People Seem to be Forgetting Something About "Balance"

[Yolo-Kouhai]

DST isn't balanced from the start, you have a character who can do double damage for little cost, and now almost no cost. You have a character that does 25% more damage and takes 25% less damage! Every boss is super learnable. Kiting exists! Don't Starve is balanced in a Don't Starve way, not traditionally, this isn't League of Legends where if a character goes over 50% winrate it's busted. If Klei truly cared about traditional balance, why are these still here..? If we truly wanna talk about balancing the game, buff items that are almost useless. The rabbit king cudgel is obtainable in the swamp for free at no sanity cost (tentacle spike). The Weather Pain is worthless outside of 2 fights when you're playing solo. Breezy Vest, tell me when you've made a breezy vest, everyone makes a dapper vest for Pearl instead. Fashion goggles, used to make another item, same stats as the top hat. Belt of hunger, it's only really good on Warly, and even then, who doesn't just fast and then make 2 different dishes? Cat Cap, don't even need to explain that one. Fire darts, Electric darts, Sleep darts, who has made these? just make a staff, panflute or Volt Goat chaud. Scarecrow, only purpose is to fight a boss that is the same as an easier boss. Napsack, wtf. Tail o' Three Cats... Strident Trident. MORNING STAR. SCALEMAIL, COOKIE CUTTER CAP, RAIN HAT, NIGHT LIGHT, FEATHER HAT, ICE CUBE, FASHION MELON, DREADSTONE WALL! All of these items could be useful, yet they only have niche uses.

TDLR: DST has it's own unique balance, the balance is not being destroyed by skilltrees. Instead we should focus on the unbalanced worthless items that clog up the game.
 

[Evelo]

Yeah, some bad things need to be buffed up because they are useless but simultaneously, we could also ensure that we don't make the game a cake walk. But maybe rift content will actually add challenges possibly. Rictus is so far the only tricky thing from my experience and it isn't that tricky either. Many games aren't fun if there is no obstacle. Even very peaceful and casual games have an obstacle of some kind. Lowering it too could ruin the experience. It already is for me and some other fourmites.

[Yolo-Kouhai]

42 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Yeah, some bad things need to be buffed up because they are useless but simultaneously, we could also ensure that we don't make the game a cake walk. But maybe rift content will actually add challenges possibly. Rictus is so far the only tricky thing from my experience and it isn't that tricky either. Many games aren't fun if there is no obstacle. Even very peaceful and casual games have an obstacle of some kind. Lowering it too could ruin the experience. It already is for me and some other fourmites.

The game isn't a cakewalk though? For a lot of people the game is hard. I still find difficulties with certain aspects despite having enough hours to earn 10k$+ at an 8$ per hour salary. My friend who has almost quadruple that still thinks the game is hard. I doubt that more than 4% of the player base finds the game a cakewalk.

[arubaro]

Aside of what @Evelosaid you need to also take into account that a wide variety of characters with different gameplays and powerlevels makes the game way rich than simply buffing every character to be as strong as wolfgang, wigfrid, wanda or maxwell

A lot of people dont enjoy op characters while a lot of people enjoy them the same way there are people who enjoy wes and a people who dont. What makes no sense is to make characters like wurt the brain dead character she become

Is curious how i never read someone saying "fw is very strong, why this other boss isnt as strong". This only happens to buff characters, gives you something to think about

 

Edit. Also making characters strong makes the player dont look after interesting mechanics and items because become an unnecessary overkill like magic items or recruiting pigs or bunnymen. This makes the game so bland in such ammount of aspects...

[Jakepeng99]

I disagree, when things become too strong it can ruin power dynamics which can make the game less fun. The "weak" items you mentioned are all decent except the cookie hat.

And rain hat.

[Evelo]

1 hour ago, Jakepeng99 said:

items you mentioned are all decent except the cookie hat.

Hold up, I didn't even notice the Cookie Cutter Cap was in the pile of slander. That item is great. More HP than football helmet and available without spending resources on establishing a pig farm. Though it does just become useless once you get dreadstone but most items are like that for day to day use.

 

I also forgot to mention the homogenization of characters. It is a big deal and can quickly sour the experience of a game. If everyone can do everything, then does who you play actually matter? Downsides and Upsides were once upon a time, the essence of each character in the game. I hope someday we get a patch that gives every character notable downsides again that you actually have to play around.

[cropo]

3 minutes ago, Evelo said:

I hope someday we get a patch that gives every character notable downsides again that you actually have to play around.

I would argue the game never got downsides right, even in Singleplayer. In Singleplayer it was just the opposite problem, the characters downsides limited them far too much and their upsides were just awful with the exception of a few like WX who were just flat out broken beyond all measure.

There was never really a time where they struck a good balance with downsides; it's just that no one was knowledgeable enough about the game back then to point them out.

[RussoDaFederal]

5 hours ago, Yolo-Kouhai said:

DST isn't balanced from the start, you have a character who can do double damage for little cost, and now almost no cost. You have a character that does 25% more damage and takes 25% less damage! Every boss is super learnable. Kiting exists! Don't Starve is balanced in a Don't Starve way, not traditionally, this isn't League of Legends where if a character goes over 50% winrate it's busted. If Klei truly cared about traditional balance, why are these still here..? If we truly wanna talk about balancing the game, buff items that are almost useless. The rabbit king cudgel is obtainable in the swamp for free at no sanity cost (tentacle spike). The Weather Pain is worthless outside of 2 fights when you're playing solo. Breezy Vest, tell me when you've made a breezy vest, everyone makes a dapper vest for Pearl instead. Fashion goggles, used to make another item, same stats as the top hat. Belt of hunger, it's only really good on Warly, and even then, who doesn't just fast and then make 2 different dishes? Cat Cap, don't even need to explain that one. Fire darts, Electric darts, Sleep darts, who has made these? just make a staff, panflute or Volt Goat chaud. Scarecrow, only purpose is to fight a boss that is the same as an easier boss. Napsack, wtf. Tail o' Three Cats... Strident Trident. MORNING STAR. SCALEMAIL, COOKIE CUTTER CAP, RAIN HAT, NIGHT LIGHT, FEATHER HAT, ICE CUBE, FASHION MELON, DREADSTONE WALL! All of these items could be useful, yet they only have niche uses.

TDLR: DST has it's own unique balance, the balance is not being destroyed by skilltrees. Instead we should focus on the unbalanced worthless items that clog up the game.
 

Not to be rude, but I've never seen a post that I disagree more than this one. I usually ignore stuff that I didagree with, but your definition of what's balanced and unbalanced doesn't make sense at all to me. There is no such thing as a "don't starve balance". Balancing games is more objective and isn't as easy as some people in this forum seem to think. At this point, after 10 years since the game released, there are outdated items, sure, but what would you rather do? Remove some items completely? Even when Klei introduced the new farming system they didn't remove the old farms from servers that still had them. Not only you exaggerated and mentioned some items that are completely fine, you forget that there are other play styles and people who just want to have fun even if they're using a weak item. I've used most of the items you mentioned even knowing they're weak, but they're fun too. Their damage and stats may be bad but their secondary effects are at least fun. To this day I can't convince my wife not to use the cat cap, she thinks it's pretty, and she manages to survive using a weak item. So I can't really complain there. Anyway, back to the topic at hand, it's unfair to cite items that are either niche or outdated to compare to people's suggestions for balancing the game. I disagree with a lot of suggestions, but dismissing them just because "the game isn't balanced from the start" is definitely not the way to go.

[Cheggf]

DST used to be very well balanced, it only started becoming unbalanced in the past couple years. 

[gaymime]

12 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

To this day I can't convince my wife not to use the cat cap, she thinks it's pretty, and she manages to survive using a weak item.

i 100% approve of your wife's good taste!

[Fufuji]

My opinion: balance serves for making the game more fun (rather than challenge). Characters/items too powerful could ruin battles or survival gameplay experience, while characters/items too weak leads to less people willing to use them. Both situations have the same consequence that playable content for players are effectively reduced.

No matter buff or nerf, if the balance change enriches players' effective playable content, then it is a nice balance.

[RexySeven]

2 hours ago, RussoDaFederal said:

To this day I can't convince my wife not to use the cat cap, she thinks it's pretty, and she manages to survive using a weak item.

I do that too
Admiring drip is more important than practicality

[Yolo-Kouhai]

1 hour ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Not to be rude, but I've never seen a post that I disagree more than this one. I usually ignore stuff that I didagree with, but your definition of what's balanced and unbalanced doesn't make sense at all to me. There is no such thing as a "don't starve balance". Balancing games is more objective and isn't as easy as some people in this forum seem to think.

Balancing games is not objective. Something that'd be completely absurd in a competitive game is fine in a multiplayer coop game. The game may have special exceptions because of it's unique mechanics. The player may think something is unbalanced when it's completely balanced in the context of the game. My point is; why are we criticizing Klei over balance when the game has never been balanced, it's not supposed to be balanced, it's supposed to be a fun challenge. Characters downsides are still there and effective. Characters are still fun and difficult in some areas. You may have to do X to overcome this characters downsides but Y is more important, but you need X to live successfully, but Y is imminent and difficult in your current state. Wurt still needs an abundance of resources to supply and create her mermdom. Which can take up time away from farming and getting a stable food source.

 

2 hours ago, RussoDaFederal said:

At this point, after 10 years since the game released, there are outdated items, sure, but what would you rather do? Remove some items completely? Even when Klei introduced the new farming system they didn't remove the old farms from servers that still had them. Not only you exaggerated and mentioned some items that are completely fine, you forget that there are other play styles and people who just want to have fun even if they're using a weak item.

I did not say I wanted to remove them wha??? I said I wanted them to be buffed to allow for a wider variety of playable content. I understand there are other play styles and niche uses, but if somethings just there to be a neat little thing and help a character one time, unless you want to actively waste your time - which is of the essence in DST - why should the average player go out of their way to make these items?

 

2 hours ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, it's unfair to cite items that are either niche or outdated to compare to people's suggestions for balancing the game.

How is it unfair to cite items that have little to no use? Is it bad to think the little guys should get some use? Is it bad to say that most of the forum posters are overreacting over the "over-tuning"?
 

2 hours ago, RussoDaFederal said:

 I disagree with a lot of suggestions, but dismissing them just because "the game isn't balanced from the start" is definitely not the way to go.

I meant that the game was never traditionally balanced from the start.
 

2 hours ago, RussoDaFederal said:

To this day I can't convince my wife not to use the cat cap, she thinks it's pretty, and she manages to survive using a weak item. So I can't really complain there.

I mean I like the cat cap too, I wish it was just at least on-par with winter hats, or maybe more expensive somehow but more powerful than winter hats? Also this is wholesome. :3

4 hours ago, Evelo said:

Hold up, I didn't even notice the Cookie Cutter Cap was in the pile of slander. That item is great. More HP than football helmet and available without spending resources on establishing a pig farm.

I will admit the cookie cutter cap doesn't deserve slander, I'd like it to be 80% protection though.

 

3 hours ago, Fufuji said:

My opinion: balance serves for making the game more fun (rather than challenge). Characters/items too powerful could ruin battles or survival gameplay experience, while characters/items too weak leads to less people willing to use them. Both situations have the same consequence that playable content for players are effectively reduced.

No matter buff or nerf, if the balance change enriches players' effective playable content, then it is a nice balance.

Cannot argue with that honestly. I do believe that people are overreacting about things being too powerful however.

[marely]

You're right, some items definitely need to be given unique uses instead of just being placed in the crafting tab like toys. Balance is not absolute, it's relative.

[NINA1917]

As a work, Don't Starve is a world for me to explore, and I can happily accept the existence of useless, transitional items. Not everything in the world has to be exploited.
To me, balance can be discussed as just two things.

1. Can we participate in the division of labor during group games and enjoy the fun of the game together? This is determined by the relative strengths and unique abilities of the characters.

2. Is survival interesting? It depends on the survival mechanic itself, as well as some additional mechanics, combat and nice character skins (Survival Challenge and Casual Build)

The first balance change since the advent of skill trees has occurred, but things are changing. The final impact of the skill tree on this balance cannot yet be determined.
The second balance, due to the appearance of the new boss, I think has not suffered huge damage so far.

[Yolo-Kouhai]

8 minutes ago, NINA1917 said:

As a work, Don't Starve is a world for me to explore, and I can happily accept the existence of useless, transitional items. Not everything in the world has to be exploited.

The issue is that they're not even transitional items.

Except for the fashion goggles and top hat. I also have no issue with items like the rabbit earmuffs which exist purely for when someone joins into the server mid-not-autumn.

[NINA1917]

 

11 minutes ago, Yolo-Kouhai said:

The issue is that they're not even transitional items.

This is a translation error, I was talking about two types of items.
1. Useless
2. Transitional
Of course, I'm not opposed to finding new uses for useless props, and I'd be happy if the creators did that.

[Yolo-Kouhai]

6 hours ago, Evelo said:

I also forgot to mention the homogenization of characters. It is a big deal and can quickly sour the experience of a game. If everyone can do everything, then does who you play actually matter?

No characters feel the same. For example: Wendy, Wormwood, and Willow are all good at killing large groups, they are highly different and have different goals. Wanda and Wolfgang are dedicated to doing large amounts of damage and even tanking, they do it in different ways and even have their own special abilities on top of that. I do not think the characters are being homogenized, far from it.

[Cheggf]

1 hour ago, Yolo-Kouhai said:

The issue is that they're not even transitional items.

Except for the fashion goggles and top hat. I also have no issue with items like the rabbit earmuffs which exist purely for when someone joins into the server mid-not-autumn.

For all of your talk about how multiplayer games don't need to be extremely well balanced with everything being perfectly equal in every way you sure do like to argue the exact opposite and say that because you personally don't find a use in the transitionary items because you personally are good enough at the game to just skip over them that means they're entirely worthless for everyone. You're right about one thing: coop games have more room for balance leeway, except not in any of the ways that you've argued for, and it's only in the ways that you've argued against. 

[Yolo-Kouhai]

18 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

For all of your talk about how multiplayer games don't need to be extremely well balanced with everything being perfectly equal in every way you sure do like to argue the exact opposite

So, multiplayer games don't need to be extremely well balanced, yes. Nothing is equal and I understand that. You're not breaking any new ground.
 

21 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

you sure do like to argue the exact opposite and say that because you personally don't find a use in the transitionary items because you personally are good enough at the game to just skip over them that means they're entirely worthless for everyone.

I'm simply asking that these wrongfully titled "transitionary items" are buffed to at least be viable past 1 to none situations. Let me paint you a picture.

 

They are objectively worthless besides giving a body slot to Pearl when it's snowing.

[RussoDaFederal]

2 hours ago, Yolo-Kouhai said:

Balancing games is not objective. Something that'd be completely absurd in a competitive game is fine in a multiplayer coop game.

I didn't say balancing games is 100% objective, but it is more objective than people realize. And DST is balanced in a way. Sure, every game is balanced differently, but saying "it isn't balanced/it doesn't need to be balanced" goes directly against what you said yourself:

2 hours ago, Yolo-Kouhai said:

The player may think something is unbalanced when it's completely balanced in the context of the game.

And I 100% agree with the statement above. People are overreacting, the game is balanced the way Klei believes is best. Of course there are some unbalanced things in the game but nothing too game breaking unless someone goes for a really tryhard strat. I'd say the game is balanced overall. But there's nothing super special about DST, as much as I like the game (and it is one of my favorite games of all time) I can't say it is so unique that its balancing is different from what's expected. It's not.

2 hours ago, Yolo-Kouhai said:

I mean I like the cat cap too, I wish it was just at least on-par with winter hats, or maybe more expensive somehow but more powerful than winter hats? Also this is wholesome. :3

Maybe I didn't understand what you meant at first then, because it felt like "those items are useless so they prove Klei doesn't care about balance". Sorry for the miscommunication then.

[Yolo-Kouhai]

2 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

I didn't say balancing games is 100% objective, but it is more objective than people realize. And DST is balanced in a way. Sure, every game is balanced differently, but saying "it isn't balanced/it doesn't need to be balanced" goes directly against what you said yourself:

I will admit my original post is a tad bit confusing, it's kinda a mashup of two ideas I had which was "Hey, this character isn't objectively busted now that they have a skill tree" and "Why are we complaining about over-tuning when there is so many under-tuned items" I just am tired of going on here to read what other people think only to see people **** on hard work and cool ideas due to their idea of balanced not lining up with Klei's. I'm not the smartest cookie, but I think the skill trees this update have been phenomenal, fun, and fresh. I also think that these items deserve a buff as they have so much potential to be an engaging and fun option while roaming the constant!

[Cheggf]

37 minutes ago, Yolo-Kouhai said:

So, multiplayer games don't need to be extremely well balanced, yes. Nothing is equal and I understand that. You're not breaking any new ground.
 

I'm simply asking that these wrongfully titled "transitionary items" are buffed to at least be viable past 1 to none situations. Let me paint you a picture.

 

They are objectively worthless besides giving a body slot to Pearl when it's snowing.

Beefalo are only really in one part of the map. If you haven't found those by winter you can't make the winter hat. Hounds & koalephants are global, and catcoons are in the place noobs like to congregate. The winter hat is literally the most "objectively worthless" item you've listed here. They all have trash insulation values, but at least the dapper vest & cat cap have rather large sanity regen. And also, if you found beefalo, why not make a beefalo hat? If you haven't found beefalo you can make the other 3 items, but if you have found beefalo you can make a beefalo hat. In what situation would you want to make a winter hat over a beefalo hat? 

[grm9]

2 hours ago, Cheggf said:

In what situation would you want to make a winter hat over a beefalo hat? 

not enough horns in multi player e.g. because of getting a world with only a few beefalos, poor horn RNG or both

[Yolo-Kouhai]

16 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Beefalo are only really in one part of the map. If you haven't found those by winter you can't make the winter hat. Hounds & koalephants are global, and catcoons are in the place noobs like to congregate. The winter hat is literally the most "objectively worthless" item you've listed here. They all have trash insulation values, but at least the dapper vest & cat cap have rather large sanity regen. And also, if you found beefalo, why not make a beefalo hat? If you haven't found beefalo you can make the other 3 items, but if you have found beefalo you can make a beefalo hat. In what situation would you want to make a winter hat over a beefalo hat? 

They're in two parts of the map, in a multiplayer setting (The game's called Don't Starve Together) it's very easy to find Beefalo. Speaking of multiplayer setting! Beefalo horns have RNG, you're not guaranteed to get one.