Okay but what if we put down the nerf gun

[HellHeater]

It's nerf of nothin

[Jakepeng99]

2 hours ago, hyoton123 said:

I will say that I think it is very appropriate that wurt players apparently cannot control themselves and create an appropriate number of merm structures, but instead are insisting on training mass overkill numbers of merms to be vicious killers, installing a figurehead leader, throwing their lives away, and grossly mutating them or ridding them of their mortal shells and turning them into horrible shadow monsters, and insisting that someone else has to stop them. The uncontrollable hunger for power is very Don’t Starveian.

Even 4 merms with all the skills makes Wurt top teir.

[Y0sH]

3 hours ago, HellHeater said:

It's nerf of nothin

Had a T3 Nerf Football in the early 2000s, loved that thing lol

[Cats_On_Fire]

18 hours ago, Cats_On_Fire said:

What do you want me to do, give the moon a gun and have your areas constantly be hit with metors while your playing the game

This was sarcasm. So you want nerfs. Here's some simple ones, monsters no longer drop monster meat and the survivors consider it inedable  . There no more easy meat balls. Beefalo only drop one meat so do kolefants and every giant(deerclops) Crops only grow in autumn and spring. And hounds no longer drop gems. And to prevent farms pig houses, bunny hutches are no longer build able bananas bushes only grow on the muddy turf inside the ruins biome. Worms only drop one monster meat. Wobster dinner and bisque only heal 10 hp. Look I am just spit balling but I am sure I missed something. If you want to be starved out these are the changes that need to be made.

[Mike23Ua]

Considering that Wendy now has ways to help with boss fights and shadows and Wortox can now quite literally become friendly to mobs that for his entire existence up till this point had been hostile to him….

I feel like Klei is using skill trees as a way to Erase character defining downsides.

Its time to just accept that the franchise has gone away from giving characters downsides that actually matter anymore and has now just become a give ‘em all these crazy perks so they can reach super sayain stage 11. 
 

I personally don’t like it, that’s not the franchise I was brought into when it first started, it’s not what I bought the game to enjoy… and I doubt Klei has ever ONE TIME considered that maybe just maybe… people actually buy characters FOR Their Downsides?

I know I personally bought Wormwood for his harder time healing, and Wortox because getting attacked by pigs & Catcoon were funny downsides.

Unfortunately we live in a new Era of DS where I’m seriously worried Wickerbottoms skill tree will provide her with a sleeping pill to sleep and she can still spam books at Zero Sanity.. 

While we’re at it why don’t we remove Wobys bucking animation to throw Walter off her back and instead let him use her as a Day 1 Beefalo?

I mean to be fair.. it wouldn’t be much different from a Beefalo Bell & Saddle on a Wild Beefalo.

Maybe I’m just complaining for the sake of complaining… but it just feels sad to watch a franchise I enjoyed FOR its challenges remove those challenges in favor of completely optional boss fights as it’s only challenges left to enjoy.

[Cats_On_Fire]

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wickerbottoms skill tree 

She's been busted since day one. Yeah I want more challenges but I feel like klei got really disincentived after they added the ocean and people didn't really care. 

[Castiliano]

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Considering that Wendy now has ways to help with boss fights and shadows and Wortox can now quite literally become friendly to mobs that for his entire existence up till this point had been hostile to him….

I feel like Klei is using skill trees as a way to Erase character defining downsides.

Its time to just accept that the franchise has gone away from giving characters downsides that actually matter anymore and has now just become a give ‘em all these crazy perks so they can reach super sayain stage 11. 
 

I personally don’t like it, that’s not the franchise I was brought into when it first started, it’s not what I bought the game to enjoy… and I doubt Klei has ever ONE TIME considered that maybe just maybe… people actually buy characters FOR Their Downsides?

I know I personally bought Wormwood for his harder time healing, and Wortox because getting attacked by pigs & Catcoon were funny downsides.

Unfortunately we live in a new Era of DS where I’m seriously worried Wickerbottoms skill tree will provide her with a sleeping pill to sleep and she can still spam books at Zero Sanity.. 

While we’re at it why don’t we remove Wobys bucking animation to throw Walter off her back and instead let him use her as a Day 1 Beefalo?

I mean to be fair.. it wouldn’t be much different from a Beefalo Bell & Saddle on a Wild Beefalo.

Maybe I’m just complaining for the sake of complaining… but it just feels sad to watch a franchise I enjoyed FOR its challenges remove those challenges in favor of completely optional boss fights as it’s only challenges left to enjoy.

Sadly I really agree with this here. Wortox has been my main for years and one of the things I always loved about him was was trying to control his sanity while eating souls. I remember that I never liked the insertion of him gaining sanity by dropping souls — it doesn't matter if it was just "a little" sanity — it just seemed like Klei was listening to a few people and inserting something nosense to make the character's gameplay easier. Overall, I'm loving the skill tree, but with a certain regret and acceptance that downsides are no longer a thing, in general.

P.S. the new measure scale in Wortox's skill tree could only mitigate the losses and gains, not taking them off completely.

[Mysterious box]

[Theukon-dos]

13 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Not exactly, since nerfing characters inherently feels worse than buffing them, and it's not a value you can simply have a slider for. Also, nerfing or buffing characters changes the core gameplay experience for those characters, whereas giving us slider options for boss health is a simple tweak, would be pretty easy to code in (plenty of modders have done it), and only really changes how long a fight takes.

I have been an advocate of player-based HP scaling (particularly for bosses) for a long time now and I agree that it'd be quicker for them to do, but they're not just trying to balance characters with rifts and skill trees. They're adding new endgame content and new options for playstyles. Balancing is only part of what skill trees are for.
Combat Wormwood used to be practically nonexistent and he basically just used to be for farming crops, but now he can be genuinely helpful in fights in unique ways (the spore clouds from his moon shrooms come to mind - they let you disable Klaus's deer for your teammates without enraging him if you're consistent with it, and that's just one example), farm crops, or farm mushrooms, and he gets even better post-rifts. 
Then there's Willow, who's basically an entirely different (and vastly more worthwhile) character after her skill tree. 

Back on the subject of scaling: I'd like to point out that simply reducing a boss's HP isn't always the best move to make it more suitable for being fought alone. Bee Queen, for instance - her problem's not that she has too much health, it's that she summons so many minions that if you're not Wendy, you'll want an army to fight her with, or you have to build some X-shaped fence structure that the bees go around when you have her chase you across it to buy yourself some time to actually fight her. A more reasonable scaling option for Bee Queen would be turning down (or up) the number of grumble bees summoned depending on how many players there are.
Meanwhile, Toadstool is a boss where reducing/increasing HP is a good scaling option. Each should be given scaling on a case-by-case basis. 
I also feel that you should be able to turn off boss scaling in the world options so that you can have the current experience, or even disable or enable it for specific bosses.

For your first point, the thing here is that the only reason nerfs are necessary is because Klei's buffing everyone to hell and back. Pre-skill trees, the only characters that needed nerfed where Maxwell and Wanda. Everyone else was either fine or could use some tuning. But those where the only real nerfs needed. But now Wurt can lead an army of merms powerful enough to kill Gods. Willow can summon a bear so hard to take down that you'd probably have an easier time knocking down the Berlin Wall. And Wolfgang got even moar damage on top of his already great 2x. It's as they say, you reap what you sow.

Second, while I'm sure there were other motivations behind rift content. Balancing combat characters was a major idea behind it. It was a horrible idea riddled with flaws, and I'm honestly very confident that skill trees only exist because Klei realized that this was a horrible idea and needed to course-correct. Because how else would you explain why planar damage ignores a character's damage modifiers?

Third, as for the skill trees themselves, you're just describing the problem. Skill trees aren't about balance, they're about buffing. Brawler Wormwood was never an option before becuase Wormwood wasn't meant to be a brawler. If anything, he wanted to avoid combat as much as possible. But Klei decided that being good at killing bosses is the only thing that matters in a character, so now everyone is a brawler. Willow's a brawler, Woodie's a brawler, Winona's a brawler. At this rate you can expect Wes to have a skill tree perk that makes his baloons deal 50 damage when they pop instead of 5.

If they where about opening up new playstyles, then how come the characters who where already good at fighting didn't get any perks to open up less combat-oriented playstyles? Wurt and Wolfgang got perks that slightly increase their abilities to do things out of combat, sure. But nowhere near to the scale of Willow super Bernie and fire magic, or many of Wormwood's new perks.

We already had a tool for having different playstyles. It's called "picking a different character". And Ironically, the addition of skill trees is just making the cast all the more homogenus because, again, Klei has decided that the only playstyle that matters is being good at killing bosses.

 

And fourth, bosses don't have to just scale with HP. The options you presented are still very much within the realm of possibility and would still be a fraction of the work compared to what they're doing now.

[DegenerateFurry]

2 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

And fourth, bosses don't have to just scale with HP. The options you presented are still very much within the realm of possibility and would still be a fraction of the work compared to what they're doing now.

I'll address this without touching the skill tree stuff because I feel like the skill tree stuff is more a matter of opinion, and that it's ignoring how central combat is to this game, especially for the solo player experience (which a recent poll indicates is how most players play). 

I agree. Klei should do scaling options that affect things like Grumble Bee/Sporecap/Woven Shadow spawns. I've actually played with a mod that lets me configure Ancient Fuelweaver to summon less Woven Shadows and Unseen Hands, and it makes him way more bearable to fight solo as a normal character. Just giving people that option in world settings would put an end to most debates about him. 

[Cats_On_Fire]

9 hours ago, SSneaky said:

...

How about we.

Just nerf the characters that need to be nerfed the most (max, wanda, wortox,  wurt Wolfgang, Winona).

Welp, counter argument time:

All of these are overkill and are only a fraction of what uncompromising mode mode's changes are like.

Now to be more exact

Monmeat is fine overall I think.

You have to be careful using it in pots and it (****ing eventually) makes loads rot.

Farm Crops in winter are ok?

Theres 1/3rd the time that they cannot grow unless there's a light source that emits "sunlight"

And randon seeds don't like winter or summer, and you need 3 different crops in winter to fulfill a combo (asparagus,  pumpkin or carrots,  and potatoes).

Wobster dinner needs butter,  beefalo have herd mentality and and koolaphants are scared and are faster than u.

Giants are dummy rare and always a bit of a challenge. Tbh they should drop 1  Giant sized meat.

Banana bushes just shouldn't grow when the world gets too cold (like below 15-20 degrees)

Pig farms are a little hard to set up, + costs boards and cut stone you don't get back.

Also pigs have a long respawn timer. (Atleast in comparison to bunnymen and merms )

Honestly meatballs just need a stat nerf to 55/57.5 hunger. (Compared to 62.5)

It's overkill or nothing 

Okay meatballs will be moved to be on par with ratatouille to make starvation more likely.

Wurt can no longer build merm houses and merms loyalty can no longer be refreshed. The merm king no longer spawns guards. Her tools are fine. Her merm armor now needs pigskin and rope and is slightly more durable. Her kelp dish only helps with recruit merms. Also merm loyalty only lasts half a day. Shadow merms only last 30 seconds.

Max well will now loses 5 hp every time a combat summon dies. Making him take slow attrition. The only armor that will give him any kind of defense is night armor and everything else will provide zero protection. Also due to his frail nature. Attempting to ride a beefalo will result in him getting hit off if he takes 50 or more damage while in combat. He only gets 5-15% recharge. (This may need to be tuned).

A simple and effective nerf for Wanda is to just increase the aging rate whenever she gets hit in combat putting her on the clock if she ever gets hit (your passive age rate increases to 1 a minute) . Thus making the glass cannon playstyle even harder. Her utility watches are other wise fine. Maybe nerf the healing watch by 1-3 age. Then she'll be fine. And maybe reduce the repair rate of the alarming clock to 10% per fuel

We can simply break Wolfgang's kneecaps. By if he takes too much damage he will freeze up in place let's say 100 damage not including armor so if he were to take 2 hits from deer clops he is rendered immobile for two more hits. Also armor will not auto equip in this time. And he needs more I simply say reduce his damage multiplier to 1.5x making him more comparable to wigfrid. 

And apart from free revives from Charlie winnoa is fine

 

Also it is overkill or nothing I would rather under tune everything for a nerf. Then bring it back up to snuff in the beta.

Also stone fruit only grows in winter

Also very curious what you think

10 hours ago, SSneaky said:

...

How about we.

Just nerf the characters that need to be nerfed the most (max, wanda, wortox,  wurt Wolfgang, Winona).

Welp, counter argument time:

All of these are overkill and are only a fraction of what uncompromising mode mode's changes are like.

Now to be more exact

Monmeat is fine overall I think.

You have to be careful using it in pots and it (****ing eventually) makes loads rot.

Farm Crops in winter are ok?

Theres 1/3rd the time that they cannot grow unless there's a light source that emits "sunlight"

And randon seeds don't like winter or summer, and you need 3 different crops in winter to fulfill a combo (asparagus,  pumpkin or carrots,  and potatoes).

Wobster dinner needs butter,  beefalo have herd mentality and and koolaphants are scared and are faster than u.

Giants are dummy rare and always a bit of a challenge. Tbh they should drop 1  Giant sized meat.

Banana bushes just shouldn't grow when the world gets too cold (like below 15-20 degrees)

Pig farms are a little hard to set up, + costs boards and cut stone you don't get back.

Also pigs have a long respawn timer. (Atleast in comparison to bunnymen and merms )

Honestly meatballs just need a stat nerf to 55/57.5 hunger. (Compared to 62.5)

To talk on monster meat briefly. I feel it is too easy to obtain. So we will be buffing spiders to do 50 damage and have 300 HP. Though thier kitting pattern will remain the same spider warriors will now deal 60 and keep their hp of 400. Depths dwellers will stay as is with a buff to damage at 30. Simply because there's so many of them in the places they exist. As for Webber nurses now only heal 50 to deal with the buffed spiders meaning they can no longer out heal bosses. However values may have to be tuned. And Abigail can no longer stunlock spiders.

Also let's just add the farm nerf to bannas and berry bushes.

While we're on food lobster bisque was the main one. Since it heals for 60 and is easy to get. Tunning it to 20 or lower works.

Beefalo heard mentality almost never comes into play. And kolephants do need to be chased so the extra reward is the trunk

I want pigs to feel like a finite resource and I don't think survivors should have an endless supply of pigskin pushing you towards endgame and repairable armor. 

I think I covered everything @SSneaky

[hyoton123]

On 11/28/2024 at 9:15 PM, SSneaky said:

Ah yes it's you fault for making the game too easy...

@Jakepeng99 I geuss we where just doing it wrong, it seems it's our fault that wurts op because we're using her as intended.

You can just make fewer merms and do things earlier. I think we're using different definitions of easy here.

[hyoton123]

On 11/28/2024 at 10:57 PM, Jakepeng99 said:

Even 4 merms with all the skills makes Wurt top teir.

Are you including king of the merms and farming all the other stuff for them as "4 merms" or is that 4 basic merm guards?

[hyoton123]

Just now, SSneaky said:

ah yes its our fault for making the game easi-...

I mean, you can beat bosses by grinding marble, healing and a ham bat. That's all the merms are in combat. Sometimes they kill stuff you don't mean to, I guess.

[hyoton123]

1 minute ago, SSneaky said:

"with all the skills"

read.

Okay, then it's not just four merms and the wetness tree, it's a bunch of fully buffed merms that take time to make. I simply don't have a problem with it. You guys are in control of your game. This is what I mean about how wurt incentivizes what I feel are very appropriate ways to play DST.

[hyoton123]

Just now, SSneaky said:

merms can die at no cost to you.

they can be made followers with just SEEDS.

SEEDS FOR CRIKES SAKE

Marble and eggs/meat/veggies are not hard to farm, just time consuming. In DST I think rewarding time investment is a perfectly fine thing. It's (ideally) MP. You aren't going to always get the best players in the world in your games, and people who don't want to play the game should be able to play wurt or spam healing. You're still going to have to sail the world for pearl and do fetch quests, pop fuelweaver's insanity shielding guys, wander around to find ink blights. I think it's healthier than wanda's effects (I don't like wanda; I don't think she's overpowered, but I don't like her design.)

2 minutes ago, SSneaky said:

... @Jakepeng99 could you deal with this forumite?

Okay, fine, I'll give you a wurt nerf.

*Wurt can only have two merm followers at a time. King of the merms increases this to three.

*Wurt's bonuses from the king of the merms are reduced by 90%.

*Shadow merms despawn after 1 day. Mutated merms die after 1 day and don't give drops.

*Wurt and merms don't eat seeds.

*The king of the merms will die at the end of every season.

[Jakepeng99]

26 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

Okay, then it's not just four merms and the wetness tree, it's a bunch of fully buffed merms that take time to make. I simply don't have a problem with it. You guys are in control of your game. This is what I mean about how wurt incentivizes what I feel are very appropriate ways to play DST.

Merms are easy to make since you just have to grind some basic resources. Once you have even 15 with the skills, the game becomes kinda trivalised. You may be fine with this, but some Wurt players who enjoyed building up their merm army feel very harmed because of this because she is too strong now.

25 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

Marble and eggs/meat/veggies are not hard to farm, just time consuming. In DST I think rewarding time investment is a perfectly fine thing. It's (ideally) MP. You aren't going to always get the best players in the world in your games, and people who don't want to play the game should be able to play wurt or spam healing. You're still going to have to sail the world for pearl and do fetch quests, pop fuelweaver's insanity shielding guys, wander around to find ink blights. I think it's healthier than wanda's effects (I don't like wanda; I don't think she's overpowered, but I don't like her design.)

Merms are basically the same as Wandas effects. Make them once, you have them forever. Its a one time effort.

Other methods like gunpowder cost a lot of resources each time you use them, which is more healthy.

[hyoton123]

5 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Merms are easy to make since you just have to grind some basic resources. Once you have even 15 with the skills, the game becomes kinda trivalised. You may be fine with this, but some Wurt players who enjoyed building up their merm army feel very harmed because of this because she is too strong now.

Merms are basically the same as Wandas effects. Make them once, you have them forever. Its a one time effort.

Other methods like gunpowder cost a lot of resources each time you use them, which is more healthy.

Okay but you don't need to build 15. That's what I'm saying. Like is it fun to have a giant army of bad followers? If so...well, that's webber (don't even get me started on webber's design). I get it but gameplay wise, wurt has a really high ceiling she can build to. I imagine you could skip the king of the merms and then your merm guards are REALLY shitty. Like all of her stuff is optional. You literally just don't need to power the guards up at all. I'm just not sure what you expect from a fully kitted out wurt. 

 

To give context, I used to lowman FFXI content back in the day when you were extremely not supposed to do that. This was harder than doing it in a group, but the point was that it was more fun that way. Sometimes you just create your own challenges because it's more fun like that. You don't have to use every tool a game designer gives you.

 

Re: investment: I don't have a problem with frontloading costs. Insofar as any part of the game is the most valuable, the earliest part of the game is the most valuable. If you have to do this for every single world you want to play as wurt then that's an appropriate cost. That said I don't really think merms are a one time costt? You still need to feed and manage them. It's closer to calling a beefalo a one time cost (especially the ornery) - there is a fair amount of management afterwards required for where you take the beef.

Re: power: Wig gets a speed boost, huge damage, dash, AOE, electrical (to proc goats??) and infinite repairability and it's portable in one slot, and doesn't require rifts. Merms require an upfront cost and massive game knowledge to figure out what you need to get, and you need to drag them around to varying degrees. Players should be rewarded for knowing that the lunar island is out there full of kelp to feed merms, and players should be rewarded for investing 100+ boards into buildings. 

 

Gunpowder...kinda? Like for anyone but Wilson i kind of agree, it's a skip boss button you only press one or two times a world. But wilson can just massproduce it. "Skilltree wilson is the nitre guy" is an entirely different rant by me though...

 

Like I get that merms are on the high end of follower, but I think that's fine. It comes off a bit as humble bragging.

[dst_lover]

37 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

 

Okay, fine, I'll give you a wurt nerf.

*Wurt can only have two merm followers at a time. King of the merms increases this to three.

*Wurt's bonuses from the king of the merms are reduced by 90%.

*Shadow merms despawn after 1 day. Mutated merms die after 1 day and don't give drops.

*Wurt and merms don't eat seeds.

*The king of the merms will die at the end of every season.

Did you even listen to what we went ? Because we doesn’t went those bad decisions 

we went good nerf not bad ones 

1 the first change is very bad the idea of wurt is to build a kingdom not to have 10 or 3 merms kill all your bosses but to have a nice kingdom full of merms this change will only hurt wurt and the nerf is weird because it’s punishing people who went to work hard on their kingdom be limiting their houses number 

2 why ? the bonus buffs doesn’t make wurt op did you even play wurt or listen to the nerf we asked for in all posts we mad so far? 
3 the problem with shadow merm 1 they are literally free 2 they are too strong because they are literally make it so every merm is twice as powerful for free and have the merm with infinite loyalty and immunity for affects + how strong and cheap is the shadow Mudslinger compared to the lunar mudslinger that is literally more expensive and weaker and + nobody asked for the lunar affinity to get a nerf because it’s weaker then the shadow affinity by a big difference 

4 I am actually ok with this nerf but this nerf will do nothing actually because kelp is batter 

5 nobody asked or went this ? 
what we asked to nerf the op parts of the skill tree and to give wurt himself a little nerf with his merms you can find our post in general of what kind of nerfs we went instead of assuming 

[hyoton123]

1 minute ago, dst_lover said:

Did you even listen to what we went ? Because we doesn’t went those bad decisions 

we went good nerf not bad ones 

1 the first change is very bad the idea of wurt is to build a kingdom not to have 10 or 3 merms kill all your bosses but to have a nice kingdom full of merms this change will only hurt wurt and the nerf is weird because it’s punishing people who went to work hard on their kingdom be limiting their houses number 

2 why ? the bonus buffs doesn’t make wurt op did you even play wurt or listen to the nerf we asked for in all posts we mad so far? 
3 the problem with shadow merm 1 they are literally free 2 they are too strong because they are literally make it so every merm is twice as powerful for free and have the merm with infinite loyalty and immunity for affects + how strong and cheap is the shadow Mudslinger compared to the lunar mudslinger that is literally more expensive and weaker and + nobody asked for the lunar affinity to get a nerf because it’s weaker then the shadow affinity by a big difference 

4 I am actually ok with this nerf but this nerf will do nothing actually because kelp is batter 

5 nobody asked or went this ? 
what we asked to nerf the op parts of the skill tree and to give wurt himself a little nerf with his merms you can find our post in general of what kind of nerfs we went instead of assuming 

I think these changes would be in line with coat of carrots/OMB interactions and would actually address your actual complaints rather than encouraging people to grind twice as many merms. To be clear I don't think the current system even has any problems, but if you want a nerf, here's what I'm saying would make sense.

That said I'll be honest the bonus king of the merms buff is because I personally don't really think stat monster wurt makes any sense whatsoever.

[dst_lover]

2 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

I think these changes would be in line with coat of carrots/OMB interactions and would actually address your actual complaints rather than encouraging people to grind twice as many merms. To be clear I don't think the current system even has any problems, but if you want a nerf, here's what I'm saying would make sense.

That said I'll be honest the bonus king of the merms buff is because I personally don't really think stat monster wurt makes any sense whatsoever.

This is what we went this is what real wurt mains went is to grind more then every one else and to be at the top after that not to get everything in couple of days we went to hark hard and to grind! There is nothing more beautiful then this

[Jakepeng99]

12 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

Okay but you don't need to build 15. That's what I'm saying. Like is it fun to have a giant army of bad followers? If so...well, that's webber (don't even get me started on webber's design). I get it but gameplay wise, wurt has a really high ceiling she can build to. I imagine you could skip the king of the merms and then your merm guards are REALLY shitty. Like all of her stuff is optional. You literally just don't need to power the guards up at all. I'm just not sure what you expect from a fully kitted out wurt. 

Even before her skilltree, the fact she had a really high ceiling was frowned upon by many late game players- not my words but many found her boring and she made the late game so uninteresting and pointless- they could easily farm every boss.

I want to work very hard to try achieve a powerful army, not put less work on purpouse to try achieve a balanced army. Wurt's combat before her skilltree did not need any additions, utility was the area they should have focused with since new combat merm stuff doesnt let Wurt players do anything new that they couldnt do before. Now instead of merms putting a big dent in celestial champion, they fully kill her. Letting merms dodge, take less damage, and be able to crit was really overkill.