Idea on how to make Wanda balanced

[marshyds]

= Wanda balancing =

Currently, in my opinion, Wanda's health timer perk is more of a buff than a downside...

- It just gives her insane damage at old age during fights

- You can just heal for free by crafting ageless watches.

- In addition to all that, she can teleport for free, revive others for free and has the notoriously busted clock whip.

= The downside =

According to her trailer, she was actively hunted by shadows, why not carry it over to the game?

- Sanity creatures will now ALWAYS spawn, regardless of sanity. (Though slower at maximum)

- As sanity goes lower, the maximum ammount of sanity creatures drastically ramps up. 

- Sanity creatures no sanity back for killing them.

- Wanda has a smaller sanity drain from nightmares

[Mike23Ua]

If you really and I mean REALLY want to see how to balance Wanda Klei’s so called “Glass Canon character” then you should probably maybe look at other games glass canons to see how their accurately portrayed.

For example: this mobile game I play called Rogue Slashers if you pick the “Knight” character he starts the game with a whopping 12 hearts of health and 2 shields.

If you pick the glass canon “Slayer” she has a pitiful 3 hearts of health and 0 shields.

The difference is that she deals major damage and can heal missing hearts with a very low % chance of it happening for her.

Obviously “Knight” can tank most encounters and gleefully slay his way through the game, where as “Slayer” will need to play far more cautiously.

Or to put this into TL:DR DST terms- Wanda needs the same amount of low health as fragile Maxwell.

Id honestly consider Maxwell more of a glass canon than Wanda.

[grm9]

she isn't too good, just boring, there's no need to nerf her, everyone can revive others by using grass and spider glands and she has less reward than wolfgang, i've wrote some ideas about how to increase risk and reward with a link to a mod that adds all of them in another thread

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155916-wanda-rework-ideas/

1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wanda needs the same amount of low health as fragile Maxwell

wanda has half of maxwell's hp when old but that doesn't matter because that's still 750 effective hp with night armor

[marshyds]

9 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

If you really and I mean REALLY want to see how to balance Wanda Klei’s so called “Glass Canon character” then you should probably maybe look at other games glass canons to see how their accurately portrayed.

The matter is that she has a very easy way to heal out of psychogranny mode, in addition to that she is able to sometimes cheat death by using the ageless w while her health is trickling down.

Wanda should just die instantly when hit in granny mode for true glass cannon, while health trickles down all the same.

[grm9]

15 minutes ago, marshyds said:

Wanda should just die instantly when hit in granny mode for true glass cannon, while health trickles down all the same

tbf that'd be disappointing because she has less dps than wolfgang

[marshyds]

Just now, grm9 said:

tbf that'd be disappointing because she has less dps than wolfgang

wanda has way more stuff than wolfgang, so matching damage isint a top priority

[grm9]

4 minutes ago, marshyds said:

wanda has way more stuff than wolfgang, so matching damage isint a top priority

literally just late game teleportation clocks since free healing won't work if you'll die after 1 hit

[Sacco]

9 minutes ago, grm9 said:

tbf that'd be disappointing because she has less dps than wolfgang

yes if we do the math:

WOLF+DARK SWORD= 272 dps (136 dmg x 2 attacks per second)

WANDA+ALARMING LCOCK= 264,18 dps (142.8 dmg x 1.85 attacks per second)

maybe attacks per second values are not correct, but let's be honest, she has more range and her tools and perks help her in combat A LOT, and i mean A LOT.

animation cancel exists too, but i don't want to count it because not so many people use it.

[grm9]

1 minute ago, Sacco said:

WOLF+DARK SWORD= 272 dps (136 dmg x 2 attacks per second)

WANDA+ALARMING LCOCK= 264,18 dps (142.8 dmg x 1.85 attacks per second)

it's 1 attack every 0.467 seconds in case of wolfgang and every 0.534 seconds in case of wanda, so 291 and 267, 378 if wolfgang's alignment perks apply

3 minutes ago, Sacco said:

her tools and perks help her in combat A LOT

backstep clock is only useful against pieces, FW and dfly and what else is there?

4 minutes ago, Sacco said:

she has more range

still not comparable to wolfgang's dps with alignment perks and usually only allows you to do 1-2 more hits per enemy's attack at best and does nothing if you tank

[Sacco]

6 minutes ago, grm9 said:

it's 1 attack every 0.467 seconds in case of wolfgang and every 0.534 seconds in case of wanda, so 291 and 267, 378 if wolfgang's alignment perks apply

backstep clock is only useful against pieces, FW and dfly and what else is there?

still not comparable to wolfgang's dps with alignment perks and usually only allows you to do 1-2 more hits per enemy's attack at best and does nothing if you tank

don't worry, wanda will get her dps boosted with her skill tree.

backstep watch is useful ALWAYS to kite, double range is very very good, if not "OP", it really changes a ton of interactions.

Most of time with that double range you can still land the same attacks as a wolf player just because you are further from a boss.

[Cruvimaster]

1 hour ago, marshyds said:

= Wanda balancing =

Currently, in my opinion, Wanda's health timer perk is more of a buff than a downside...

This is not true.

There are several ways to recover to recover hunger, sanity or life in the game. Wilson, Wolfgang, Willow, Wendy etc. take advantage of them all.

The healing clock is a big disadvantage compared to traditional means that are very broad and strong.

The first point is that no character in the game has their life bar falling passively. This only occurs with sanity for other characters.

The life bar is only a problem in combat, cold or hot. Whether it's cold or hot, healing clocks are a serious problem. And fights are planned.

It is very common for Wanda players to use up to 4 slots for healing clocks (especially in fights like Bee Queen). In standard means only 1 slot can stock food healing items.

Let's look at the means of healing (Wolfgang uses them all and with the highest damage in the game and always full health):

1. Blue mushrooms in the caves (are you going to rush through the ruins with a single healing clock and tell me it's more buff than taking 80 blue mushrooms?)
2. A multitude of easy-to-make foods (and last a long time when stored in a Gift Wrap / Bundling Wrap or even a Polar Bearger Bin).
3. Use of tents exchanging hunger for life and health.
4. Bat bat.
5. Jellybeans.

The healing clock to wait to use again. Healing foods can be consumed one after another.

And these are facts and not opinions.

BUT DOES WANDA HAVE TO HAVE THIS DOWNSIDE?

YES. It's part of the character. Just don't try to make it seem like what the healing clock isn't.

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, Sacco said:

backstep watch is useful ALWAYS to kite

no? only if it ends up putting you closer to the boss than you would've been if you would've walked away

2 minutes ago, Sacco said:

it really changes a ton of interactions

you can kite BQ more easily but you'd still prefer to tank, dfly kiting doesn't even matter that much and iirc it's just 1 more hit, doesn't matter on toad, barely matters on FW since you'd tank to maximize dps

2 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

1. Blue mushrooms in the caves (are you going to rush through the ruins with a single healing clock and tell me it's more buff than taking 80 blue mushrooms?)
2. A multitude of easy-to-make foods (and last a long time when stored in a Gift Wrap / Bundling Wrap or even a Polar Bearger Bin).
3. Use of tents exchanging hunger for life and health.
4. Bat bat.
5. Jellybeans

all of those are less efficient than healing clocks because you need to keep getting them to heal since they aren't infinite, no one uses even 20 blue shrooms for ruins unless they try to kill all bishops

4 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

In standard means only 1 slot can stock food healing items

getting the clocks requires much less time and you only need to do that once tho, you could even have 5 healing clocks from going to ruins if you would've wanted to, since you can get marble from daywalker's pillars and red gems from ruins statues

[Sacco]

3 minutes ago, grm9 said:

no? only if it ends up putting you closer to the boss than you would've been if you would've walked away

you can kite BQ more easily but you'd still prefer to tank, dfly kiting doesn't even matter that much and iirc it's just 1 more hit, doesn't matter on toad, barely matters on FW since you'd tank to maximize dps

it metters on a lot of fights, after playing a lot with wanda i started feeling weird with other characters, i couldn't get the same consistent hits i dealt with wanda with them.

Backestep watch removes the two brain cells needed to kite and gives you more time to attack.

[grm9]

5 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

Healing foods can be consumed one after another

nothing drains hp quickly enough for that to matter unless you tank and even if you tank, you can still get night armor, thule crowns and a few clocks

[arubaro]

People focusing on a small free healing with cool down that can be canceled when what trully kills the difficulty is the game not being prepare for range weapons like her alarming clock

[Cruvimaster]

4 minutes ago, grm9 said:

all of those are less efficient than healing clocks because you need to keep getting them to heal since they aren't infinite, no one uses even 20 blue shrooms for ruins unless they try to kill all bishops

There's no way to argue with you if you just spout random phrases on the forum. How difficult is it to store food in the game? You already eat all the time to control your hunger bar.

And if the healing clock is better than the standard systems, then I would be "very sad" if Klei downgraded the character by removing the clock and introducing ALL traditional healing methods.

This is everything I have to read on this forum...

[grm9]

1 minute ago, Sacco said:

removes the two brain cells needed to kite

you don't get hit if you start walking away too early if you aren't fighting dfly but you get hit if you use the clock too early

2 minutes ago, Sacco said:

gives you more time to attack

only if it doesn't put you even further away than walking away from the attack

3 minutes ago, Sacco said:

it metters on a lot of fights

which? i've mentioned 5 fights in which a wolfgang with a dark sword would have more dps or at least spend less time on preparing for and killing the boss because they can use ham bat without needing to get prestihatitator and shadow manip

3 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

There's no way to argue with you if you just spout random phrases on the forum

how is that related to what i said? you said that those are better, i said that they aren't because you need to spend more time on getting them, inventory management isn't an issue because even if you need 4 clocks to tank, you can store 1-3 of them somewhere and only pick them up whenever you go to a boss that you need them for

5 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

How difficult is it to store food in the game?

how is that related to what i said? you don't eat blue shrooms for hunger

6 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

And if the healing clock is better than the standard systems, then I would be "very sad" if Klei downgraded the character by removing the clock and introducing ALL traditional healing methods

what's the point of this text? yes, that would be a nerf

8 minutes ago, arubaro said:

what trully kills the difficulty is the game not being prepare for range weapons like her alarming clock

is kiting with melee weapons with default range hard for you?

[Cruvimaster]

At no point did I say that I am against the healing clock downside. I just don't try to say on the forum that this is a buff compared to traditional methods.

[Sacco]

2 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you don't get hit if you start walking away too early if you aren't fighting dfly but you get hit if you use the clock too early

only if it doesn't put you even further away than walking away from the attack

which? i've mentioned 5 fights in which a wolfgang with a dark sword would have more dps or at least spend less time on preparing for and killing the boss because they can use ham bat without needing to get prestihatitator and shadow manip

the first point is not a good point imo, if you start walking away early you lose damage.

About the wolf thing, yes i guess?

If you ruins rush/go to the archive or just use the 3 pieces to craft the alarming clock you can reliably get it in the first 10 days, and in those first days no one fights a boss (no, i don't count speedruns in the balancing of the game, because no one does them, except a few)

therotycally wanda just needs her weapon and a few nightmare fuel with the backstep watch to win a fight, while wolf needs an armor an healing (kiting is not as easy as using a backstep watch)

[grm9]

1 minute ago, Sacco said:

therotycally wanda just needs her weapon and a few nightmare fuel with the backstep watch to win a fight, while wolf needs an armor an healing (kiting is not as easy as using a backstep watch)

what boss are you talking about? kiting is usually either easy e.g. dfly and toad or inefficient e.g. BQ and FW, this assumes that the wolfgang player is really bad at the game

3 minutes ago, Sacco said:

the first point is not a good point imo, if you start walking away early you lose damage

if you use clock early that happens and you get hit

3 minutes ago, Sacco said:

(no, i don't count speedruns in the balancing of the game, because no one does them, except a few)

i'm not a speedrunner and i still always do at least AG, daywalker, BQ, dfly and pieces preparation during 1st autumn, AG and daywalker practically always during the 1st 10 days

5 minutes ago, Sacco said:

If you ruins rush/go to the archive or just use the 3 pieces to craft the alarming clock you can reliably get it in the first 10 days

if you hammer 3 pig houses, kill 2 cats, mine 3 rocks and chop 2 trees you get a ham bat during the 1st 2 days at worst, although you'd most likely only prototype it on day 3-4 or so before going to caves if you're getting a beefalo, less damage but much less time spent on getting

[Sacco]

4 minutes ago, grm9 said:

i'm not a speedrunner and i still always do at least AG, daywalker, BQ, dfly and pieces preparation during 1st autumn, AG and daywalker practically always during the 1st 10 days

it's safe to say that you're speedrunning the game.

Ruins rush and all of these bosses on the first autumn?Please consider tha fact you are not the only player which plays dst, and there are a lot more who don't speedrun or kill a ton of bosses like you in the first days.

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, Sacco said:

it's safe to say that you're speedrunning the game

i'm not speedrunning at least because there's no competition because there's no category because everyone do that by different rules

4 minutes ago, Sacco said:

there are a lot more who don't speedrun or kill a ton of bosses like you in the first days

that's mostly irrelevant because people can still start killing bosses earlier as wolfgang in comparison to wanda because of not needing to get prestihatitator and shadow manip

[00petar00]

According to you ageless (healing) watch is a buff so take that away from her and remove natural aging and give her normal HP and healing sources and I'll be happier because only a few people see this is a nerf and normal healing is actually better compared to what Wanda has.

Its easy to say "free" infinite healing as If you don't have natural aging and clocks don't take inventory space and don't heal too much so most newer Wanda players need like 3-5 unless they are already good at the game.

Its funny to see so many people that have never played Wanda want to see her nerfed, backstep watch is not good at all except for the few specific fights that @grm9mentioned.

 

[grm9]

1 minute ago, 00petar00 said:

Its easy to say "free" infinite healing as If you don't have natural aging and clocks don't take inventory space and don't heal too much so most newer Wanda players need like 3-5 unless they are already good at the game

you can bring even 10 clocks for a fight if you want since inventory management isn't an issue if you're going to a boss since you'd likely get back to base after that to dump the loot anyway so there isn't a problem with getting as many clocks as you want from there and putting them back after you get back, getting them is also easy since you get marble from daywalker's pillars and red gems from statues so you could get even 5 clocks after going to ruins

[Cruvimaster]

Wanda had DPS close to Wolfgang's, but it was inferior. She was an alternative to the character. She is no longer.

When comparing the damage between them, do it with the advances that the game brought to Wolfgang and not just based on the dark sword.

Wolfgang is dealing 143 damage, with full health and no delay in the attack animation. That's his real DPS and we're not even talking about the extra damage from the alignment.

It's worth remembering that it's not even necessary to defeat the Celestial Champion to access the items that Wolfgang is using.

In fact, if Wanda has 95% armor (which only stops giving sanity punishment at age 65), Wolfgang also has marble armor (95%) with full health (and he doesn't even need it to have any safe combat, but is available to him).

So the DPS is

Wanda = 142.8 x 0.534.

Wolfgang = 143 x 0.467.