are a whole, thus the skilltree should be focusing on their bind, make it harder for them to seperate, or cooperate, or whatever, instead of solely buffing Abigail.

[Lee lol]

8 hours ago, Mr Giggio said:

我有 11k 小时玩这个游戏。你猜怎么着。你为自己有时间扮演她而感到自豪，这很好，这里唯一模棱两可的是你不能限制经验，因为其他人不主要。我可能比你更了解她，但我们在这个话题上。嗯。

If you're willing to show me what an 11k hour player understands about Wendy, I'd love to listen.

2 hours ago, arubaro said:

Is funny how some people believe that only players who agree with them play wendy while the rest dont.

I will tell you a secret, you can play a character and dont want it to become stupid to keep enjoying it

I'm guessing you'd think Wendy's current skill tree is interesting and doesn't need to be changed. Will you enjoy playing Wendy's skill tree right now, or is it the complete opposite?

16 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Okay, but what is this thread supposed to even be about? What’s the main goal here? I think people should be allowed to express what they would like to see or desire on a character rather they have played that character for a literal decade (hey that’s me) or barely just started playing that Character (That’s also me with Walter!)

But I can totally see a suggestion of someone wanting Woby to be able to drag Walter out the water and be like “aww now that would totally be adorable, I want that!”

Do I main Walter? No.. will this make me play as Walter a whole lot more often? Probably not.. but would it be a charmingly cute interaction Between Walter & Woby? 100% absolutely!

The only thing that a desperately ask is that people NOT make suggestions that completely destroy the core gameplay loop of the character.

Anyone asking for Wendy to be able to get Abigail’s help with boss fights and shadow monsters either A: Doesn’t play with Wendy long enough to understand that those downsides are what makes some people enjoy playing as her.

Or B: Has played her enough.. but just wants her to be broken levels of OP getting abilities that completely destroys what was intended to be core challenges to playing as the character.

overall- I trust the developers at Klei know their characters far better than any of us forumites throwing suggestions ever will, so if they see a video of say for example Lunar Abigail ripping every boss a new one, when Wendy was never intended to be THAT good at fighting bosses…

I won’t be upset if they nerf or completely remove it because they don’t feel it fits their design intent.

(same as how they removed Glass Canon Wendy)

Perhaps some people who haven't played Wendy for a long time will also be able to make interesting and effective comments about the skill tree. But everyone should take responsibility for their own words, and when you make a point, you make a convincing argument instead of making some crude assertions or speculation, otherwise it will only waste everyone's time.

[Echsrick]

i played wendy before....way back then...i dont like her looks, i dont like her personality of allways mentioning killing herself, and i dont like her playstyle, actualy the one part i dit like got removed that being having to wait for the flower to be ready and wendy needing to do some sort of blood sacrifice to be able to summon abigal, but because i barely played wendy you cant say i am wrong in my oppinion

[arubaro]

3 hours ago, Lee lol said:

If you're willing to show me what an 11k hour player understands about Wendy, I'd love to listen.

I'm guessing you'd think Wendy's current skill tree is interesting and doesn't need to be changed. Will you enjoy playing Wendy's skill tree right now, or is it the complete opposite?

Perhaps some people who haven't played Wendy for a long time will also be able to make interesting and effective comments about the skill tree. But everyone should take responsibility for their own words, and when you make a point, you make a convincing argument instead of making some crude assertions or speculation, otherwise it will only waste everyone's time.

Is interesting and has room for changes like a nerf to gestal abigail