Add Mosquito nests: How to Salvage Wurt's current skills.

[Masked Koopa]

I've been thinking about the Wurt skill tree a lot over the past 8 hours trying to think about why exactly the new skills rub me the wrong way even when I ignore them being useless. My last topic was just describing how they were useless, but now I want to give a shake at exploring how to make these skills work and why they represent a fundamental problem in approach.

Wurt isn't a character who uses gadgets

• Look at all the other characters who get items in their trees, and a common theme arises:
  • Wolfgang gets new dumbells
  • Wigfrid gets new weapons and armour
  • Wormwood gets a bramble husk upgrade and a new trick to deal with enemies
  • Woodie gets two gear items - a cane and a helmet

These characters already have items with a similar theme. Wolfgang already has dumbells. Wigfrid already has a weapon and armour. Wormwood already has tricks and traps to defend himself. Woodie is the closest to being abnormal, but he still has access to lucy and there's a good argument for the idols serving as pseudo tools given they perform a similar task.

Wanna know what items Wurt has at base? One. A single item. And its one purpose is to allow other players to engage with the actual stuff she makes - structures.

Yet her skill tree has FOUR wacky swamp themed gadgets that don't allign with what she does right now AT ALL. I've already complained in the past that I feel like Klei has flattened Wurt's personality into being basically Wormwood with her quotes on new content, but now it feels like they're doing the same thing to her skill tree as well. Instead of funny plant themed items she gets funny swamp themed ones. They even gave her a compost wrap bootleg.

 

Wurt mains don't want gadgets

And before anyone complains: I do not mean literally every Wurt main ever. But I seriously have to question how we ended up with funny swamp gadgets after weeks of the most common requests being Hamlet but Merm. Obviously that's a pretty big ask, and I imagine there is some civilisation-related stuff in the tree that is yet to come. But Klei were showing incomplete telebrella pad for Winona, which makes me worried that Wurt's other skills are mostly stat modifiers which would be hard to show off unlike items. I'll make it clear: Wurt mains want new structures. It's basically the entire appeal of the character.

I'm not picking Wurt because I want to play as a feral creature that lives in the swamp making weird makeshift grenades and syringes. I want to build Merm town. The only structure focused character other than Wurt is Winona. Please, PLEASE don't turn her into Wanda or Wormwood or WX or Wigfrid or Walter or one of zillions of characters who use their array of makeshift doodads to overcome the constant. Please just stick to what Wurt actually does.

How to salvage the current stuff

Now I'm gonna be upfront: Klei, you're not getting off easy if you wanna make these work. This isn't a case of the items being under-statted, the core idea behind these items is already misguided. That having been said, here's my shot at retaining the spirit of the skills while better adhering to the civilisation theme.

• Mosquito nests:
  • Basically, imagine a bee box but for mosquitos.
  • You craft it with something like torches or campfire materials + boards + mosquitos.
  • The mosquitos are pacified by the smoke kind of like bees.
  • You can harvest the nest for live mosquitos.

This would let her harvest mosquitos from wherever she wants, which is similar to how she can create Mermhouses and a source of Reeds and Tentacle spots (Merm King) wherever she wants. It also fits into her character being about applying the survivor's science to her own environment. It's domestication instead of weaponisation.

• Mosquito Pacifier, Bomb and Heal:
  • Now I am of the opinion that the mosquito bomb and the heal should be removed.
  • If they were kept, they'd at the very least now serve as the fruits of her domestication effort.
  • The mosquito pacifier should be a structure. Or the Mosquito Nest could pacify wild Mosquitos like Webber's decorated dens. We don't need persistent protection against mosquitos, this literally feels like yet another Wormwood-ism. Wurt doesn't need Bee Kind or Butterfly friend.

I do not think that the bomb has any purpose within the game. Wurt doesn't need a weapon, and if she has to have one, the LAST thing she needs is a weapon that spawns minions. She already has two exclusive minions she doesn't need "distraction enemies".

The heal just seems like a bootleg of healing glop, which is already an unimpressive item. Merm HP just isn't a problem - the weakest merm has more HP than the strongest spider, and Merms also have regen to boot. That having been said I can accept it being a healing salve counterpart that you craft with the results of your mosquito boxes, but the minion healing aspect is just so redundant.

• Fertiliser:
  • I just wanna point out that this item actively runs counter to Wurt's personality - all of her character quotes make it abundantly clear that Wurt hates farming for being slow and boring.
  • If anything she's gonna delegate farming to her Merms.
  • It's possible this is already the plan, but just let Merms farm using this item or make it a crafting requirement for "Farmermers" or whatever.

[BalkanCockroach]

9 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

Farmermers

Farmerms

[Jakepeng99]

3 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

I've been thinking about the Wurt skill tree a lot over the past 8 hours trying to think about why exactly the new skills rub me the wrong way even when I ignore them being useless. My last topic was just describing how they were useless, but now I want to give a shake at exploring how to make these skills work and why they represent a fundamental problem in approach.

Wurt isn't a character who uses gadgets

• Look at all the other characters who get items in their trees, and a common theme arises:
  • Wolfgang gets new dumbells
  • Wigfrid gets new weapons and armour
  • Wormwood gets a bramble husk upgrade and a new trick to deal with enemies
  • Woodie gets two gear items - a cane and a helmet

These characters already have items with a similar theme. Wolfgang already has dumbells. Wigfrid already has a weapon and armour. Wormwood already has tricks and traps to defend himself. Woodie is the closest to being abnormal, but he still has access to lucy and there's a good argument for the idols serving as pseudo tools given they perform a similar task.

Wanna know what items Wurt has at base? One. A single item. And its one purpose is to allow other players to engage with the actual stuff she makes - structures.

Yet her skill tree has FOUR wacky swamp themed gadgets that don't allign with what she does right now AT ALL. I've already complained in the past that I feel like Klei has flattened Wurt's personality into being basically Wormwood with her quotes on new content, but now it feels like they're doing the same thing to her skill tree as well. Instead of funny plant themed items she gets funny swamp themed ones. They even gave her a compost wrap bootleg.

 

Wurt mains don't want gadgets

And before anyone complains: I do not mean literally every Wurt main ever. But I seriously have to question how we ended up with funny swamp gadgets after weeks of the most common requests being Hamlet but Merm. Obviously that's a pretty big ask, and I imagine there is some civilisation-related stuff in the tree that is yet to come. But Klei were showing incomplete telebrella pad for Winona, which makes me worried that Wurt's other skills are mostly stat modifiers which would be hard to show off unlike items. I'll make it clear: Wurt mains want new structures. It's basically the entire appeal of the character.

I'm not picking Wurt because I want to play as a feral creature that lives in the swamp making weird makeshift grenades and syringes. I want to build Merm town. The only structure focused character other than Wurt is Winona. Please, PLEASE don't turn her into Wanda or Wormwood or WX or Wigfrid or Walter or one of zillions of characters who use their array of makeshift doodads to overcome the constant. Please just stick to what Wurt actually does.

How to salvage the current stuff

Now I'm gonna be upfront: Klei, you're not getting off easy if you wanna make these work. This isn't a case of the items being under-statted, the core idea behind these items is already misguided. That having been said, here's my shot at retaining the spirit of the skills while better adhering to the civilisation theme.

• Mosquito nests:
  • Basically, imagine a bee box but for mosquitos.
  • You craft it with something like torches or campfire materials + boards + mosquitos.
  • The mosquitos are pacified by the smoke kind of like bees.
  • You can harvest the nest for live mosquitos.

This would let her harvest mosquitos from wherever she wants, which is similar to how she can create Mermhouses and a source of Reeds and Tentacle spots (Merm King) wherever she wants. It also fits into her character being about applying the survivor's science to her own environment. It's domestication instead of weaponisation.

• Mosquito Pacifier, Bomb and Heal:
  • Now I am of the opinion that the mosquito bomb and the heal should be removed.
  • If they were kept, they'd at the very least now serve as the fruits of her domestication effort.
  • The mosquito pacifier should be a structure. Or the Mosquito Nest could pacify wild Mosquitos like Webber's decorated dens. We don't need persistent protection against mosquitos, this literally feels like yet another Wormwood-ism. Wurt doesn't need Bee Kind or Butterfly friend.

I do not think that the bomb has any purpose within the game. Wurt doesn't need a weapon, and if she has to have one, the LAST thing she needs is a weapon that spawns minions. She already has two exclusive minions she doesn't need "distraction enemies".

The heal just seems like a bootleg of healing glop, which is already an unimpressive item. Merm HP just isn't a problem - the weakest merm has more HP than the strongest spider, and Merms also have regen to boot. That having been said I can accept it being a healing salve counterpart that you craft with the results of your mosquito boxes, but the minion healing aspect is just so redundant.

• Fertiliser:
  • I just wanna point out that this item actively runs counter to Wurt's personality - all of her character quotes make it abundantly clear that Wurt hates farming for being slow and boring.
  • If anything she's gonna delegate farming to her Merms.
  • It's possible this is already the plan, but just let Merms farm using this item or make it a crafting requirement for "Farmermers" or whatever.

I like your efforts and link into the merm city but it would be weird for them to lean into mosquito farming. I dont think this fixes anything.

You are right about everything else and all the reasons of why it should be changed, and the problem with this branch, like the fertaliser one.

 

Probably the best to let her keep the mosquito neutraliserr, and make the mosquito crafts available to everyone else. They are ok on their own, and synergise better with other characters like Walter. This gives them room to add more skills if needed. I neved saw them mention fish related skills.

 

3 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

The mosquito pacifier should be a structure.

Maybe make the item work on the ground like a lantern?

[flamboyant wolf]

53 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

Wurt mains don't want gadgets

Wurt mains want new structures.

Hi, I'm Wurt mains, this is 100% correct and factual 

[marshyds]

Very good summarization of the problems and solutions.

I like the idea of making mosquito beeboxes. Maybe they would purely be focused on health, since healing is a weak point for wurt since stuff like dfruit is farms only (Nobody SANE likes farming.)

The merm stimpak could instead be a nurse merm feller, which i've already said before. The nurse could do single heals instead of AOE so that they don't outclass webber.

The mosquito bomb should instead be thrown by ranged combat merms, imagine them sacrificing their own health to throw mosquito grenades or something silly like that.

[StankyTheKlown]

Agreed with most everything you’ve said here. More structures, a rallying town horn to mass recruit people would be great too. War horn!

[Maxposting]

i don't main wurt and i still long for a silly city of different merm professions

[Jakepeng99]

58 minutes ago, marshyds said:

The merm stimpak could instead be a nurse merm feller, which i've already said before. The nurse could do single heals instead of AOE so that they don't outclass webber.

I dont think we need healer merms since unlike Webber spiders, merms respawn and are super bulky.

 

Also i would prefer more utility merms to try seperate from webber more.

[flamboyant wolf]

19 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

I dont think we need healer merms since unlike Webber spiders, merms respawn and are super bulky.

 

Also i would prefer more utility merms to try seperate from webber more.

Exactly my thoughts. 

[xhyom]

I don't even understand why would you want to pacify mosquitoes, merms farm them passively and we can get a bunch of healing items idle, which is pretty good for a character that has no access to pierogui. And the mosquitoes sounds are annoying enough to get the as far as possible from their pound anyways... If taming mosquitoes is what the "merm civilazation, swamp mastety" branch is I don't even want a skill tree, like ****, at least make it about frogs I don't know, I can deal with perks that are basically just cosmetics and toys like Wolfgang whistle, but freaking mosquitoes?

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

all of her character quotes make it abundantly clear that Wurt hates farming for being slow and boring.

Which is why she is my spirit amphibian. Honestly she doesn't really benefit from farming either and I really hope they drop this instead of trying to add new reasons for her to farm.

Overall I agree with this post but I would like mosquito bombs to stay after being properly buffed to actually do something useful if only for the novelty of throwing mosquito bombs at things that being said it definitely doesn't need to stay as a Wurt exclusive craft.

[Volskygge]

I also think leaning more on the hamlet side of merm is the way to go, even in her perks in game tell us she "Has big plans for mermkind" and in the chapter talks about wanting to bring her people back to their former glory

[Jakepeng99]

Just now, Godwyn said:

I also think leaning more on the hamlet side of merm is the way to go, even in her perks in game it talks about "Has big plans for mermkind" and in the chapter talks about wanting to bringing her people back to their former glory

Big plans expectarion:

Big Plans reality:

[Creatorofswamps]

7 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

• Mosquito nests:
  • Basically, imagine a bee box but for mosquitos.
  • You craft it with something like torches or campfire materials + boards + mosquitos.
  • The mosquitos are pacified by the smoke kind of like bees.
  • You can harvest the nest for live mosquitos.

This would let her harvest mosquitos from wherever she wants, which is similar to how she can create Mermhouses and a source of Reeds and Tentacle spots (Merm King) wherever she wants. It also fits into her character being about applying the survivor's science to her own environment. It's domestication instead of weaponisation.

I was thinking about your words, about the mosquito branch of skills and the civilization of mermaids. I came up with the idea that if mermaids did domesticate camors, as humans domesticated bees? They have lived side by side with them all their lives, why not? I suggest that it should be placed directly on the pond (instead of honey, live mosquitoes could be collected from it), this would very well solve the problem of the high cost of catching mosquitoes, and also explain why mermaids and mosquitoes are related. For mermaids, these are "farm animals". + this is another building of the mermaid civilization.I have created an approximate concept of a mosquito hive:

+ I don't think we need smoke and stuff, just a hive from which you can collect 3-6 mosquitoes every day.

[Creatorofswamps]

Here's what a phased replenishment of mosquitoes would look like:

[Creatorofswamps]

18 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

like your efforts and link into the merm city but it would be weird for them to lean into mosquito farming. I dont think this fixes anything.

In fact, I like that merms can grow Maskits in hives for their own purposes (weapons, treatment, fertilizer), this is an analog of how pigs grow flowers, carrots or berries. Besides, only the most civilized creatures do make auto farms, don't they

[Jakepeng99]

41 minutes ago, Creatorofswamps said:

In fact, I like that merms can grow Maskits in hives for their own purposes (weapons, treatment, fertilizer), this is an analog of how pigs grow flowers, carrots or berries. Besides, only the most civilized creatures do make auto farms, don't they

Maybe these mosquito hives are already a structure merms use in the swamp? It might be interesting.

We could learn to craft them by getting the blueprint. Merms could have at least something functional in their swamp before Wurt. It would add more in game progression for Wurt.

 

Also i really like the art.

[Uedo]

21 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

I've been thinking about the Wurt skill tree a lot over the past 8 hours trying to think about why exactly the new skills rub me the wrong way even when I ignore them being useless. My last topic was just describing how they were useless, but now I want to give a shake at exploring how to make these skills work and why they represent a fundamental problem in approach.

Wurt isn't a character who uses gadgets

• Look at all the other characters who get items in their trees, and a common theme arises:
  • Wolfgang gets new dumbells
  • Wigfrid gets new weapons and armour
  • Wormwood gets a bramble husk upgrade and a new trick to deal with enemies
  • Woodie gets two gear items - a cane and a helmet

These characters already have items with a similar theme. Wolfgang already has dumbells. Wigfrid already has a weapon and armour. Wormwood already has tricks and traps to defend himself. Woodie is the closest to being abnormal, but he still has access to lucy and there's a good argument for the idols serving as pseudo tools given they perform a similar task.

Wanna know what items Wurt has at base? One. A single item. And its one purpose is to allow other players to engage with the actual stuff she makes - structures.

Yet her skill tree has FOUR wacky swamp themed gadgets that don't allign with what she does right now AT ALL. I've already complained in the past that I feel like Klei has flattened Wurt's personality into being basically Wormwood with her quotes on new content, but now it feels like they're doing the same thing to her skill tree as well. Instead of funny plant themed items she gets funny swamp themed ones. They even gave her a compost wrap bootleg.

 

Wurt mains don't want gadgets

And before anyone complains: I do not mean literally every Wurt main ever. But I seriously have to question how we ended up with funny swamp gadgets after weeks of the most common requests being Hamlet but Merm. Obviously that's a pretty big ask, and I imagine there is some civilisation-related stuff in the tree that is yet to come. But Klei were showing incomplete telebrella pad for Winona, which makes me worried that Wurt's other skills are mostly stat modifiers which would be hard to show off unlike items. I'll make it clear: Wurt mains want new structures. It's basically the entire appeal of the character.

I'm not picking Wurt because I want to play as a feral creature that lives in the swamp making weird makeshift grenades and syringes. I want to build Merm town. The only structure focused character other than Wurt is Winona. Please, PLEASE don't turn her into Wanda or Wormwood or WX or Wigfrid or Walter or one of zillions of characters who use their array of makeshift doodads to overcome the constant. Please just stick to what Wurt actually does.

How to salvage the current stuff

Now I'm gonna be upfront: Klei, you're not getting off easy if you wanna make these work. This isn't a case of the items being under-statted, the core idea behind these items is already misguided. That having been said, here's my shot at retaining the spirit of the skills while better adhering to the civilisation theme.

• Mosquito nests:
  • Basically, imagine a bee box but for mosquitos.
  • You craft it with something like torches or campfire materials + boards + mosquitos.
  • The mosquitos are pacified by the smoke kind of like bees.
  • You can harvest the nest for live mosquitos.

This would let her harvest mosquitos from wherever she wants, which is similar to how she can create Mermhouses and a source of Reeds and Tentacle spots (Merm King) wherever she wants. It also fits into her character being about applying the survivor's science to her own environment. It's domestication instead of weaponisation.

• Mosquito Pacifier, Bomb and Heal:
  • Now I am of the opinion that the mosquito bomb and the heal should be removed.
  • If they were kept, they'd at the very least now serve as the fruits of her domestication effort.
  • The mosquito pacifier should be a structure. Or the Mosquito Nest could pacify wild Mosquitos like Webber's decorated dens. We don't need persistent protection against mosquitos, this literally feels like yet another Wormwood-ism. Wurt doesn't need Bee Kind or Butterfly friend.

I do not think that the bomb has any purpose within the game. Wurt doesn't need a weapon, and if she has to have one, the LAST thing she needs is a weapon that spawns minions. She already has two exclusive minions she doesn't need "distraction enemies".

The heal just seems like a bootleg of healing glop, which is already an unimpressive item. Merm HP just isn't a problem - the weakest merm has more HP than the strongest spider, and Merms also have regen to boot. That having been said I can accept it being a healing salve counterpart that you craft with the results of your mosquito boxes, but the minion healing aspect is just so redundant.

• Fertiliser:
  • I just wanna point out that this item actively runs counter to Wurt's personality - all of her character quotes make it abundantly clear that Wurt hates farming for being slow and boring.
  • If anything she's gonna delegate farming to her Merms.
  • It's possible this is already the plan, but just let Merms farm using this item or make it a crafting requirement for "Farmermers" or whatever.

I think this is a really good design for wurts skills. I think it really hits on Wurt's whole 'theme'.

I have a horrible feeling it's going to be like previous suggestions though, where because Klei have already spent resources to design elements they're going to be unwilling/unable to make too many changes to what they have.

I'd have much prefered this though - I guess the dreams of a future Wurt we wanted probably arn't going to come (Well until we do character refresh 4 :P)

[Creatorofswamps]

On 5/17/2024 at 7:12 PM, BalkanCockroach said:

Farmerms

Many people want to see farmers' merms, fishers and stump diggers

[Masked Koopa]

16 hours ago, Uedo said:

I have a horrible feeling it's going to be like previous suggestions though, where because Klei have already spent resources to design elements they're going to be unwilling/unable to make too many changes to what they have.

Well, one advantage we have this time around is that the beta hasn't even started yet. The forums are also uncharacteristically in agreement both on the matter of the skills being useless and in the desired direction of Wurt's skills. I'm pretty hopeful Klei has enough incentive to course correct.

[Creatorofswamps]

On 5/18/2024 at 2:10 AM, Creatorofswamps said:

 

I think it will be a fair craft

[flamboyant wolf]

2 minutes ago, Creatorofswamps said:

I think it will be a fair craft

Do spiky bushes regrow? If not maybe they should. 

[Creatorofswamps]

3 hours ago, skile said:

Do spiky bushes regrow? If not maybe they should

They don't grow. But yes, this is a great opportunity to make it grow

[arubaro]

I prefer strong characters having flavour fun perks like the mosquitoe bomb than filling the tree with useless or uninspired perks like wolfgangs', gamebreaking ones like willow's or removing downsides like woodie's 

[grm9]

5 minutes ago, arubaro said:

gamebreaking ones like willow's

why?