A Win is A Win

[Echsrick]

17 minutes ago, goblinball said:

Wortox having the monster tag and as such being bullied by pig men is a cute flavor downside, but nothing more. I don’t understand why ppl are acting like being able to remove that is such a big deal.

It basically just means it’ll be easier to base near pig king now. I really don’t think that being attacked by pigs was a key component to wortox’s character and playstyle. I won’t miss it now that it can be gone.

yea, goin to slaughter pigs even if i go nice, just goin to be less demanding at a momends notice if anything else

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Echsrick said:

only thing left is THE KNAPSACK being...well you heard me many times probably, about kidnapping medium sized creatures in unique sack inventory that can only hold stealable because it just fits more with the discribtion of wortox being close long enought with krampus


alsol the nice side sounds stronger then the naughty side

nice is pigs and stuff are ok with you while naughty just gives you a who knows how long timer if your soul count is to hight before you blow up half of your souls, wich is...not good, like you can just drop them and never face that issue ever

I’m 100% with you on this…

If a player specs too much “nice” they should be deemed as a traitor to their heritage of Krampi and the Krampi should spawn more often to attempt to beat up Wortox.

But there aren’t any really good Naughty perks to make anyone choose it over “nice” being able to embrace your Krampi side and run around stealing Beefalo like they do in his animated short would be useful, and hilariously fitting.

When naughty The pigs will still be hostile and punch him.. but… he can dodge their punch and shove em in the Bag LMAO.

10/10 gameplay right there. I’d have so much fun.

[Echsrick]

18 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m 100% with you on this…

If a player specs too much “nice” they should be deemed as a traitor to their heritage of Krampi and the Krampi should spawn more often to attempt to beat up Wortox.

But there aren’t any really good Naughty perks to make anyone choose it over “nice” being able to embrace your Krampi side and run around stealing Beefalo like they do in his animated short would be useful, and hilariously fitting.

When naughty The pigs will still be hostile and punch him.. but… he can dodge their punch and shove em in the Bag LMAO.

10/10 gameplay right there. I’d have so much fun.

yea, like some sort of downside of being full nice/naughty, nice being that you slowly gain krampus spawn points over the time, like i guess 1 point a day or that the spawn points dont reset over time for nice wortox

[OMEGASCRUFF]

I don't want this change, either. I honestly think it's fine if it diminishes this downside a bit, but full neutrality is not what I wanted to see. I'd rather it just changed how close you have to be to pull hostile mobs' aggro, by maybe half-ish.

I'm not really sure what downside this character has anymore. I wish they'd reconsider their approach, in general.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

10 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

Half value from foods? That's still there, I believe. 

Does this even matter, though? We have the Void Robe for sanity control, and hunger never mattered much.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

Just now, Fitzee said:

You asked if there were any downsides left; I simply answered. 

I don't care to join the debate, really. 

Absolutely fair and probably a good approach to the state of the Beta subforum at this point.

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Does this even matter, though? We have the Void Robe for sanity control, and hunger never mattered much.

Yeah, it does. Particularly for sanity.

If you get reductive enough and into end game loot, I guess no downsides matter. Maxwell's half health doesn't matter because eventually you get dreadstone and thulecite.

Wes downsides don't matter because you can get a nightmare saddle, eventually.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

6 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Yeah, it does. Particularly for sanity.

If you get reductive enough and into end game loot, I guess no downsides matter. Maxwell's half health doesn't matter because eventually you get dreadstone and thulecite.

You can pretty easily do Fuelweaver by day ~25, and heavy object Soul Hops just made day 1 shadow pieces much more doable if you want to rush it even quicker. This is before first Spring. I don't think this is actually endgame gear.

Edit: Don't get me started on Maxwell. He's the character I've put the most time into besides Wortox, and yes, he has a balancing problem. He's been top tier since his rework.

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

You can pretty easily do Fuelweaver by day ~25, and heavy object Soul Hops just made day 1 shadow pieces much more doable if you want to rush it even quicker. This is before first Spring. I don't think this is actually endgame gear.

I mean, most of this is technically true. Except the part about ink blight rift gear not being considered endgame gear. If that's not endgame gear, what is?

More importantly: if you're capable of killing fuelweaver by day 25, are you seriously having trouble with pigs and catcoons? I'm trying to grasp the internal logic here.

Also I'm not sure if most people consider a day 25 fuelweaver as easy.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

1 hour ago, Dingle said:

I mean, most of this is technically true. Except the part about ink blight rift gear not being considered endgame gear. If that's not endgame gear, what is?

More importantly: if you're capable of killing fuelweaver by day 25, are you seriously having trouble with pigs and catcoons? I'm trying to grasp the internal logic here.

Honestly, that's definitely an issue with this game in general and not related to any specific skill tree or the beta. This game doesn't really have "endgame" gear, so much as it has optimal gear that you can prioritize gaining access to as soon as possible. I will say, even with a character swap to Wilson, Celestial Champion seems much more challenging to access compared to Fuelweaver due to some minor time-gating and the amount of resources Pearl and Crab King cost, but it's still pretty doable in first Winter on a small server with good planning. Wortox has always been pretty great at rushing Fuelweaver, though, on his own, even before the beta.

But no, you're right. It's never been a huge issue that I couldn't befriend Pigmen. The only real threat the monster tag has is when going into a cave entrance and being greeted by a Bunnyman village right in front of you and no access to pausing. But it was inconvenient, wasting a few Souls at the very least in some scenarios, and did impact some base and build choices a little. (Amusingly, my most common obituary entry is "Bunnyman", so that has to account for something, right? Oof, I thought it would be a boss or Terrorbeak.)

Still, I think many of us can agree that skills that remove downsides entirely should be avoided in general when balancing characters, and I find it surprising Klei was willing to do this with the monster tag, when all the other skills also can address his other downsides and limitations. (Gotta say, I actually like the delay before overcharging, because it still means you have to actually do something about it, but it's a little more manageable and a random angry Abigail won't suddenly make you explode for killing two Butterflies. I think this is a much better approach to character downsides. We'll see how it looks once the update drops.)

Spoiler

Overall, this is a huge problem I have with the Wortox update in general, as he no longer has any real practical downsides and can now near-indefinitely spam his upsides. I actually truly enjoyed the old Wortox, though I know most players found the 20-Soul cap too constraining, and was regarded as his main limitation. I wouldn't have played this character almost nonstop since release if I fully agreed with this, but it did objectively impact his gameplay quite significantly (in a good way, I believe), especially once map teleports were implemented. But at the end of the day, you had to be smart with your resources, and now you don't. I believe this update made him a top tier character, even without the Neutral skill tree providing any real value at the moment.

tl;dr Maybe we should try to keep downsides and limitations, and fine tune them rather than removing them entirely, in general.

Edit: Eh, I guess the Howlitzer kinda counts as endgame due to the unlock requirements in addition to the farm requirements to make it more worthwhile.

[Dingle]

11 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Honestly, that's definitely an issue with this game in general and not related to any specific skill tree or the beta. This game doesn't really have "endgame" gear, so much as it has optimal gear that you can prioritize gaining access to as soon as possible. I will say, even with a character swap to Wilson, Celestial Champion seems much more challenging to access compared to Fuelweaver due to some minor time-gating and the amount of resources Pearl and Crab King cost, but it's still pretty doable in first Winter on a small server with good planning. Wortox has always been pretty great at rushing Fuelweaver, though, on his own, even before the beta.

But no, you're right. It's never been a huge issue that I couldn't befriend Pigmen. The only real threat the monster tag has is when going into a cave entrance and being greeted by a Bunnyman village right in front of you and no access to pausing. But it was inconvenient, wasting a few Souls at the very least in some scenarios, and did impact some base and build choices a little. (Amusingly, my most common obituary entry is "Bunnyman", so that has to account for something, right? Oof, I thought it would be a boss or Terrorbeak.)

Still, I think many of us can agree that skills that remove downsides entirely should be avoided in general when balancing characters, and I find it surprising Klei was willing to do this with the monster tag, when all the other skills also can address his other downsides and limitations. (Gotta say, I actually like the delay before overcharging, because it still means you have to actually do something about it, but it's a little more manageable and a random angry Abigail won't suddenly make you explode for killing two Butterflies. I think this is a much better approach to character downsides. We'll see how it looks once the update drops.)
 

  Hide contents

Overall, this is a huge problem I have with the Wortox update in general, as he no longer has any real practical downsides and can now near-indefinitely spam his upsides. I actually truly enjoyed the old Wortox, though I know most players found the 20-Soul cap too constraining, and was regarded as his main limitation. I wouldn't have played this character almost nonstop since release if I fully agreed with this, but it did objectively impact his gameplay quite significantly (in a good way, I believe), especially once map teleports were implemented. But at the end of the day, you had to be smart with your resources, and now you don't. I believe this update made him a top tier character, even without the Neutral skill tree providing any real value at the moment.

tl;dr Maybe we should try to keep downsides and limitations, and fine tune them rather than removing them entirely, in general.

I see. Really just a principle of "keeping the downside theme" at this point.

If its a huge deal for people, I guess I'd rather see the "no longer seen as monster" bonus replaced entirely. If you try to keep it but shoehorn an extra penalty in to "balance" it, I just would want to avoid Nice at all costs. I don't see the bonus as much of an advantage for me already, and actively trying to get Nice alignment limits your builds in pretty severe ways unless you love Soul Bastion II or really hate Naughty and don't want to grab an alignment.

Too bad, I think it would have been liked mostly by newer players.

[loonreaper]

15 hours ago, Jazzuo said:

yeah, actually you deal more dps if you hop instead of kitting, and with the longer duration and 2 soul echo, you can actually improve a lot of dps to wortox by hopping

nope, it was removed the planar damage, so the knabsack can't get it, it was made so now the knabsack is an early-mid game dark sword cheaper and easier to get and better most of the casses

How does the double reaper work exactly? Do you deal 2x TWICE if you have the double echo skill tree? Should the pattern be something like 3 hits then soul hop into 3 hits? I'm not sure how to install the damage health bar mod so I haven't been able to really experiment. I notice some bosses are still hard for me (like the Twins) while others are easier like DragonFly, the seasonal bosses. If something unexpected happens like hounds appear while I'm fighting dfly I can die pretty easily. So I rush to AFW (around day 25). This I don't do with wortox on the console (Switch) because it'd be impossible or nearly anyhow without an overtly strong character. So I usually have  a void cowl + mag + void reaper by spring time. 

Does anyone have tips in general? Or tricks they've found? (Besides the soul piercer butterfly thing)