Oasisse - stacked heat debuff

[imazined]

As I feared on Oasisse the heat debuffs stack without any meaningful mitigation. The water cooler has the huge draw back of all the dupes run there in their downtime regardless of their body temperature which is a big difference to the heating stations.



There is no equivalent to the warm coat in the game and if there were it would need resources in or nearby the starting biome. Aluminum jackets maybe?

But in this current state the deal with Oassise - the player needs to scald their dupes to get to suits - just doubled in danger as an overheated dupe also needs time to leave the scalding hot area before their hp drop too much.

With this current state of the beta I would ask to disable the athletics debuff from toasty surroundings until there are means for mitigation in the game.

My understanding is the new temperature mechanics for dupes and critters will also come to the base game and SO.

It would be a shame if the release of a minor DLC would break beloved starts just because the new mechanics a tailored to Ceres.

I'll continue to test the implication on the early game and if I find time and the tepidizer is fixed soon enough also on Rime and Frozen Forest

The pips seems to agree

[asurendra]

You can use new Ice-maker and cool all desert safely. After todays changes it is actually possible 

[imazined]

There is not enough water in the starting biome ... Good idea in theory but still not enough to make the mitigation for heat comparable to cold.

I just don't want Klei to forget that they had this debuff also at the other end of the temperature range.

Plus power in the early game is a little bit of excess hydrogen and dupes on wheels.

[asurendra]

I decided to try it myself if it was possible. The result, to be honest, surprised me...

So, Oasis. The most ordinary, without dlc, without mods, without a sandbox. I choosed one lake and start digging down. I planned to build Ice-maker when its necessary, but after 10 cycles I successfully penetrated desert. . At the end Water was quite warm, but its acceptable. Not a single dupe was scolded. No cooling was used... Screenshots for process and proofs:

[imazined]

Great way to dig down (and have the water in a very inconvenient place).

Nails here nearly suffocated because of scalding wounds and toasty surroundings over a really short distance.

I'm not saying Oasisse becomes impossible. I'm saying this new mechanics make this start and probably Rime/Frozen Forest a lot harder because there is not enough balancing for other asteroids than Ceres.

[NNOUS]

honestly, playing on those are asked as a challenge. and here you have it XD

[blakemw]

I've tackled scenarios like this before. A cooling pipe works really well. Granite is usually enough, but if extra spot cooling is needed just use a radiant pipe until the insulation is in.

The water can be cooled by passively exchanging heat with a pool of water, or by using an Aquatuner which is dumping heat into already hot terrain behind insulated tiles (like an aquatuner can heat up 60 C sand, to 100 C before the water starts boiling, then potentially even higher up to about 120 C before it starts overheating).

[imazined]

That's not the point. My point is to compare this how the temperature mechanics affect the Ceres gameplay where they integrated and how they affect the gameplay on other asteroid. And in comparison they make the early game less fun. Especially for new players who are usually afraid to leave the starting biome already.

[Gurgel]

7 hours ago, NNOUS said:

honestly, playing on those are asked as a challenge. and here you have it XD

Yes, it is. I do not get the constant complaining by some people. This is an _improvement_ and it is a new challenge. One that is entirely doable for advanced players. My guess is somebody here thinks they are an advanced player, but they are really not. 

3 hours ago, blakemw said:

I've tackled scenarios like this before. A cooling pipe works really well. Granite is usually enough, but if extra spot cooling is needed just use a radiant pipe until the insulation is in.

I have done the same thing. Works well.

2 hours ago, imazined said:

 Especially for new players who are usually afraid to leave the starting biome already.

Have you somehow missed that this is about Oasisse? New players have no business expecting to succeed there. 

[blakemw]

5 hours ago, Gurgel said:

Yes, it is. I do not get the constant complaining by some people. This is an _improvement_ and it is a new challenge. One that is entirely doable for advanced players. My guess is somebody here thinks they are an advanced player, but they are really not. 

Exactly. I always long for new challenges.

My most fun games are the glitched ones, like when Flipped (no teleporters) fails to properly connect the "dry tube" through the magma sea, requiring breaching the magma sea to reach freedom.
Or Volcanea when the abyssalite barriers are breached, allowing magma heat to leak into the starting area. In the best seed I played, there were 3 different breaches, two of immediate concern and a third I discovered later.

I'd really like harder maps that pretty much have a difficulty rating "snowflake's chance in hell".
And this change to make temperature extremes more punishing I find extremely welcome since it mattered not nearly enough, and very rarely gave reason to make like a cooling system for a worksite. Like in real world mines it is often necessary to run "climate control" style equipment so the workers don't die. It's great that ONI lets us set up all that sort of stuff, but it sucks there's very rarely a reason to do so since suits are usually such an easy solution.

[imazined]

7 hours ago, Gurgel said:

Yes, it is. I do not get the constant complaining by some people.

This complaining is called testing. The base line I test again is as I wrote before how this mechanics affect the game play on Ceres and compare it to other asteroids.

On Ceres you get one piece of protective clothing, the research for the buildings and material for additional protective clothing in a nearby biome. And compared to this most other asteroids are more affected than the new asteroid which is designed for this mechanic. Not to speak of clown shows like this:

7 hours ago, Gurgel said:

This is an _improvement_ and it is a new challenge. One that is entirely doable for advanced players My guess is somebody here thinks they are an advanced player, but they are really not. 

On paper the mechanics are an improvement I agree. But since there is no integration in previous maps yet they don't work so well and the instant application of toasy/chilly surroundings makes the existing debuffs more impactful. Again this is about consistency.

And you don't me so let's not speculate about others skill levels because this is not about me.

I don't get yearning to make the game harder by stacking debuffs. The hardest map I had just a few days ago and I lost my first colony in thousand of hours. Somehow metallic swampy had it's whole central biome spawned with only a granite border to the magma. That was legitimate challenge. Basically a slowly exploding bomb and I chose the wrong strategy. But this is something I wouldn't like for players to experience involuntarily and handling with this wouldn't get more fun if the dupes get -5 athletics every time they even touch water.

7 hours ago, Gurgel said:

 

7 hours ago, Gurgel said:

Have you somehow missed that this is about Oasisse? New players have no business expecting to succeed there. 

Oasisse was my first test case but since @sirnumbskull showed this affects also Terra which is basically where everyone starts to learn I think this point is moot.

Again I'm not against the mechanics, I'm testing how they affect other asteroids compared to Ceres before the DLC releases. These changes aren't DLC only and at the moment there is no way to opt out of them. I think they need a rebalance in regards of timing and of impact. Also there needs to parity in the early game to Ceres.

And I also want some new challenges especially in the end game. I would like to see some kind of external threads and we need to build traps out of the mechanics. Something like this but -5 athletics instantly for standing 32C water isn't that.

[blakemw]

8 hours ago, imazined said:

I don't get yearning to make the game harder by stacking debuffs.

The challenge is avoiding the debuffs.

In fact, many new players, automatically assume things are quite dangerous, like polluted oxygen, chlorine, magma... they might think if a dupe falls in magma it will burn their skin off and melt their fat (anyone get the reference?). They might be quite surprised when they end up learning that magma is literally no worse than 73 C water, like it's not great, but it's not "burst into flames" bad.

Anyway, what I'm saying, its that new players will automatically go to lengths to avoid these dangerous situations, and with experience we learn that they don't matter and the debuffs, if any, can be ignored very easily.

But it's not right that there are so few consequences to these things that we as earth humans think should be dangerous!

[imazined]

3 minutes ago, blakemw said:

The challenge is avoiding the debuffs.

In fact, many new players, automatically assume things are quite dangerous, like polluted oxygen, chlorine, magma... they might think if a dupe falls in magma it will burn their skin off and melt their fat (anyone get the reference?). They might be quite surprised when they end up learning that magma is literally no worse than 73 C water, like it's not great, but it's not "burst into flames" bad.

Anyway, what I'm saying, its that new players will automatically go to lengths to avoid these dangerous situations, and with experience we learn that they don't matter and the debuffs, if any, can be ignored very easily.

 

Good idea. Let's make it even harder for newbies to get into the game by not balancing the new changes out.

The longer non sarcastic argument you can find here.
 

3 minutes ago, blakemw said:

But it's not right that there are so few consequences to these things that we as earth humans think should be dangerous!

Also interesting language. This is not about morale. This is about pacing in a video game.