A skilltree argument i've realised is silly

[marshyds]

Some (Me included) have sometimes said that some skilltree skills feel basekit (I.E wurt's temperature skill).

What this means is that it would be available without a skilltree. (saving a point for something else)

What i've come to realise is that if the point of the new character rework skilltrees is to offer a choice, then those skills being basekit would be awful for people who would like to play a pre-skilltree character.

[Evelo]

29 minutes ago, marshyds said:

new character rework skilltrees

But they aren't that. They should not be that. The Refreshes were done specifically to change the character. Some characters especially early on desperately needed a re-touch up. Locking some amazing baseline impactful things (Willow's Spell casting, Wigfrid's craftables, Winona's portable structures, Wurt merm structures (level 1 variants only), Wormwood Moonshroom harvesting) behind skill sets feels really bad, especially early on when you have yet to unlock them.

Other things REALLY promote character swapping especially for solo experiences, which I feel is detrimental to the health of the game. These certain categories, would be best relegated to a new crafting station entirely. Those being Wilson's Transmutations and Wormwood's Plant Crafts.

I feel skill trees (or skillsets as is called in game) are most enjoyable when they provide minor bonuses until reaching a capstone where you gain a major bonus. The affinities, reflect the major bonus with all characters and those are for the most part, fine (winona kind of excluded imo because it adds new crafts and I am against that personally for skillsets).

Willow for instance is the most egregious case of this "Skill tree is actually a rework" situation. (I won't get into the argument of her becoming a literal fire wizard because that is a different subject tangential to this) Imagine if you will her spells were a base part of her kit. They were pretty under developed skills in general with her Fire Ball lasting 1 minute, Spontaneous Combustion can only hit 3 enemies per cast, and Burning Frenzy lasts for 30 seconds or gives 10% bonus, as well as her expensive spell being a much different ability. Maybe just a direct damage fire strike? Then through her skills you would choose what to buff and by how much with the cap stone of your decisions being a transformation of the expensive spell being the lunar fire or shadow fire.     Bernie's skills are mostly good, I think Burning Bernie could be baseline with the ability to further improve it via talent choices. with his capstone being Lunar or Shadow Bernie.

Other characters like Wigfrid have very very weird skill sets. Why is the Battle Call Canister restricted to a talent? It is incredibly useful and isn't even a choice for Wigfrid. You will pick that once unlocked.

Skill trees are suppose to offer a choice. The way most of them are set up, there is not really a choice. I think Wurt's (functionally not practically) is the best because you can actually choose to go full into Self Buffing or Hard into Merm Buffing. Winona's is also pretty decent despite a few issues I have with it. Theirs are great as far as player choice is concerned. Wolfgangs is my favorite given how not impactful it is to change his over all gameplay. Skilltrees historically are to add a little oomph to something of your choosing with a big trophy at the end of the line for your commitment to that line.

Over all I was really hoping that Wilson's Skillset would be it for this given the introduction of skills was Wilson's Refresh which turns out is actually nothing because Everyone is getting skills. So in essence, Wilson never got a Refresh.

Naturally, everything is different and times change. These are just MY biggest issues with the introduction and execution so far of Character skillsets/trees. While I (among many others) fought to change Wormwood's skillset for the better, there are still things with it I dislike, as far as layout and flow are concerned, I think it is awesome. As far as the talents themselves, those could easily use some changes imo.

TLDR: I think craftables and certain major gameplay changing effects need to be made baseline for the character while the skills focus on minor bonuses to enhance existing perks of each character.

[marshyds]

23 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Skill trees are suppose to offer a choice. The way most of them are set up, there is not really a choice. I think Wurt's (functionally not practically) is the best because you can actually choose to go full into Self Buffing or Hard into Merm Buffing. Winona's is also pretty decent despite a few issues I have with it. Theirs are great as far as player choice is concerned. Wolfgangs is my favorite given how not impactful it is to change his over all gameplay. Skilltrees historically are to add a little oomph to something of your choosing with a big trophy at the end of the line for your commitment to that line.

I feel like this isint really related to the nature of skilltrees themselves, rather how klei handled them.

I agree that skills like winona's 3 generator skills and 6 catapult skills feel a bit of a waste (atleast the speed one, the radius one absoloutely deserves the tiers.), while the affinities are the skills you'll invest a lot in. But this is just how klei designed the tree.

Personally i absoloutely despised Wolfgang's gameplay pre and post skilltree, as its just always been "make hit damage number bigger", atleast Willow gets a cool lunar flamethrower.

23 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Other things REALLY promote character swapping especially for solo experiences, which I feel is detrimental to the health of the game. These certain categories, would be best relegated to a new crafting station entirely. Those being Wilson's Transmutations and Wormwood's Plant Crafts.

I agree that skills that add a new craft arent very good for swapping, but i dont know if making having the skill required to interact with the structure would go well.

In general i believe that the skilltrees are best when they expand on a character by adding something new.

I didin't really like Wurt's skilltree because merms just turned into tanks that can defeat the celestial champion in hordes of 20. The tilling is nice though im not at all into farming anymore, plus the axe/shovel feels like a waste of resources.

Winona's skilltree REALLY added new abilities, like the vine bridge or telepad or wormhole teleportation or the remote control or the planar strikes or winbots.

[Evelo]

41 minutes ago, marshyds said:

In general i believe that the skilltrees are best when they expand on a character by adding something new.

Just a difference in perspective then. No biggie. Is what it is and the like.

[Radicaljoe]

I do feel that there are a couple skills that should be basekit and replaced with a new skill. 
Winona's portable structures and Wigfrid Cannister are the main ones that come to mind right now. The portability of the catapults is honestly probably the main thing that made Winona more fun to play imo. You went from having to make a new catapult zone for every point of interest, to being able to set up shop anywhere. Winona's rock debt dropped 10 fold by allowing her to carry the same 6-8 catapults everywhere. And canister is just kinda annoying, like, you take the skill, craft it, and respec the skills using a moon idol. In that case I'd like to cut out the middle man and just give a new skill completely. You could say the same for Wurt's sheds, but they're interesting enough I say that they're okay to be tree related. 

[Gashzer]

3 hours ago, Evelo said:

But they aren't that. They should not be that. The Refreshes were done specifically to change the character. Some characters especially early on desperately needed a re-touch up. Locking some amazing baseline impactful things (Willow's Spell casting, Wigfrid's craftables, Winona's portable structures, Wurt merm structures (level 1 variants only), Wormwood Moonshroom harvesting) behind skill sets feels really bad, especially early on when you have yet to unlock them.

Other things REALLY promote character swapping especially for solo experiences, which I feel is detrimental to the health of the game. These certain categories, would be best relegated to a new crafting station entirely. Those being Wilson's Transmutations and Wormwood's Plant Crafts.

I feel skill trees (or skillsets as is called in game) are most enjoyable when they provide minor bonuses until reaching a capstone where you gain a major bonus. The affinities, reflect the major bonus with all characters and those are for the most part, fine (winona kind of excluded imo because it adds new crafts and I am against that personally for skillsets).

Willow for instance is the most egregious case of this "Skill tree is actually a rework" situation. (I won't get into the argument of her becoming a literal fire wizard because that is a different subject tangential to this) Imagine if you will her spells were a base part of her kit. They were pretty under developed skills in general with her Fire Ball lasting 1 minute, Spontaneous Combustion can only hit 3 enemies per cast, and Burning Frenzy lasts for 30 seconds or gives 10% bonus, as well as her expensive spell being a much different ability. Maybe just a direct damage fire strike? Then through her skills you would choose what to buff and by how much with the cap stone of your decisions being a transformation of the expensive spell being the lunar fire or shadow fire.     Bernie's skills are mostly good, I think Burning Bernie could be baseline with the ability to further improve it via talent choices. with his capstone being Lunar or Shadow Bernie.

Other characters like Wigfrid have very very weird skill sets. Why is the Battle Call Canister restricted to a talent? It is incredibly useful and isn't even a choice for Wigfrid. You will pick that once unlocked.

Skill trees are suppose to offer a choice. The way most of them are set up, there is not really a choice. I think Wurt's (functionally not practically) is the best because you can actually choose to go full into Self Buffing or Hard into Merm Buffing. Winona's is also pretty decent despite a few issues I have with it. Theirs are great as far as player choice is concerned. Wolfgangs is my favorite given how not impactful it is to change his over all gameplay. Skilltrees historically are to add a little oomph to something of your choosing with a big trophy at the end of the line for your commitment to that line.

Over all I was really hoping that Wilson's Skillset would be it for this given the introduction of skills was Wilson's Refresh which turns out is actually nothing because Everyone is getting skills. So in essence, Wilson never got a Refresh.

Naturally, everything is different and times change. These are just MY biggest issues with the introduction and execution so far of Character skillsets/trees. While I (among many others) fought to change Wormwood's skillset for the better, there are still things with it I dislike, as far as layout and flow are concerned, I think it is awesome. As far as the talents themselves, those could easily use some changes imo.

TLDR: I think craftables and certain major gameplay changing effects need to be made baseline for the character while the skills focus on minor bonuses to enhance existing perks of each character.

I only use wormwood to spam out bramble husks, Walter can rush celestial portal very fast and benefits alot of using bramble husks as his general day to day armour. His cheap camper tent makes it very easy to grind out living logs.

Bramble husk AOE is wormwoods most useful ability in my eyes. And you may say how can that be wormwood has lots of useful perks. Nope. Wormwood is competing against the likes of a solo Wolfgang, no other perks/skills of wormwood can measure up to wolfgangs apart from bramble husk's AOE that wolfgang also benefits from.

That's right Evelo, your main is just a filthy swap character to me, let that sink in.

[loopuleasa]

I have been playing Hamlet together and the gigachads over there DISABLED ALL SKILL trees (and also advanced farms)

Imagine the horror of the woodie that joined that randomly turns into goose on full moon or when eating gummy slugs

[Mysterious box]

5 hours ago, marshyds said:

Some (Me included) have sometimes said that some skilltree skills feel basekit (I.E wurt's temperature skill).

What this means is that it would be available without a skilltree. (saving a point for something else)

What i've come to realise is that if the point of the new character rework skilltrees is to offer a choice, then those skills being basekit would be awful for people who would like to play a pre-skilltree character.

My issue is that some skill trees namely ones for characters like Woodie and Willow feel like they're giving you the illusion of choice with some of their skills.

For example Willow has to get controlled burning, ember tender, and hungry lighter she just won't function in her new skill set without them and that's already 3 skill points deep for just the baseline of her new toolset. Then after that she has to use a very specific skill distribution to unlock her major alignment perks further boxing in your experience meaning it doesn't feel like you can personalize your experience it feels like your boxed in to a optimal build.

Then there's Woodie he's a bit more free in his distribution but his skill tree's were side plays as a band-aid for his existing problems so it doesn't feel like you're gaining new abilities but deciding which wereforms to patch which comes off as a strange choice when the were forms are a major draw to his character that being said the bigger issue in my opinion is the were mastery locks because not only are they not built equally but I don't feel like each were form is flushed out well enough to make a full commitment to just 1 mastery skill. On the topic of not being built equally the were moose mastery skill is the primary ability you'll find yourself using since the moose just won't last very long term as a combat option without it as the game goes on which leaves the were beaver skill and the goose skill as something you abuse the celestial portal for if at all.

[Gashzer]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

My issue is that some skill trees namely ones for characters like Woodie and Willow feel like they're giving you the illusion of choice with some of their skills.

For example Willow has to get controlled burning, ember tender, and hungry lighter she just won't function in her new skill set without them and that's already 3 skill points deep for just the baseline of her new toolset. Then after that she has to use a very specific skill distribution to unlock her major alignment perks further boxing in your experience meaning it doesn't feel like you can personalize your experience it feels like your boxed in to a optimal build.

Then there's Woodie he's a bit more free in his distribution but his skill tree's were side plays as a band-aid for his existing problems so it doesn't feel like you're gaining new abilities but deciding which wereforms to patch which comes off as a strange choice when the were forms are a major draw to his character that being said the bigger issue in my opinion is the were mastery locks because not only are they not built equally but I don't feel like each were form is flushed out well enough to make a full commitment to just 1 mastery skill. On the topic of not being built equally the were moose mastery skill is the primary ability you'll find yourself using since the moose just won't last very long term as a combat option without it as the game goes on which leaves the were beaver skill and the goose skill as something you abuse the celestial portal for if at all.

My only problem with woodies skill tree is that weregoose skills 2 and 3 (dodge one attack and 100% wetness resistance) are terrible.

Weremoose is good enough as it's own, which means you really don't need its mastery unless you plan to use it for post-rift content which is pretty late game, all the weremoose skills and the form itself are powerful enough to warrant not needing the dps boost from the mastery for boss fights. It's more like weremoose mastery is the one you abuse celestial portal for to use for a select few boss fights.

Werebeaver mastery is generally the best considering early and late game use for resource farming.

Weregoose mastery is a fun one which is most helpful early game to help locate monkey island/lunar island or ruins in caves. Only problem is you need to waste 2 skill points on 2 bad skills to reach this mastery.

 

[arubaro]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

My issue is that some skill trees namely ones for characters like Woodie and Willow feel like they're giving you the illusion of choice with some of their skills.

Finally someone points it out

Is sad that the best looking skill trees arent much better than the worst ones when paying attention to what they offfer.

Wigfrids is even worst. You have an entire branch for a mechanic you may not want to use, how it adds unnecessary planar armor (seems like she doesnt have enough resistance) that only works to confuse new players (same like Wolfgang’s planar damage perks), a skill point which only works once you craft the item associated or how bland and useless are her affinity perks (which on top of that are c&p...)

Ironically, the best skill tree is Wilson's. It may not add powerful unnecessary perks but atleast is designed like a proper skill tree even if is filled with uninteresting perks

Idk why they started this if they didnt have a clear vision of what to do

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

My only problem with woodies skill tree is that weregoose skills 2 and 3 (dodge one attack and 100% wetness resistance) are terrible.

Weremoose is good enough as it's own, which means you really don't need its mastery unless you plan to use it for post-rift content which is pretty late game, all the weremoose skills and the form itself are powerful enough to warrant not needing the dps boost from the mastery for boss fights. It's more like weremoose mastery is the one you abuse celestial portal for to use for a select few boss fights.

Werebeaver mastery is generally the best considering early and late game use for resource farming.

Weregoose mastery is a fun one which is most helpful early game to help locate monkey island/lunar island or ruins in caves. Only problem is you need to waste 2 skill points on 2 bad skills to reach this mastery.

 

I find it hard to agree Were moose's dps boost speeds up combat quite a bit both in and outside of boss fights as well as making some situations safer with it's super armor.

The were beaver while not a terrible option just isn't useful enough without a controlled log farm and even then since you lose a chunk of wereness per tail slam there's not a big enough benefit to it in other areas of the game from especially compared to the were moose who is usable everywhere you go. 

I'll be honest I can't for the life of me figure out why you'd get the goose mastery at any level of the game I mean the goose already runs on Water even if you don't find the islands immediately you're still mapping out the sea which is very useful in the long run and in the case of the ruins there's not many options for where it could be if your experienced with cave generation so I just don't get it. 

[Gashzer]

8 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I find it hard to agree Were moose's dps boost speeds up combat quite a bit both in and outside of boss fights as well as making some situations safer with it's super armor.

The were beaver while not a terrible option just isn't useful enough without a controlled log farm and even then since you lose a chunk of wereness per tail slam there's not a big enough benefit to it in other areas of the game from especially compared to the were moose who is usable everywhere you go. 

I'll be honest I can't for the life of me figure out why you'd get the goose mastery at any level of the game I mean the goose already runs on Water even if you don't find the islands immediately you're still mapping out the sea which is very useful in the long run and in the case of the ruins there's not many options for where it could be if your experienced with cave generation so I just don't get it. 

Weremoose mastery only speeds up boss fights by abit. Weremoose charge control skill with his charge is by far the faster and safer option to doing AOE damage to hordes of mobs. Is making a boss fight shorter by about 33% really worth using up woodies mastery? Werebeaver mastery can save much more time for resource collection for base building. 

Weregoose can be spammed a couple of times to get you near where u need to go then you can use the remaining goose form to get there. Most people don't run the goose form out completely anyway so using it when returning from atrium or from the ruins or from lunar or any of the islands will always be faster and its not like you are wasting the duration... its so long now!

[Mysterious box]

20 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Weregoose can be spammed a couple of times to get you near where u need to go then you can use the remaining goose form to get there. Most people don't run the goose form out completely anyway so using it when returning from atrium or from the ruins or from lunar or any of the islands will always be faster and its not like you are wasting the duration... its so long now!

This still seems pointless like even in the best case scenario it's a skill you need to use at most thrice per server.

23 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Is making a boss fight shorter by about 33% really worth using up woodies mastery?

hmm well considering bosses have upwards of 25k+ hp yea I'd say that's a dang good boost but hey that's just me.

24 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Weremoose mastery only speeds up boss fights by abit. Weremoose charge control skill with his charge is by far the faster and safer option to doing AOE damage to hordes of mobs. Is making a boss fight shorter by about 33% really worth using up woodies mastery? Werebeaver mastery can save much more time for resource collection for base building. 

That being said the mastery also greatly speeds up normal combat against stronger than average mobs as well the impact of the moose's mastery is definitely not to be understated and while the charge is definitely nice sometimes you want something faster to break up smaller hordes. As for the were beaver most of the speed in resource collection mainly comes from his earlier skills while the tail slam is nice due to it's design it's only really usable in a controlled farming environment so you won't really have many opportunities to use it in your day to day unless klei goes back and tweaks it.  

[Gashzer]

31 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

hmm well considering bosses have upwards of 25k+ hp yea I'd say that's a dang good boost but hey that's just me.

With weremoose forms tankiness and hp regen. You dont need to speed a fight up, you are going to win anyway. His form is so strong that the mastery is overkill. Nearly all of the weremooses strength doesn't come from dps it comes from his tankiness and AOE damage which is improved with his non-mastery moose skills. Weremoose mastery is massively overrated.

Atleast weregoose mastery gives him a utility he doesn't already have which is a form of teleportation. 

[arubaro]

6 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

With weremoose forms tankiness and hp regen. You dont need to speed a fight up, you are going to win anyway. His form is so strong that the mastery is overkill. Nearly all of the weremooses strength doesn't come from dps it comes from his tankiness and AOE damage which is improved with his non-mastery moose skills. Weremoose mastery is massively overrated.

Atleast weregoose mastery gives him a utility he doesn't already have which is a form of teleportation. 

Without it, moose is barely worth since he has less dps than a hambat...

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

With weremoose forms tankiness and hp regen. You dont need to speed a fight up, you are going to win anyway. His form is so strong that the mastery is overkill. Nearly all of the weremooses strength doesn't come from dps it comes from his tankiness and AOE damage which is improved with his non-mastery moose skills. Weremoose mastery is massively overrated.

Atleast weregoose mastery gives him a utility he doesn't already have which is a form of teleportation. 

You want to save time in fights because because time is always moving forward time spent in a fight could be better used elsewhere/ His mastery is overkill for a lot of situations i agree but there are still many others where it come in handy to massively speed up processes. The thing is his mastery gives additional tankiness in the form of super armor and a aoe slam both of which do wonders for combat even in the early game for example smaller hordes of higher hp mobs like warriors or even just to make quick work of higher hp early game mobs like tree guards and tentacles on top of being basically required for end game mobs.

Teleportation is useful random teleportation is not.

[Gashzer]

Just now, arubaro said:

Without it, moose is barely worth since he has less dps than a hambat...

Unbreakable 90% armour with 1.5hp every 3 secs and immunity to shadow creatures and moggle vision and a AOE dash.

Lad I would be happy with the damage of a regular spear. I really think you are underselling the most powerful aspects of the weremoose, his invincibility and utility.  

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

You want to save time in fights because because time is always moving forward time spent in a fight could be better used elsewhere/ His mastery is overkill for a lot of situations i agree but there are still many others where it come in handy to massively speed up processes. The thing is his mastery gives additional tankiness in the form of super armor and a aoe slam both of which do wonders for combat even in the early game for example smaller hordes of higher hp mobs like warriors or even just to make quick work of higher hp early game mobs like tree guards and tentacles on top of being basically required for end game mobs.

Teleportation is useful random teleportation is not.

What end game mobs need hyper armour? I literally just dash the shadow rift trio to death without the mastery easy peasy. And tbh if you have brightshade staff/other rift gear they are alot better to be using at the end game than weremoose.

AOE charge is still better to be using... or it doesn't even need to be better, it's still a AOE attack, why do I need to invest in another AOE attack thats not even faster for killing hordes?

Random teleportation is useful as it doesn't need to be 100% accurate to be faster. You get 4 teleports with a decent amount of running about time left to get to where u want to go. 

[Mysterious box]

9 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

What end game mobs need hyper armour? I literally just dash the shadow rift trio to death without the mastery easy peasy. And tbh if you have brightshade staff/other rift gear they are alot better to be using at the end game than weremoose.

Fighting planar enemies without planar damage drags out the fight which is dangerous since your on a timer same with the added planar defense the buffs allow yoyu to make quick work of planar enemies.

11 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

AOE charge is still better to be using... or it doesn't even need to be better, it's still a AOE attack, why do I need to invest in another AOE attack thats not even faster for killing hordes?

do a test for me face 4-5 spider warriors first try 1 fight with the charge then try the other with the aoe slam see which one is faster. Then think about all the situations where that might come up and even then why is having more good options a bad thing?

 

13 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Random teleportation is useful as it doesn't need to be 100% accurate to be faster. You get 4 teleports with a decent amount of running about time left to get to where u want to go. 

A chance at going where I need to instead of just using my increased speed that ignores obstacles to get where I need to in exchange for losing a actually useful mastery? Sounds like a awful trade to me. 

[Gashzer]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Fighting planar enemies without planar damage drags out the fight which is dangerous since your on a timer same with the added planar defense the buffs allow yoyu to make quick work of planar enemies.

Yeah i get it if you want to make weremoose work lategame and still play as braindead as you would for non-planar mobs then weremoose mastery is good post rift.

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

do a test for me face 4-5 spider warriors first try 1 fight with the charge then try the other with the aoe slam see which one is faster. Then think about all the situations where that might come up and even then why is having more good options a bad thing?

With my 90% unbreakable armour and 1.5hp healing every 3secs, preventing a few extra knocks is not worth the extra skill point let alone using up woodies mastery point.

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

A chance at going where I need to instead of just using my increased speed that ignores obstacles to get where I need to in exchange for losing a actually useful mastery? Sounds like a awful trade to me. 

For losing a mastery that is only useful during boss fights and even then isn't perfect for all bosses as you lose out in using things like using panflute or ice staff. Sounds like you have been awful to yourself for choosing the mastery that requires zero brainpower to use... ill give u that as an advantage to weremoose mastery, it's a braindead skill.

[Theukon-dos]

Most skills that people say "should be part of the base kit" are extremely small QoL changes. They're not impactful enough to be a meaningful choice, but they're also annoying if you go without them so you never have a reason to not pick them unless you're min/maxing your skills. Winona's skill tree is a good example here. Three of the bottom-shelf skills are basic QoL changes; portable machines, quick charge, and energy saver. None of them are impactful enough to enable a specific playstyle, none of them let Winona do anything "new", just save some resources on a character that needs a lot of them, and none of them are particularly unique in concept or execution. Meaning that in the end, all these three exist to do is fill the skill tree out and would have a noticable, but nominal impact if they where just part of her kit.

[Mysterious box]

32 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

For losing a mastery that is only useful during boss fights and even then isn't perfect for all bosses as you lose out in using things like using panflute or ice staff. Sounds like you have been awful to yourself for choosing the mastery that requires zero brainpower to use... ill give u that as an advantage to weremoose mastery, it's a braindead skill.

You know what this makes me feel like your not even trying to discuss this in good faith so I think I'll just end this here

[arubaro]

4 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Unbreakable 90% armour with 1.5hp every 3 secs and immunity to shadow creatures and moggle vision and a AOE dash.

Lad I would be happy with the damage of a regular spear. I really think you are underselling the most powerful aspects of the weremoose, his invincibility and utility.  

And you are over selling unnecessary perks in exchange of having low dps with a form that limits your actions

I live playing as woodie because using his perks is a fresh experience but you can do better with easy to acess items like moggles, log suit and hambat 

[Evelo]

1 hour ago, arubaro said:

you can do better with easy to acess items like moggles, log suit and hambat

Me when I play Woodie fights in human form cause I hated his Refresh.

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Evelo said:

Me when I play Woodie fights in human form cause I hated his Refresh.

Yeah while I don't hate the current Woodie I do dislike that the refresh didn't flesh out his were forms more and instead went in a weird direction of making you focus on one specifically then giving him a bunch of other Woodie adjacent perks.