Why so much skilltree filler?

[marshyds]

Why are so many skills just so... bloated?

Wurt for example has an amphibian branch, which is really just 4 skills doubled into 7 thanks to the 3 having II tiers (EDIT: The sanity thing could definitely be compressed, but the two seperate abilities could stay in two tiers.)

The hunger branch is fine if you want to basically scale merm king hunger (especially since it isint attached to a cooler skill)

The mosquito stuff isin't even good enough to be 3 skills but thats besides the point right now. Could be reduced to 2 if you include the itchy buddy into the second skill.

The kelp dish, tool and armor shed are 3 skills mitosis'ed into 6. You could give the tier I sheds and advantage of being way cheaper when producing axes and armors than the tier II better, expensive tools and armor 

Making room by just compressing existing skills could also give the ravenous wurt mains what they actually want, without killing existing skills. (Just destroy the mosquito stuff and kelp dish though.) (EDIT: While every skill doesn't have to be compressed, the useless mosquito branch could be replaced and the dish could be reworked in some way to be more useful.)

I am being geniune when i say that with stuff like the wurt allignments it is clear you can make great things for her, but just making it 66% combat doesn't make sense when her merms were already cheap and plentiful.

The merm king quest branch too is an example of a great set of skills, because each of them does something new while keeping on theme with the premise they have, even if its just combat again (But it's unique combat, giving them dodge, built in armor and karate.)

In general, skills should always add SOMETHING new, along with a stat buff for the previous skill if you want. Having a conga line composed of the same guy isin't very fun. (EDIT: Ignore this part, i see my mistake. Just please don't overfill a skilltree with them.)

EDIT: In terms of the filler itself, when it comes to CRAFTING, the tier II sheds are easy to get. So whats the point? similar issue to the kelp dish. Atleast with previous filler it adds to your stats gradually, but just being easily replaced essentially makes these an empty 3 skill points.

 

[Anis5240]

Same goes for all skill tree to be honest. The existence of filler perks is just... uninspired, you get what I mean? Wilson's torch tree, Wolfgang's gym, Wigfrid's beefalo, Woodie's quick pick, etc.

Those can just be base kits and no one would bat an eye.

[paodocevoante1]

19 minutes ago, Anis5240 said:

Same goes for all skill tree to be honest. The existence of filler perks is just... uninspired, you get what I mean? Wilson's torch tree, Wolfgang's gym, Wigfrid's beefalo, Woodie's quick pick, etc.

Those can just be base kits and no one would bat an eye.

hey!! filler perks are good and useful, but in the case of wurt it seems that her entire skill is a filler perk (aka the entire skill tree that isn't about the amphibious part and the merm king).

[cameron8800]

I especially hate the tool shed and armory. By the time you can build the first tier you can build the second tier. There’s no sense of advancement. 

[Frashaw27]

I honestly don't see why people are so against simple number changes for the skill trees. Sure it could come off as uninspired, but I'd rather much prefer a skill tree doesn't try much then one that tries to make every single skill do something unique and fail horribly (See: the fruit fly skill from the original version of the Wormwood Skilltree). While things like the Wagstaff caches and and the Bramble Armor triple hit are the true attention bringers, it also has to be balanced out with more sensical perks like faster pick speeds and natural planar defense to allow not only breathing room from the big stuff but to also provide more consistent perks to your build that you aren't gambling will be useful. For example, people could gamble on the Dumbbell crafting skill as Wolfgang but it has a lot more personal uses that would differ between playstyles and strategies then the planar damage increase perks. They're boring, but I don't think that's the bad thing. For example, I think Winona's Skill tree balanced it pretty well with allowing a nice mesh of pure stat upgrades and new things. It allows het to play with her new toys, but also have to consider if she wants to be generally more effective or to chase after the new shiny thing. I do sympathize with Wurt players if her Skill Tree was indeed kinda filled to the brim with stat increase perks (I have no way of knowing if she does or not, I haven't played her) as that is the wrong way to do it. The Wolfgang Skill Tree is considered the worst one because Klei leaned too heavy on the stat boost increase skills. The best way is to have a natural balance between the two, enough that you'd end up picking a handful but not so much that they'd compose 70% of your build. 
I also disagree that they would be equally as impactful if simply added to the character's base. It would not only bloat the character's inital design to Walter levels (Suddenly Wormwood can now grow mushroom planters more efficently, if generally more effective in all types of blooming, and naturally regains hp for the cost of nothing besides existing doesn't sound pretty "wouldn't bat an eye" worthy) but also just would kinda make skill trees worse imo as now there is no breathing room between the big things and you can suddenly take a lot more of them unless you also heavily reduce the number of skill points. You can be mad about the implementation of certain skills as things like the torch tree are just objectively bad, but don't also deem those perks unnecessary as there are a need part of making a skill tree feel like a slow build up of progress instead of piling on a crap ton of gameplay redefining skills which could feel overwhelming imo.

[chirsg]

Idk. I was just playing on a pub and surprisingly, no 2 wurts had the same perks. Moreover, each wurt had varied enough trees to actually synergize with one another. Pretty interesting all things considered

[kroban]

 

1 hour ago, marshyds said:

In general, skills should always add SOMETHING new, along with a stat buff for the previous skill if you want. Having a conga line composed of the same guy isin't very fun.

Skill trees barely add something new on each single point, thats an insane idea, mostly because for an indie company like Klei it would take probably like a year to design just one single tree. Go check any other game that has a skill tree system, in almost all games a good skill tree is mostly numbers or "QoL" improvements of an existing kit with SOME unique abilities or mechanics after progressing through the branches.

And fillers exist for a reason, a skill tree is a branched system where the player invest limited points to gain an improvement on some areas of the character while sacrificing other areas, which adds customization and replayability in like "trying different routes". The "conga lines with the same guy" are used as locks for balancing, if you want for example the 20% damage boost in catapults as Winona you have to spend 3 points rather than just 1. And if you also want to increase the fire rate that would mean 6 points rather than just 1 or 2.

Also, Klei devs themselves have been saying countless times already that these skill trees are mostly a tuning up on the existing kits for the characters. I understand the hype, but really, you expect them to overload a character with 30 unique active abilities on each skill tree or what?

[marshyds]

31 minutes ago, kroban said:

The "conga lines with the same guy" are used as locks for balancing, if you want for example the 20% damage boost in catapults as Winona you have to spend 3 points rather than just 1. And if you also want to increase the fire rate that would mean 6 points rather than just 1 or 2.

Also, Klei devs themselves have been saying countless times already that these skill trees are mostly a tuning up on the existing kits for the characters. I understand the hype, but really, you expect them to overload a character with 30 unique active abilities on each skill tree or what?

I see my mistake. the worry mostly came from the fact that there just tends to be a lot of it, especially on wolfgang.

In terms of the tune up, i can see the idea of it, it's just a bit dissapointing with how wurt's skilltree is basically 66% combat when it comes to what merms can actually do now.

Ive edited some things and made a point about the crafting tiers, which i think is justified.