Out of curiosity, by what metric is Wendy judged as a "powerful" character, but not Wigfrid?

[Mysterious box]

10 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Its overheal iirc, which is temporary hp and so probably designed for extended fights. Could be for especially large hordes but that just seems overkill.

I do think however this was meant for stronger hordes that might need that bit of extra hp for abi to kill.

[WenericMember]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

I do think however this was meant for stronger hordes that might need that bit of extra hp for abi to kill.

Possibly, but even for that 100hp was still pretty low, considering Bernie got a 500hp/1000hp increase, unconditionally, for 1/2 insight, wheras this is a third tier skill.

[Mysterious box]

Just now, WenericMember said:

Possibly, but even for that 100hp was still pretty low, considering Bernie got a 500hp/1000hp increase, unconditionally, for 1/2 insight, wheras this is a third tier skill.

Bernie is a tank follower however while Abigail isn't if anything Bernie got a worse deal here as Willow has to give up her alignment spell to make use of his damage reflection skill which would be his Abigail equivalent so in exchange you could say Wendy's is too lax even.   

[WenericMember]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

Bernie is a tank follower however while Abigail isn't if anything Bernie got a worse deal here as Willow has to give up her alignment spell to make use of his damage reflection skill which would be his Abigail equivalent so in exchange you could say Wendy's is too lax even.   

Yeah, I don't think a 500 increase for Wendy was necessary or anything, but I think a commitment for 300 is a good compromise. 100 is just one-two extra hits from most mobs, which still isn't that helpful in a horde environment.

[Mysterious box]

6 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Yeah, I don't think a 500 increase for Wendy was necessary or anything, but I think a commitment for 300 is a good compromise. 100 is just one-two extra hits from most mobs, which still isn't that helpful in a horde environment.

That still seems too high considering she'll also have damage reduction on top of that.

[Dingle]

8 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

I would appreciate it if you stopped making assumptions about me based on nothing. It feels really demeaning.

She's not my main or anything, but I have maxxed her insight tree by playing normally. Personally, I think the costs for her new recipes are slightly too high, but like their effects. The shields cool and encourages a different kind of playstyle, and Defensive items in a hand slot is fun to use without having to specifically beat the twins of tewrror. I like the beefalo saddle just because Mobs take so much damage, and I'm happy with the base damage & speed of regular beefalo. The helmet has ok utility between self repair, kb and wetness resistance but is certainly the weakest of her skill tree.

Fair. I think you'll get something similar to how you see Wigfrid's stuff for Wendy. That is, if you're a long time dedicated Wendy player, you'll be happy with like two or three things.

[WenericMember]

2 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Fair. I think you'll get something similar to how you see Wigfrid's stuff for Wendy. That is, if you're a long time dedicated Wendy player, you'll be happy with like two or three things.

Fair enough. The reworked Flower Shroud, Added haunt, and improved alignment skils is enough for me for the most part, most changes from here on out are QOL or minor buffs.

4 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

That still seems too high considering she'll also have damage reduction on top of that.

Might be, once again it comes down to the flower Shroud. At the beta's initial release though it was way too low.

[Evelo]

Wigfrid's skillset is horrible. The fact that Wendy's is weaker compared to Wigfrid is great. Wigfrid did not need to become a goddess made manifest compared to before.

[DVGMedia]

1 hour ago, SSneaky said:

i mean you can recruit bunnymen with merm disguise but that does require a wurt to have existed. 

one man band does exist  and works for these characters

[Peasant]

Maybe they do think wigfrid IS a strong character, otherwise she wont have got a skilltree that provided little actual improvement.

5 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Are you going to argue that Wortox was strong before? Halved stats from food, can't recruit pigs and bunnymen. Other characters began getting teleports. Woven with spools.

He needed it even more than Walter, and Klei had to remove knabsack requirements in an update because it was infecting the rest of the naughty branch with inventory stuffing.

I think what he meant is that Wortox, as a rather weak character before become instantly much more stronger that pre-skilltree strong characters like wendy/wigfird cannot hope to match, while wendy/wigfrid have got a rather lame skilltree that did them little improvement due to they are already 'strong enough'

[Peasant]

5 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Are you going to argue that Wortox was strong before? Halved stats from food, can't recruit pigs and bunnymen. Other characters began getting teleports. Woven with spools.

He needed it even more than Walter, and Klei had to remove knabsack requirements in an update because it was infecting the rest of the naughty branch with inventory stuffing.

Did people immediately complain as much? A bunch of users joined the forums just to complain about Wendy.

The situation is kind awkward, you can realize that klei has been trying to balance the characters by giving the weak ones strong skilltree and giving the already strong ones weak skilltreess, but it seems klei had failed to handle this, causing weak characters become new strong ones after skilltree, for example willow or winona, and this improvement is too much that making them exceeds the already strong ones, which on the other hand didnt got much actual improvement, thus become new weak ones after skilltrees have been updated.

[Steorra]

6 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

He needed it even more than Walter,

Sorry? But Wortox is far better than Walter before the skill tree. 

For QoL, Wortox has only the disadvantage of hostility of pigman, but he have teleport ability which is similar like Wanda & Wilona. We all know how a convenience the teleport ability is.

The food effectiveness reduction could be ignore for those who already know how to survive a long period in DST.

[gaymime]

4 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Honestly the more I look at it Wendy's tree definitely feels pretty strong in terms of impact I'm still kind of having trouble understanding why people are calling it weak.

well, people seem to be ignoring wendy entirely when they look at her skill-tree and instead are looking at other characters' skilltrees and comparing those. they do not care that she is already a very well-made & strong character(she is literally the most-played character in the game by many thousands of players and in the four years i have been playing always either the most or second-most played at any given point) they only care that what she is being given is as good or, preferably, better than what anyone else gets to have. it does not matter that giving her wigfrid, winona or maxwell level buffs would skew her "value" so that she continues to be the most-played easiest-to-use popular character, the thing that matters is that she is gets the best skills because she is the fan-favourite character.

it is the same for all multi-character multi-player games. it sucks but that is just how it is. people don't look at it from the position of a game developer trying to keep their game from being lopsided/busted they look at it from the position of an auntie or an uncle fighting to get nice things for their favourite celebrity

[Soul7k]

i will never understand why they couldn't give the beefalo tree more useful stuff like tagging the planar damage they removed from it into one of the skills, making you able to sing songs while on it, or heal your beefalo with your passive to at least give something that sets you apart withe beefalo. I will never understand. if they wanted to give her emphasis on beefalo they should have given her emphasis for them. sure she can tame faster for herself and others. then what? you respec after because the skills become effectively useless.

[WenericMember]

6 minutes ago, gaymime said:

well, people seem to be ignoring wendy entirely when they look at her skill-tree and instead are looking at other characters' skilltrees and comparing those. they do not care that she is already a very well-made & strong character(she is literally the most-played character in the game by many thousands of players and in the four years i have been playing always either the most or second-most played at any given point) they only care that what she is being given is as good or, preferably, better than what anyone else gets to have. it does not matter that giving her wigfrid, winona or maxwell level buffs would skew her "value" so that she continues to be the most-played easiest-to-use popular character, the thing that matters is that she is gets the best skills because she is the fan-favourite character.

it is the same for all multi-character multi-player games. it sucks but that is just how it is. people don't look at it from the position of a game developer trying to keep their game from being lopsided/busted they look at it from the position of an auntie or an uncle fighting to get nice things for their favourite celebrity

Personally, I don't mind that her skills are generally less gameplay defining, I just find some of the skills not worth using at all. Thankfully that list has shrunk down after the dev post, but Dark Petals (admittedly bc of the incoming haunt effect), Strong Brew I and II, and Team Spirit I have little to no gameplay value at all.

It's def a spectrum, and while I don't want to make her broken in any sense, the skill tree still leans too far into being powerless than it should be.

[gaymime]

Just now, WenericMember said:

Personally, I don't mind that her skills are generally less gameplay defining, I just find some of the skills not worth using at all. Thankfully that list has shrunk down after the dev post, but Dark Petals (admittedly bc of the incoming haunt effect), Strong Brew I and II, and Team Spirit I have little to no gameplay value at all.

It's def a spectrum, and while I don't want to make her broken in any sense, the skill tree still leans too far into being powerless than it should be.

which is totally fair too, i don't play wendy so i cant say what is the -correct- level for her needs but i totally understand that not everyone is going to use all of any characters skills regardless of who the character is, wendy included for a myriad of reasons

[Kwaik]

Wigfrid wasn't powerful until after her skill tree (she was generally inferior to Wolfgang) 

 

And it was her lightning spear that almost entirely made the difference between how useful she is, and that's a fairly late game addition 

You take that spear out and she's pretty damn mediocre 

[Bumber64]

9 hours ago, WenericMember said:

Wigfrid's skill tree didn't go into beta in a state where half here skills were literal worse versions of things already widely available to Wendy.

Considering Wigfrid's update was shared with only one other character, and Walter's alignment perks are still unimplemented, I'm thinking they just ran out of pre-beta time. There's only a month left in the year.

5 hours ago, Steorra said:

Sorry? But Wortox is far better than Walter before the skill tree.

For QoL, Wortox has only the disadvantage of hostility of pigman, but he have teleport ability which is similar like Wanda & Wilona. We all know how a convenience the teleport ability is.

He just needs souls every time to do that, which only stacked to 20. Souls which are also his hunger/healing/sanity (when anyone else would just make food from the morsel). Having just a teleport didn't negate the downsides. You could just play the other two teleporting characters for high damage (plus Wanda free heals or Winona resource gathering) on top of it.

Meanwhile Walter gets a tent, campfire stories, free bonus Chester, early beefalo, slingshot for birds/etc., and potentially less sanity lost from some bosses. There's a thread where I argued he's worse than Webber (and questionably Wendy and Wormwood), but I don't think I could make a case for Wortox other than teleport being obviously better than rider Woby.

[WenericMember]

7 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Considering Wigfrid's update was shared with only one other character, and Walter's alignment perks are still unimplemented, I'm thinking they just ran out of pre-beta time.

On top of that, most other skill trees came with at least some global QOL, which this doesn't have.

I just hope they don't rush it to full release. Once the promised perks are added, they're still need to be properly evaluated to see if they do enough.

Edit: the hard deadline is probably the week before X-mas going by last year. so 4 weeks of Beta. I hope that's enough

[Soul7k]

3 hours ago, WenericMember said:

On top of that, most other skill trees came with at least some global QOL, which this doesn't have.

I just hope they don't rush it to full release. Once the promised perks are added, they're still need to be properly evaluated to see if they do enough.

Edit: the hard deadline is probably the week before X-mas going by last year. so 4 weeks of Beta. I hope that's enough

if it doesn't shake out by release there is always a chance things could be reworked at a later date. i.e. willow and wormwood got tweaks and reworks in later patches after their skill trees dropped

[AliceMagtron]

18 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Wigfrid got beefalo stuff shoved in her tree. The good stuff was the equipment, which is equivalent to shroud and gestalt form.

What's the difference in philosophy?

the different thing is the good stuff in wendys skill tree is damn similar to wigs beefalo line, unhelpful. u need 2 insight points to allow u make the dress, and for the materials, if u dont want to die then u need 3 more insight points to grow evil flowers. and after all these, u still need 100 sansity for it. and what it does? gives u a worse option than a tamed beefalo.

3 hours ago, Soul7k said:

if it doesn't shake out by release there is always a chance things could be reworked at a later date. i.e. willow and wormwood got tweaks and reworks in later patches after their skill trees dropped

then hows wilson? and since there is always chance then why dont u see now is the chance too?

18 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Did people immediately complain as much? A bunch of users joined the forums just to complain about Wendy.

since klei only recommand ppl to use forum instead of leave an E-mail address, here is the most possible place to let klei hear their voice, so this problem is on klei.

[HowlVoid]

I feel like people have been trying to gaslight me into thinking Wendy is weaker than Wes with some of the grand exaggerations I've seen here. Despite knowing for years this isn't the case. All wendy really needs is some qol to keep Abigail from dying and that's it. (And make the potions buff different probably to be something fun). 

Wendy has always been stronger than Wig but weaker than Wolfgang in terms of power level. If you take away beefalos, the gap between her and Wolfgang grows but she's still stronger than Wig imo. 

[Bumber64]

38 minutes ago, AliceMagtron said:

the different thing is the good stuff in wendys skill tree is damn similar to wigs beefalo line, unhelpful. u need 2 insight points to allow u make the dress, and for the materials, if u dont want to die then u need 3 more insight points to grow evil flowers. and after all these, u still need 100 sansity for it. and what it does? gives u a worse option than a tamed beefalo.

She's getting a haunt ability, so unless that skill will require those, you might not. 100 isn't enough to drive her insane, so you can just passively regen. Not buying the "worse than beefalo" thing.

Imagine playing as another survivor (e.g., Wilson) that has to give up an entire skill branch to get the others, and you still don't get any AoE.

[AliceMagtron]

5 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Imagine playing as another survivor (e.g., Wilson) that has to give up an entire skill branch to get the others, and you still don't get AoE damage

but for wilson its obviously only craft skills works well for now, give up whole torch or beard line si not a problem anyway, also, if u have any dissatisfied of wilsons skill tree, why not ask klei for some change instead of discuss wendy skill tree here? also since u mention to imagine other character, why not wolfgong, or even this time, wortox or walter. wortox can even kill boss can simply kill boss by invincible, and walter get huge and ranged dmg.

 

10 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Not buying the "worse than beefalo" thing.

               spd       atk                def                                                                               hp             regen

beefalo  +45%   x1.0               0~60%(depends on saddle)                                        1k              4 x food hp regen value

dress      -15%   x0.75             0~90%(depends on helmat)+occupy armor slot       900            food hp regen value

so tell me the reason u dont buy it.

 

[Bumber64]

56 minutes ago, AliceMagtron said:

but for wilson its obviously only craft skills works well for now, give up whole torch or beard line si not a problem anyway, also, if u have any dissatisfied of wilsons skill tree, why not ask klei for some change instead of discuss wendy skill tree here? also since u mention to imagine other character, why not wolfgong, or even this time, wortox or walter. wortox can even kill boss can simply kill boss by invincible, and walter get huge and ranged dmg.

 

               spd       atk                def                                                                               hp             regen

beefalo  +45%   x1.0               0~60%(depends on saddle)                                        1k              4 x food hp regen value

dress      -15%   x0.75             0~90%(depends on helmat)+occupy armor slot       900            food hp regen value

so tell me the reason u dont buy it.

And yet Wilson gives something up regardless. Yes, Wortox and Walter give things up, too. Wendy doesn't have enough skills to make a choice, yet you're opposed to adding more for some reason.

Can't read your chart very well (using my smartphone) but the x0.75 multiplier sticks out as being quite a bit dishonest. You know that Abi buffs Wendy's damage to x1.15 and also has her own attack, right? (Gestalt trades in Abi's AoE for x10 on herself. Also apparently dodges attacks better.)

Not to mention that a multiplier isn't a damage amount. Wendy can wield a hambat, void scythe, etc., when not on a beefalo.