Masked Koopa Posted June 30, 2024 Share Posted June 30, 2024 Ok so first up I wanna make it clear that by allignment I specifically mean the "pick your side" aspect of skill trees. Just so we're clear. The skeptics were right - tree creep has happened To show what I mean, let me run through the skill trees as they released. Wilson: Has two allignment skills - both of them are crafts, both of them are somewhat meh. Wolfgang Has six allignment skills - they are purely tiered and seem to be mostly filler with an intent to make him focus "harder" on allignment. Woodie Has two allignment skills - they are both small bonuses that reduce annoyances associated with his Wereforms. Wormwood Has six allignment skills. He ONLY has lunar as an option. We think of it as a fun exception as he is made of Alter. The skills are a little more flashy than the other characters, but most consist of repurposed existing content like lunar plant creatures. He DOES get new vine based bonuses with brightshade, but hey Wormwood is a special boi. Some of us worry that Wormwood will miss out on exciting shadow allignment content. Wigfrid Has two allignment skills - they are new items, which is a first. That having been said they are so weak they may as well be filler. So far, allignment seems mostly to be more about choosing your side than about the perks you actually get, with the only real exception being WW. Except... Willow Has four allignment skills - two that transform bernie's visual look completely, and two that add a brand new spell to your options. These are pretty extreme, but most of us are just happy Willow is getting actual stuff to work with. The allignment here produces a clearly defined choice between two sets of perks. You're picking your perk here, not your allignment. Wormwood Mk3 Now has a brand new upgraded bramble husk to use post-rifts. Now it seems like allignment is also being used as a way to keep Wormwood's husk relevant with planar damage exisiting. Wurt Has four skills - they are very extreme, adding new Lunar/Shadow forms to merms, and then adding a special wand that can create enlightenment areas/shadow tentacle spawns. These are really extreme with a lot of variance between the mechanics of the two types of merms, and the mechanics of the wands. There's no question about it - this is a choice between perks. Winona Has no allignment skills at all - you straight-up cannot choose a side She DOES however have perks that give her catapults the nominal stat bonuses vs shadows/lunar The choice there is also by definition between perks. You can't even choose an allignment. So What? The reason I bring this up is to showcase a pretty clear trend of allignment going from something that was associated with picking a side to something where you end up choosing a major part of your character's kit. We were told during the days of Wilson's skill tree and the beginning of From Beyond that "choosing our side" was going to be a really important mechanic, and that we should "wait and see" as to what that would entail. Now in Klei's defense - From Beyond is not yet over. But I seriously have to wonder whether Klei has any intention to adhere to this idea of "choosing your side" being important if they straight-up remove the choice from Winona outright. It was already questionable enough when Wormwood got allignment-locked, but Winona straight up not having the option makes me ask - how is Klei planning to make allignment important? And more importantly - WILL they make it important? It seems like the original idea of allignment resulting in some greater purpose has been all but scrapped when all four of the latest skill trees add something way more impactful than Woodie/Wilson/Wolfgang's minor stat changes. Decide on a path - and make it consistent please The main thing that I ask is that Klei decide once and for all what the purpose of both allignment and the skill trees actually is. If ya'll are still planning on having some crazy-cool mechanics involving allignment, you really should reconsider both allignment-locking, and this practice of tying desirable and important perks to specific allignments. Otherwise, ya'll seriously need to go back and look at previous trees, because the discrepancy between Wigfrid, Woodie, Wilson and Wolfgang's trees when compared to Winona, Wurt, Wormwood and Willow is pretty absurd. If we treated the former four like the latter four we'd probably have: Pure Brilliance and Shadow dumbells that infuse Wolfgang's muscles with allignment energy. The planar damage boosts would likely also be tied to allignment. Lunar and Shadow wereforms with unique abilities each. Things like the planar punch or being able to mine dreadstone/pure brilliance would likely be tied to allignment. I honestly don't know for Wilson but that's probably because his skill tree was ill-conceived and bland. Special side effects on the songs like extra projectile attacks or shadow dodges or whatever. The Elding spear wouldn't be so blatantly lunar themed and/or would have a counterpart item of shadow weaponry. The planar defense bonus probably wouldn't just be a random solo skill and probably be tied to one of her allignments. To Planar or not to planar It also seems pretty unreasonable that the later skill trees have now tended much more toward allignment-based skills filling the planar-shaped gaps in a character's combat-related perks when previously this was not at all the case. Wigfrid, Woodie and Wolfgang can all select planar-related perks without ever having beaten either CC nor FW. Wigfrid's spear has planar but is available only just before CC rather than after it, and doesn't require beating CC at all. Willow's is post CC/FW but can be used in worlds from day one once unlocked. Winona's are like Wigfrid's elding spear in terms of being usable just barely pre-rifts but unlike Wigfrid she has to choose between two different "sides", while not needing to beat CC OR FW. Wurt's require FW and CC but both can be triggered pre-rifts. Wormwood has no choice but requires CC to be beaten and one side of his branch can be used entirely pre CC while the other is exclusive to post CC materials. Like I'm sorry but this is just an inexcusable mess. There is NO consistency here AT ALL. Klei, please, for the love of Alter - can ya'll PLEASE decide WTF planar actually is instead of vomiting it all over the skill trees with no consistency at all? I was under the impression that skill trees were meant to help incentivise newer players to continue playing, giving them a sense of progression. So I have to ask - what is a new player meant to do with a stat like "Wigfrid now has +5 planar defense"? Ignoring the fact that this is placebo levels of defense, a new player is going to have precisely zero idea what planar actually is. Nor should they need to - this is a post CC/FW mechanic. So treat it that way! It's also pretty ridiculous that whether or not a planar perk or allignment perk is pre or post CC/FW seems to just be a complete toss-up. Some characters have to beat FW/CC to get any planar perks at all. Some characters can get planar right before CC. Some characters can get planar day one. Some characters can use post-CC and post-FW perks from day one. Other characters need to at bare minimum start moonstorms or beat NMWP to do so. My personal reccomendation In my opinion, Wurt, Wormwood, Winona and Willow's trees have their allignment-based perks baked into their trees to a level that makes it unrealistic to reverse course on those skills existing. A lot of the mechanics are really cool to play around with, and it's clear that a lot of passion went into them. I like them, the community likes them. So we are probably stuck with allignment adding planar-based perks to characters. With that in mind, let me lay out what I think are sensible rules. ALL perks that relate to planar MUST be tied behind choosing an allignment and MUST require beating CC/FW to unlock. ALL perks that relate to allignment MUST be tied to specifically making a character's kit more viable post-rifts. No more random perks. ALL perks that relate to allignment are only selectable if the respective rifts are open in your current world (I.E you don't have to take part in the CC/FW fight if you have done so before). ALL perks that provide planar must use Lunar or Shadow themed visuals. No more random moose punch planar bonuses. ALL perks that provide planar must require some sort of Lunar or Shadow themed activation method. No more Lunar/Shadow Bernie popping in out of thin air. I understand that these rules seem like they would "ruin" a lot of characters, but there are ways to avoid making characters actively more miserable to play without compromising their design. That having been said, let me run through each character in an attempt to be "minimalist" with the number of changes. My attempt at a "minimalist" solution Important reminder: I am trying to be minimalist here, not creative or interesting. My number one goal is to clean out all the non-allignment planar, and provide the character lunar/shadow options for their weaponary. That does require me suggesting some new features, but I am avoiding things like Lunar/Shadow goose/beaver or suggesting new perks for Wilson. I will also try my best to retain useful pre-rifts allignment skills by turning them into normal skills. Wilson: No applicable changes. Doesn't have random planar perks, and doesn't have any exclusive weaponary/combat related perks. Wolfgang All three planar damage bonus skills removed, their effects are instead added onto his three allignment skills on each side. New Shadow/Lunar themed dumbells that have a planar component when thrown. These dumbells could perhaps replace some of the allignment skills and provide their effects indirectly I.E instead of having planar/extra damage to shadows or lunar innately, you gain these attributes after lifting with them. Woodie Moose's mastery no longer deals bonus planar damage. Moose no longer has a skill that provides planar defense. Shadow and Lunar allignment skills are now "normal" skills - remain mutually exclusive. Now has Lunar and Shadow Moose forms as allignment, the previous two skills are now prerequisites for the Lunar/Shadow allignment. Requires a new idol crafted with Pure Horror/Pure Brilliance Basically, you don't need to beat FW to be immune to nightmares in wereform, nor CC to be immune to full moons. But you still can't have both of them at once, and you need the respective skill + a CC/FW kill to unlock allignment. Lunar and Shadow moose have planar damage and planar defense. Ideally the two forms would have differing stats. Wormwood Saladmander, Lightbug and Carrat skills no longer require killing CC Saladmander skill now has Three tiers - T2 and T3 are locked behind CC These allow you to infuse Saladmanders with pure brilliance for planar damage T2 would have the woke eyes. Its bite now has a planar component. T3 the Saladmander becomes "ripe" but instead of red it is blue and shoots lunar flames. It retains the woke eyes. The lunar flame also has a planar component. Lunar Guardian T2 now allows Wormwood to create a Brightshade-themed Bramble Trap This deals similar/same damage as the base trap, but has a planar component to it. Works with the specialist skill. Wigfrid Lunar/Shadow songs now provide substantial and interesting bonuses. The two should definitely do different things to one another - or at least do the same thing in a different manner. Planar defense skill no longer exists. There's honestly no simple way to address Wigfrid's planar situation, but I did my best so here we go: Lunar/Shadow allignment has a T2 option Lunar T2 allows you to infuse (almost) any weapon with extra planar damage using Restrained Static. Shadow T2 allows you to infuse (almost) any item of armour with extra planar defense using some shadow material. Could be vice-versa, I just based it on the spear being lunar themed. Battle Rond (And Shield of Cthulu) can be infused by either T2 as they are both weapon and armour. The bonus defense/damage would work out to be about the same as Wigfrid's 25% modifiers. Charged Elding spear skill removed. Gains the usual charged spear perks when lunar infused. Bonus planar defense skill for Commander Helm removed. Gains more planar defense when shadow infused. Willow New skill: Flamethrower A non-lunar version of lunar flames. Probably about the same power level. No planar component. Replaced by lunar flames if it is unlocked. New skill: Seeking flames A non-shadow version of shadow flames. Probably about the same power level. No planar component. Replaced by shadow flames if they are unlocked. Flamethrower and Seeking Flames are mutually exclusive. Flamethrower and seeking Flames are prerequisites for their respective allignment version. Lunar Flames now requires a lighter upgraded/crafted with pure brilliance to cast. Shadow Flames now requires a lighter upgraded/crafted with pure horror to cast. Lunar Bernie is now a craft. Also has a normal-sized form that retains the 15 planar defense. Shadow Bernie is now a craft. Also has a normal-sized form that retains the 15 planar defense. Wurt T1 Lunar allignment is now a normal skill Using Pure Brilliance to grant planar is moved to T2 (Now T1) Lunar allignment Still mutually exclusive with shadow skills Still requires 12 other skills Still a prerequisite for T2 T1 Shadow allignment is now a normal skill Using Pure Horror to grant planar is moved to T2 (Now T1) Shadow allignment Still mutually exclusive with shadow skills Still requires 12 other skills Still a prerequisite for T2 Winona Brilliance G.E.M.erator now behaves like an allignment skill (requires lunar rifts open to be selected) Pure Horror Generator now behaves like an allignment skill (requires shadow rifts open to be selected) Conclusions/Future of allignment In regards to my suggested changes, if anyone has a specific concern about a loss of gameplay I am all ears. My biggest compromises were definitely on Wurt and Winona, as their Pure Horror bonuses are available much sooner than their Pure Brilliance versions (which are basically post CC already), but I think these are overall somewhat minor concerns. Overall as I said I was trying to keep the current version of the character intact, while making their trees more cohesive with one another. I also tried to remove lunar/shadow theming where I felt it didn't belong, but I kept it in for cases like Wurt's mutated Merms, as it isn't really something you can un-lunarify or un-shadowify and the mutated merms do have genuine earlygame application. As for the future of allignment, I can only say: I would definitely still appreciate it if a character's actual allignment had more effects than just 10% damage boosts/resistances. We're pretty much locked-in to having Lunar vs. Shadow perks be a big part of a character's skill tree, but I really was looking forward to the idea of having to "choose my side" beyond just determining a couple of character-specific perks. Shadow Reaper talking is cool and all, but it's not nearly enough. I also think there's probably some room to add more "innate" qualities to allignment if you listen to my suggestion of requiring the world to be post-rifts. Things like replacing insanity with lunacy, or always being attacked by greater gestalts, or other crazy effects would be much more reasonable if they're not available from day 1. Not saying it has to be one of those specifically ofc, just trying to give an example of the level of difference I am referring to. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toroic Posted June 30, 2024 Share Posted June 30, 2024 I like that you opened up a discussion about the inconsistency around affinity skills, and I personally hate how Wolfgang’s work for several reasons. 1) He has 3 points to invest in each side, and they’re all just pure number tweaks. 2) Lunar affinity is hugely beneficial until you beat Fuelweaver, as it applies to shadow pieces, ancient guardian, and perhaps most impactfully, regular shadows. Wolfgang getting an additional 30% multiplicative damage against a fairly common and basic enemy is a massive buff pre-rifts that Wolfgang didn’t want or need. I agree with you that it seems like the most recently released skill trees have the affinity skills be focused on planar and post-rift content, but this is relatively new and makes the skill tree design feel disjointed. Overall, I think the newer skill tree designs are better than the older ones (Wolfgang and Wilson are straight up bad in concept and execution) but would really like to see it pushed more into Binding of Isaac style B-side characters with the affinity abilities, and planar boosts baked into the base kit and not dependent entirely on a particular skill setup Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
arubaro Posted June 30, 2024 Share Posted June 30, 2024 47 minutes ago, Toros said: I like that you opened up a discussion about the inconsistency around affinity skills, and I personally hate how Wolfgang’s work for several reasons. 1) He has 3 points to invest in each side, and they’re all just pure number tweaks. 2) Lunar affinity is hugely beneficial until you beat Fuelweaver, as it applies to shadow pieces, ancient guardian, and perhaps most impactfully, regular shadows. Wolfgang getting an additional 30% multiplicative damage against a fairly common and basic enemy is a massive buff pre-rifts that Wolfgang didn’t want or need. I agree with you that it seems like the most recently released skill trees have the affinity skills be focused on planar and post-rift content, but this is relatively new and makes the skill tree design feel disjointed. Overall, I think the newer skill tree designs are better than the older ones (Wolfgang and Wilson are straight up bad in concept and execution) but would really like to see it pushed more into Binding of Isaac style B-side characters with the affinity abilities, and planar boosts baked into the base kit and not dependent entirely on a particular skill setup Agree. I dont get why they didnt make an effort with wolfgang and wigfrid affinities. Is also funny to see that they "wont make an effort on strong's characters tree because they have so much already" which makes no sense, why doing skill trees in the first place?, but instead of doing a little fun thing like dreadstone dumbbell that infuse the mighty bar with planar power/pure brillance dumbbell that can be throwed like BS bombs to deal massive planar damage (or whatever, they are very creative when they want) they simply boost even futher his damage... I cant understand Wigfrid's affinity perks.. they could have give the shadow tentacle effect(like wurt's dreadstone staff)/summoning gestals to these songs even if in a low chance or whatever but flashier and more useful that an insignificant raw stats buff In general, klei should stop abusing that much of stat boost. This game has so many cool mechanics plus the ones that can be added to simply add "5% stat boost" perks...feels rushed when is used on affinities or when spammed like in Wolfgang's tree 56 minutes ago, Toros said: Lunar affinity is hugely beneficial until you beat Fuelweaver Because we need new mobs and biomes with moon related stuff and a well developed enlightement mechanic instead of such uncomplete and forgotten bland mechanic Instead we will get even more bosses to fill +10 years old RoG's map Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybers2001 Posted July 1, 2024 Share Posted July 1, 2024 I like the Winona approach to alignment over, say, Wolfgang, personally. If choosing a path is only a matter of which side you do more damage to, then it invites "hot swapping" of perks, which brings us back to portal abuse. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deactive41year Posted July 1, 2024 Share Posted July 1, 2024 Personally I usualy go lunar but I don't do any alignment for wurt because I don't like them as a concept. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731036 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassielu Posted July 1, 2024 Share Posted July 1, 2024 At one time I thought the "pick sides" effect would be achieved through player aligned tags, something like being able to hear shadow reapper speak, but important. But now with one character completely out of the system, I can't imagine how Klei can make it matter. The same goes for skilltree, the three early skilltrees we got were pretty restrained despite being powerful - you couldn't get anything planar before rift, and even their allignment icon was the same. But skilltree right now is an absolute insanity mechanism lock in and power creep. Same as character rework it gets more and more presumptuous, I feel like we'll never have balanced characters and complete world. I doubt that the "bigger picture" really exists, or it's just something vague like "We're going to add more stuff to this". Klei seems to be just taking things one step at a time, as before, without considering the whole things. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731060 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anis5240 Posted July 1, 2024 Share Posted July 1, 2024 11 minutes ago, Cassielu said: power creep in before I inserted the video from the February stream just for this statement (yes, I'm still extra salty over the fact a mere rework onto Wilson's torch tree is considered powercreep by Klei). Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuteC Posted July 1, 2024 Share Posted July 1, 2024 I love the skill trees' MASSIVE escalation between updates. Wilson: you can craft 2 materials you cannot really do much with them right now lol have fun. Woodie: have a solution to some minor annoyances, you can only choose one and the better option is lunar. Wigfrid: if you get like 20 people fighting you can deal the extra damage of 1 entire person wow this sure is great. Wurt: EMBRACE THE POWER OF UNKNOWN GODS AND DEMOLISH ANYTHING IN YOUR PATH WITH AN ARMY OF MERMS CORRUPTED WITH POWERS BEYOND YOUR COMPREHENSION. I really hope they do not leave out the previous chars, I hate being Wigfrid and just choosing dealing a bit more damage to shadows because they're the obvious choice since they spawn anywhere. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wormboi Posted July 1, 2024 Share Posted July 1, 2024 5 minutes ago, CuteC said: Wigfrid: if you get like 20 people fighting you can deal the extra damage of 1 entire person wow this sure is great. Willow: You get to biden blast people, and a weak shadow fire thing that spreads out. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted July 1, 2024 Share Posted July 1, 2024 59 minutes ago, Wormboi said: weak shadow fire 750 damage iirc 8 hours ago, Masked Koopa said: We were told during the days of Wilson's skill tree and the beginning of From Beyond that "choosing our side" was going to be a really important mechanic, and that we should "wait and see" as to what that would entail maybe they literally meant that you'd get good perks for that 6 hours ago, cybers2001 said: it invites "hot swapping" of perks, which brings us back to portal abuse i don't see an issue with that 8 hours ago, Masked Koopa said: Wilson: No applicable changes. Doesn't have random planar perks, and doesn't have any exclusive weaponary/combat related perks. Wolfgang All three planar damage bonus skills removed, their effects are instead added onto his three allignment skills on each side. New Shadow/Lunar themed dumbells that have a planar component when thrown. These dumbells could perhaps replace some of the allignment skills and provide their effects indirectly I.E instead of having planar/extra damage to shadows or lunar innately, you gain these attributes after lifting with them. Woodie Moose's mastery no longer deals bonus planar damage. Moose no longer has a skill that provides planar defense. Shadow and Lunar allignment skills are now "normal" skills - remain mutually exclusive. Now has Lunar and Shadow Moose forms as allignment, the previous two skills are now prerequisites for the Lunar/Shadow allignment. Requires a new idol crafted with Pure Horror/Pure Brilliance Basically, you don't need to beat FW to be immune to nightmares in wereform, nor CC to be immune to full moons. But you still can't have both of them at once, and you need the respective skill + a CC/FW kill to unlock allignment. Lunar and Shadow moose have planar damage and planar defense. Ideally the two forms would have differing stats. Wormwood Saladmander, Lightbug and Carrat skills no longer require killing CC Saladmander skill now has Three tiers - T2 and T3 are locked behind CC These allow you to infuse Saladmanders with pure brilliance for planar damage T2 would have the woke eyes. Its bite now has a planar component. T3 the Saladmander becomes "ripe" but instead of red it is blue and shoots lunar flames. It retains the woke eyes. The lunar flame also has a planar component. Lunar Guardian T2 now allows Wormwood to create a Brightshade-themed Bramble Trap This deals similar/same damage as the base trap, but has a planar component to it. Works with the specialist skill. Wigfrid Lunar/Shadow songs now provide substantial and interesting bonuses. The two should definitely do different things to one another - or at least do the same thing in a different manner. Planar defense skill no longer exists. There's honestly no simple way to address Wigfrid's planar situation, but I did my best so here we go: Lunar/Shadow allignment has a T2 option Lunar T2 allows you to infuse (almost) any weapon with extra planar damage using Restrained Static. Shadow T2 allows you to infuse (almost) any item of armour with extra planar defense using some shadow material. Could be vice-versa, I just based it on the spear being lunar themed. Battle Rond (And Shield of Cthulu) can be infused by either T2 as they are both weapon and armour. The bonus defense/damage would work out to be about the same as Wigfrid's 25% modifiers. Charged Elding spear skill removed. Gains the usual charged spear perks when lunar infused. Bonus planar defense skill for Commander Helm removed. Gains more planar defense when shadow infused. Willow New skill: Flamethrower A non-lunar version of lunar flames. Probably about the same power level. No planar component. Replaced by lunar flames if it is unlocked. New skill: Seeking flames A non-shadow version of shadow flames. Probably about the same power level. No planar component. Replaced by shadow flames if they are unlocked. Flamethrower and Seeking Flames are mutually exclusive. Flamethrower and seeking Flames are prerequisites for their respective allignment version. Lunar Flames now requires a lighter upgraded/crafted with pure brilliance to cast. Shadow Flames now requires a lighter upgraded/crafted with pure horror to cast. Lunar Bernie is now a craft. Also has a normal-sized form that retains the 15 planar defense. Shadow Bernie is now a craft. Also has a normal-sized form that retains the 15 planar defense. Wurt T1 Lunar allignment is now a normal skill Using Pure Brilliance to grant planar is moved to T2 (Now T1) Lunar allignment Still mutually exclusive with shadow skills Still requires 12 other skills Still a prerequisite for T2 T1 Shadow allignment is now a normal skill Using Pure Horror to grant planar is moved to T2 (Now T1) Shadow allignment Still mutually exclusive with shadow skills Still requires 12 other skills Still a prerequisite for T2 Winona Brilliance G.E.M.erator now behaves like an allignment skill (requires lunar rifts open to be selected) Pure Horror Generator now behaves like an allignment skill (requires shadow rifts open to be selected) idk what's the point of those considering that you still get good and different perks for alignment that way so that wouldn't work for making alignment not matter much for them to be able to add something that wouldn't be character specific and'd work depending on alignment and idk what's the point of trying to make all skill trees work same way otherwise Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakepeng99 Posted July 1, 2024 Share Posted July 1, 2024 2 hours ago, CuteC said: the better option is lunar. Its shadow. 2 hours ago, Wormboi said: Willow: You get to biden blast people, and a weak shadow fire thing that spreads out. Shadow is overall better, again. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masked Koopa Posted July 1, 2024 Author Share Posted July 1, 2024 1 hour ago, grm9 said: idk what's the point of those considering that you still get good and different perks for alignment that way so that wouldn't work for making alignment not matter much for them to be able to add something that wouldn't be character specific and'd work depending on alignment and idk what's the point of trying to make all skill trees work same way otherwise The point of it is to increase the level of consistency between trees in regard to what allignment-based perks actually do, without significantly changing the existing trees in terms of mechanics. As well as moving planar to be in the appropriate part of the tree as opposed to random locations in the tree that serve only to confuse new players. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted July 1, 2024 Share Posted July 1, 2024 1 minute ago, Masked Koopa said: The point of it is to increase the level of consistency between trees in regard to what allignment-based perks actually do i don't see why'd you do that, consistency doesn't need to be Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731099 Share on other sites More sharing options...
arubaro Posted July 1, 2024 Share Posted July 1, 2024 2 hours ago, CuteC said: Woodie: have a solution to some minor annoyances, you can only choose one and the better option is lunar. I think shadow is way better Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masked Koopa Posted July 1, 2024 Author Share Posted July 1, 2024 7 minutes ago, grm9 said: i don't see why'd you do that, consistency doesn't need to be The reason you'd do that is that is makes the system more understandable and more friendly toward new players, as well as more befitting of the game's progression. The game is made actively worse when planar skills have absolutely zero unlock requirements because it exposes players to a mechanic they don't need to know about. An increased level of attachment to the lunar and shadow aspects also increases thematic cohesion, which I think is very much in Klei's interest. I do not think anything is lost by making these changes, and if you disagree I would appreciate an specific example because I'm genuinely having a hard time telling what your point of disagreement actually is. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted July 1, 2024 Share Posted July 1, 2024 7 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said: The reason you'd do that is that is makes the system more understandable and more friendly toward new players, as well as more befitting of the game's progression. The game is made actively worse when planar skills have absolutely zero unlock requirements because it exposes players to a mechanic they don't need to know about i'm talking about changes like making woodie's and willow's stuff require rifts stuff, not moving stuff like moose's planar punch and wolfgang's planar perks into alignments 8 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said: I do not think anything is lost by making these changes, and if you disagree I would appreciate an specific example because I'm genuinely having a hard time telling what your point of disagreement actually is wolfgang, woodie, willow and winona getting nerfed for no reason Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masked Koopa Posted July 1, 2024 Author Share Posted July 1, 2024 32 minutes ago, grm9 said: i'm talking about changes like making woodie's and willow's stuff require rifts stuff, not moving stuff like moose's planar punch and wolfgang's planar perks into alignments wolfgang, woodie, willow and winona getting nerfed for no reason The level of material cost here would be nominal at most, the primary intent is to further thematic coherency. In the case of Willow, the lighter would still be refuelable and Bernie would still be sewable. So this would be a totally nominal one-time cost of like 1 Brilliance per lighter/lunar Bernie (which you realistically only ever need one of). In the case of Woodie, you could probably get away with something to the degree of 1 Pure Brilliance + 5 moose idols = 5 lunar moose idols. Alternatively, he could perhaps be given a charm or something to that effect that is crafted with Pure Brilliance and causes any moose transformation to become lunar moose if it is in his inventory. Wolfgang I didn't have anything super concrete, the main reason I brought up the idea of the allignment dumbells potentially providing the boosts of the planar/allignment skills was that it'd allow Wolfgang to "compress" his existing skills - leaving more room on his tree for new skills. I am not a Wolfgang main (I.E I don't know what Wolfgang players would prefer) - the idea of allignment dumbells providing boosts was not intended to be in any way a nerf. It's also not a nessecary component of my suggestions, hence why I listed it as a possibility and not a concrete suggestion. As for Winona, the only thing these changes do on the lunar side is make it so you can only use Pure Brilliance Gemerator after you've beaten CC as opposed to after you've started moonstorms. It's a difference of beating one boss, one you're clearly planning to beat if you went through the effort of summoning moonstorms. As I said I do acknowlege that her Pure Horror generator would be pushed more down the line, but I am hesitant to say it is a bad thing for the lunar and shadow aspects of her tree to be more evenly matched, especially given people already seem to consider the shadow side superior. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted July 1, 2024 Share Posted July 1, 2024 39 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said: In the case of Willow, the lighter would still be refuelable and Bernie would still be sewable. So this would be a totally nominal one-time cost of like 1 Brilliance per lighter/lunar Bernie (which you realistically only ever need one of) that'd still lock things that you'd use during early game behind late game though except shadow fire 40 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said: In the case of Woodie, you could probably get away with something to the degree of 1 Pure Brilliance + 5 moose idols = 5 lunar moose idols. Alternatively, he could perhaps be given a charm or something to that effect that is crafted with Pure Brilliance and causes any moose transformation to become lunar moose if it is in his inventory there's also needing to kill 1 out of 2 bosses that immunity to nightmares's useful on as moose to get it and you wouldn't be able to use it as e.g. beaver even though it's useful when playing as beaver because you have axe damage and need to spend a lot of time on killing nightmares and idk how's immunity to full moon transformation going to work considering that the point's not turning into an animal on full moons, not not getting the transformation extended through full moon 43 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said: I am not a Wolfgang main (I.E I don't know what Wolfgang players would prefer) most of them want old wolfgang back so ig there isn't much to disappoint through 44 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said: As for Winona, the only thing these changes do on the lunar side is make it so you can only use Pure Brilliance Gemerator after you've beaten CC as opposed to after you've started moonstorms. It's a difference of beating one boss, one you're clearly planning to beat if you went through the effort of summoning moonstorms. As I said I do acknowlege that her Pure Horror generator would be pushed more down the line, but I am hesitant to say it is a bad thing for the lunar and shadow aspects of her tree to be more evenly matched, especially given people already seem to consider the shadow side superior pure horror shots suck though, there isn't much to use them on since you're missing out on dps if you're running around because catapults might miss and you won't be able to attack and make them attack and there aren't many things that run around on their own except easy bosses like werepig Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masked Koopa Posted July 1, 2024 Author Share Posted July 1, 2024 7 minutes ago, grm9 said: that'd still lock things that you'd use during early game behind late game though except shadow fire I don't think you properly read my post. I specifically gave Willow "normal" versions of her allignment spells that don't have lunar/shadow theming and do not have planar, because I know that Willow players like having access to those spells in the early game. 8 minutes ago, grm9 said: there's also needing to kill 1 out of 2 bosses that immunity to nightmares's useful on as moose to get it and you wouldn't be able to use it as e.g. beaver even though it's useful when playing as beaver because you have axe damage and need to spend a lot of time on killing nightmares and idk how's immunity to full moon transformation going to work considering that the point's not turning into an animal on full moons, not not getting the transformation extended through full moon I think I might have worded this one poorly, but to clarify: My suggestion was to make it so current affinity perks woodie has are changed so that they are normal perks (i.e you don't have to open rifts to select them). These perks would still be mutually exclusive (i.e you can't be immune to shadows and full moon at the same time) and would now be unlock requirements for the new allignment perks. The allignment perks would be two new perks that specifically focus on granting the Weremoose a shadow or lunar form. This form would grant the Weremoose planar bonuses, as well as possibly some different stats/special abilities to make them more interesting. Basically: You would still be able to use the nightmare immunity and full moon immunity without having oepened the rifts. 13 minutes ago, grm9 said: pure horror shots suck though, there isn't much to use them on since you're missing out on dps if you're running around because catapults might miss and you won't be able to attack and make them attack and there aren't many things that run around on their own except easy bosses like werepig My primary concern here was that the pure horror shots introduce planar perks to Winona pre-rifts. If Pure Horror shots suck they could probably be tuned to be more reasonable. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731112 Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted July 1, 2024 Share Posted July 1, 2024 11 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said: I don't think you properly read my post. I specifically gave Willow "normal" versions of her allignment spells that don't have lunar/shadow theming and do not have planar, because I know that Willow players like having access to those spells in the early game i mostly meant bernie, since planar entity protection makes him take around twice as little damage from most bosses 11 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said: This form would grant the Weremoose planar bonuses moose already only deals planar damage when attacking planar stuff so there isn't a need for that 11 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said: My primary concern here was that the pure horror shots introduce planar perks to Winona pre-rifts i don't see an issue with that considering that there's no difference between it dealing 14 normal damage and 20 planar damage and 34 normal damage without planar damage against stuff without planar protection or defence or normal armor Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731113 Share on other sites More sharing options...
arubaro Posted July 1, 2024 Share Posted July 1, 2024 1 hour ago, grm9 said: mostly meant bernie, since planar entity protection makes him take around twice as little damage from most bosses Makes no sense to have a planar entity before rifts. It should cost something like how wurt uses rift's materials to upgrade her army Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masked Koopa Posted July 1, 2024 Author Share Posted July 1, 2024 3 hours ago, grm9 said: i mostly meant bernie, since planar entity protection makes him take around twice as little damage from most bosses I'm not a Willow main, and when I do play her I avoid Bernie like the plague since I find him to be not worth the hassle, so it's hard for me to judge how impactful that is. I wasn't aware that his form has planar entity stats, since the listed boons seemed to use planar armour similar to players. I think realistically it would either be exclusive to post-rifts, OR if Willow mains consider it to be important to their pre-rifts gameplay it could perhaps be turned into a damage resistance innate to Bernie that achieves a similar level of reduction to planar entity protection. Either way it should be a solvable problem. 3 hours ago, grm9 said: moose already only deals planar damage when attacking planar stuff so there isn't a need for that i don't see an issue with that considering that there's no difference between it dealing 14 normal damage and 20 planar damage and 34 normal damage without planar damage against stuff without planar protection or defence or normal armor I know how planar works - my entire gripe is that I do not think planar bonuses should be coming into play before rifts are active. I literally listed the Moose's planar being removed from the third punch for that exact reason. If you disagree with my opinion that planar should only be available via post-rift allignment that is fine, but we will have to agree to disagree because I am not open to being persuaded on that matter. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshyds Posted July 1, 2024 Share Posted July 1, 2024 Honestly i think its just for the 'vibe' of the skills at this point, woodie has wereform masteries limited to 1 so its a similar idea anyway. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakepeng99 Posted July 1, 2024 Share Posted July 1, 2024 15 hours ago, Toros said: I like that you opened up a discussion about the inconsistency around affinity skills, and I personally hate how Wolfgang’s work for several reasons. 1) He has 3 points to invest in each side, and they’re all just pure number tweaks. 2) Lunar affinity is hugely beneficial until you beat Fuelweaver, as it applies to shadow pieces, ancient guardian, and perhaps most impactfully, regular shadows. Wolfgang getting an additional 30% multiplicative damage against a fairly common and basic enemy is a massive buff pre-rifts that Wolfgang didn’t want or need. I agree with you that it seems like the most recently released skill trees have the affinity skills be focused on planar and post-rift content, but this is relatively new and makes the skill tree design feel disjointed. Overall, I think the newer skill tree designs are better than the older ones (Wolfgang and Wilson are straight up bad in concept and execution) but would really like to see it pushed more into Binding of Isaac style B-side characters with the affinity abilities, and planar boosts baked into the base kit and not dependent entirely on a particular skill setup Wolfgang skilltree is weird in general. They gave him a little amount of stuff so he wont seem op, and then gave him that 30% damage buff. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted July 1, 2024 Share Posted July 1, 2024 30 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said: I know how planar works - my entire gripe is that I do not think planar bonuses should be coming into play before rifts are active i don't see an issue with it considering that you might not even know that it's there until you start fighting stuff with planar entity protection or defence or normal armor assuming that something that you can't apply damage multipliers to deals it and no one tells you 30 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said: I literally listed the Moose's planar being removed from the third punch for that exact reason but it already doesn't deal planar damage if whatever you're fighting doesn't have planar entity protection iirc Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157767-allignment-the-mechanic-sucks-and-klei-needs-to-decide-what-the-path-forward-is/#findComment-1731160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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