The Hardest DST Challenge Ever Completed

[Critviscosity]

13 minutes ago, Third Porkus said:

The issue I brought up with inventory slots is that you only have two open slots which isnt enough for both sanity food and another weapon

The ground can hold a theoretical infinite amount of items that you drop on it

16 minutes ago, Third Porkus said:

Thermal stone being a precaution doesn't really make sense for a fuel fight.

the stone isn't for the fight itself obviously, it's for in case I get wet, Wes is more susceptible to the elements

19 minutes ago, Third Porkus said:

I fail to see how mining hats are slower than a torch when you have a cane which gives you a direct speed boost (also they are very easy to refuel?) and you have no other useful head slot item.

Torches are ridiculously easy to craft with all the grass and twigs around the world, even ignoring the dreaded unbalanced tumbleweed giving you infinite amounts of the stuff on top of ruins gems of all things

22 minutes ago, Third Porkus said:

it being in the middle can get in the way of clicking the woven shadows.

I can aim good and have patience, I don't just randomly click all over to kill the shadows

24 minutes ago, Third Porkus said:

Also if people have the video you could just directly refer us to them

I'm the only Magicane that has a Klei forum account, and besides they wouldn't be that interested in talking to you

26 minutes ago, Third Porkus said:

This really seems like you're a troll though because you don't really seem to understand how the fight is done when you say you "damaged him inside the circle further down" since a fight where you avoid all cages is too tight to be doing damage to him in that part of the middle unless you do it in some backwards way.

Your thinking too small I'm further down that that, I guess my forwards is your backwards

[Porkus]

14 minutes ago, Critviscosity said:

Torches are ridiculously easy to craft with all the grass and twigs around the world, even ignoring the dreaded unbalanced tumbleweed giving you infinite amounts of the stuff on top of ruins gems of all things

lol

[00petar00]

20 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

An interesting thing to highlight from this challenge is that when I began routing it, the total time spent fighting bosses in the run was estimated to be around 2 hours, but through tons of optimizations it's barely over an hour in the final result, and this is with 10 major bosses while banning pretty much anything that could be remotely considered an exploit and without having access to damage multipliers. I want to point this out since I've seen a lot of people here on the forums misjudge many of the old bosses as being "unfair" or requiring too many "highly specific items" to beat without cheese as a single player, when this is absolutely not the case. Not only do these bosses give plenty of opportunities to capitalize on damage when you take the time to learn them, but they are just well designed in general in my opinion and give the player a ton of freedom in how they approach them.

This is actually proving the point that bosses need to be nerfed, you are one of the best DST speedrunners and you are trying to push here as If bosses really aren't unfair, especially ones like DF or BQ that summon minions. I never argued that a player isn't able to kill all bosses even without taking damage but that this can't be imposed on a normal player with 100-200 hours played, at the same time you can't expect players to put in thousands of hours and focus on practicing only bosses and speedruns.

I have thousands of hours played and I never speedrun and while I have gotten decent at fighting bosses, I am nowhere as good as you and I don't want to focus on getting that good at boss fights. I just want to be good enough to be able to kill bosses when I want without much prep, I don't believe I can be as good even If I tried but most players won't have the time or find it as enjoyable as you to focus on this part of the game so much.

Bosses are quite unfair because they are made for multiplayer but speedrunners and some veteran players have adapted to this difficulty and see it as normal, so it shouldn't be changed because it would be boring for a smaller part of the community? I include myself in this group, I only dislike a few bosses but most of them are very fun and If they were nerfed I wouldn't find them as fun but thinking about a bigger picture most players don't have experience or should have to go through what we did to learn these boss fights and to start enjoying them.

 

[Gashzer]

56 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

This is actually proving the point that bosses need to be nerfed, you are one of the best DST speedrunners and you are trying to push here as If bosses really aren't unfair, especially ones like DF or BQ that summon minions. I never argued that a player isn't able to kill all bosses even without taking damage but that this can't be imposed on a normal player with 100-200 hours played, at the same time you can't expect players to put in thousands of hours and focus on practicing only bosses and speedruns.

I have thousands of hours played and I never speedrun and while I have gotten decent at fighting bosses, I am nowhere as good as you and I don't want to focus on getting that good at boss fights. I just want to be good enough to be able to kill bosses when I want without much prep, I don't believe I can be as good even If I tried but most players won't have the time or find it as enjoyable as you to focus on this part of the game so much.

Bosses are quite unfair because they are made for multiplayer but speedrunners and some veteran players have adapted to this difficulty and see it as normal, so it shouldn't be changed because it would be boring for a smaller part of the community? I include myself in this group, I only dislike a few bosses but most of them are very fun and If they were nerfed I wouldn't find them as fun but thinking about a bigger picture most players don't have experience or should have to go through what we did to learn these boss fights and to start enjoying them.

 

100% agree. 

Spending 10000+ hours on DST and developing an insane level of muscle memory for kiting invalidates Guille's opinion on the topic of boss balance.

Its unrealistic to expect the average player to get to this level of "git gud"ness unless klei wants to make DST deliberately hard like dark souls.

Bosses that klei need to revisit:

• Ancient fuelweaver needs nerfed.
• Dfly needs reworked.
• Crab king needs reworked or cannon needs to have a special combat interaction with him.
• Toadstool needs reworked. (Maybe make him get his leg stuck in the ponds if hes moving at max speed from spore trees, giving you time to cut trees.)

Edit: Bee queen also needs reworked (make her a "follower vs follower" boss fight were if you have followers like pigs her grumbles and your pigs only target each other allowing you to fight bee queen 1v1)

[Catuna_]

23 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

This is actually proving the point that bosses need to be nerfed, you are one of the best DST speedrunners and you are trying to push here as If bosses really aren't unfair, especially ones like DF or BQ that summon minions. I never argued that a player isn't able to kill all bosses even without taking damage but that this can't be imposed on a normal player with 100-200 hours played, at the same time you can't expect players to put in thousands of hours and focus on practicing only bosses and speedruns.

I have thousands of hours played and I never speedrun and while I have gotten decent at fighting bosses, I am nowhere as good as you and I don't want to focus on getting that good at boss fights. I just want to be good enough to be able to kill bosses when I want without much prep, I don't believe I can be as good even If I tried but most players won't have the time or find it as enjoyable as you to focus on this part of the game so much.

Bosses are quite unfair because they are made for multiplayer but speedrunners and some veteran players have adapted to this difficulty and see it as normal, so it shouldn't be changed because it would be boring for a smaller part of the community? I include myself in this group, I only dislike a few bosses but most of them are very fun and If they were nerfed I wouldn't find them as fun but thinking about a bigger picture most players don't have experience or should have to go through what we did to learn these boss fights and to start enjoying them.

I'm a solo player myself and I really don't understand this narrative that bosses are unfair, in what degree? Just because they were designed for multiplayer does not mean that they are unfair or impossible solo and that has been proven with every boss already with several strategies ranging from cheap to expensive depending on how much preparation you want to do. It's one of my favorite things about this game and its accessibility that you can opt to invest different amounts of effort and time to achieve the same result with strategies that vary between skill level. Bosses taking preparation and using up resources is normal, I don't understand why people think it isn't? That's just how a game like this works. The recent bosses we've been getting have been an absolute bore for me due to their linearity, they allow no such creativity and punish you for doing so because they're only designed to be beaten one way and that's just lame in my opinion. I'd hate for bosses to get nerfed just because people refuse to acknowledge how you can beat them, and I'd hate it even more if Klei continued this "oopsie i guess its time for my scheduled nap" trend with bosses... It was decently fun with Nightmare werepig, it made sense for the mutated bosses because you want to farm spark arcs... Then we got frostjaw and scrappy.
If you want to beat bosses with little preparation then you should practice to be able to beat bosses with little preparation, I don't see why the game should be dumbed down for you to be able to do that. If you don't want to put in that effort, then you can use resources that otherwise will be (figuratively) rotting on the ground or in your chests.

[Faintly Macabre]

5 hours ago, Uedo said:

Omg the absolute salt of this post haha. [...] jesus, it's not hard to be happy for someone. Very bitter guys, stop it

Mike gonna Mike, but in his defense, Guille's the one who made this about something more than just his achievement.

19 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

I want to point this out since I've seen a lot of people here on the forums misjudge many of the old bosses as being "unfair" or requiring too many "highly specific items" to beat without cheese as a single player, when this is absolutely not the case.

When I initially read this, my immediate inclination was just to reply "bro, you're a ****ing speedrunner." Then I thought no, I should really try to engage with this and point out all the problems and blind spots of this logic and what other players want/think. But...

bro, you're a ****ing speedrunner. It feels ridiculous to need to point out to you that even a few levels below this level of execution is just not something everyone can or even just wants to achieve. Obviously you're not saying that everybody should be able to do this, but if you're not, then this just doesn't really prove anything, at least not anything people didn't already know. Speedrunner good at game. Speedrunner love game.

Part of the problem is that everybody who objects to the ridiculous damage sponges and 10-minute long fights when the game is played solo is thrown into the same bucket: "game too hard". But we're actually not all claiming to be incapable of completing or even especially challenged by these encounters.

You obviously really enjoy this game and I think especially its combat, and that's totally cool. But I watch your video and see you spending nearly 9 minutes to kill Dragonfly, the majority of which is spent swinging a half a dozen times, stepping away, rinse and repeat, and it lowkey makes me want to die. Combat in this game is... fine. It has a little more depth than it's sometimes given credit for, but not a lot. And I find it pretty boring. At least, not interesting enough to enjoy repeatedly engaging in it for ten minutes or more at a time. But in a game with so many activities, most of the major steps of progression are locked behind doing these lengthy dances. That's somewhat to be expected, but for god's sake, do they have to be such a chore?

[Gashzer]

35 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

I'm a solo player myself and I really don't understand this narrative that bosses are unfair, in what degree? 

Not unfair just not fun. 

The problem with old bosses there used to be/still is, readily available exploits to make the fights much easier. The average person learned to exploit bosses instead of getting better at kiting like ole Guille here, for example the outrage over lureplant bug fix for ancient fuelweaver. 

The new bosses have no exploits forcing you to get better at combat or to prep more armour and healing instead if you are bad at kiting them, they dont reward learning and using game exploits. New bosses reward you for learning their weaknesses and kiting pattern.

Love all the new bosses, good job klei.

[00petar00]

10 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

100% agree. 

Spending 10000+ hours on DST and developing an insane level of muscle memory for kiting invalidates Guille's opinion on the topic of boss balance.

Its unrealistic to expect the average player to get to this level of "git gud"ness unless klei wants to make DST deliberately hard like dark souls.

Bosses that klei need ro revisit:

• Ancient fuelweaver needs nerfed.
• Dfly needs reworked.
• Crab king needs reworked or cannon needs to have a special combat interaction with him.
• Toadstool needs reworked. (Maybe make him get his leg stuck in the ponds if hes moving at max speed from spore trees, giving you time to cut trees.)

I'd prefer BQ instead of FW but maybe both, FW is fun but I don't think players should need to juggle items that much for a single fight.

The only problem with FW is healing but I see this as a problem for all bosses with healing mechanic since we can't see boss HP and players can't figure out what is going on and when boss is healing unless they learn it outside of the game and even for someone who learns it, healing is too punishing for someone who makes a small mistake in a boss fight.

At least FW woven shadows are much more fair compared to other minion summons and If they didn't heal but did anything else I wouldn't see it as a problem in any way.

12 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

I'm a solo player myself and I really don't understand this narrative that bosses are unfair, in what degree? Just because they were designed for multiplayer does not mean that they are unfair or impossible solo and that has been proven with every boss already with several strategies ranging from cheap to expensive depending on how much preparation you want to do. It's one of my favorite things about this game and its accessibility that you can opt to invest different amounts of effort and time to achieve the same result with strategies that vary between skill level. Bosses taking preparation and using up resources is normal, I don't understand why people think it isn't? That's just how a game like this works. The recent bosses we've been getting have been an absolute bore for me due to their linearity, they allow no such creativity and punish you for doing so because they're only designed to be beaten one way and that's just lame in my opinion. I'd hate for bosses to get nerfed just because people refuse to acknowledge how you can beat them, and I'd hate it even more if Klei continued this "oopsie i guess its time for my scheduled nap" trend with bosses... It was decently fun with Nightmare werepig, it made sense for the mutated bosses because you want to farm spark arcs... Then we got frostjaw and scrappy.
If you want to beat bosses with little preparation then you should practice to be able to beat bosses with little preparation, I don't see why the game should be dumbed down for you to be able to do that. If you don't want to put in that effort, then you can use resources that otherwise will be (figuratively) rotting on the ground or in your chests.

Bosses being designed for multiplayer makes them unfair for solo players. No one has said that it is impossible and we have evidence from Guille not taking a hit and the reply you quoted I said that it can't be expected of a regular player to do anything like this or for you to expect of them to get this good.

You don't need any strategy beyond using a simple weapon in a multiplayer, you just melt the boss and often won't even need any healing.

The thing is that you have accepted it as normal for bosses to be as they are but look at DS boss health and compare to DST and how much you needed to prepare in DS (with armor stacking) and now DST.

I don't think most of us are saying that you can't beat them but that it is unreasonable of you to expect an average player to do so. I don't even think boss HP needs to be nerfed but at least I want boss HP to scale up based on players and for the current HP to be default for single player with removal (replacement) of minion summon mechanics.

Which new boss has minion summons like DF or BQ? It is obvious that klei realized that these mechanics are very bad for solo play.

This sounds very elitist, expecting of players to learn how to deal and use unconventional mechanics to deal with bosses just because they are designed for multiplayer with massive amounts of health. It shouldn't be expected of a player to spend 20-30 minutes preparing to only fight boss for a few minutes.

 

[Gashzer]

1 minute ago, 00petar00 said:

I'd prefer BQ instead of FW but maybe both, FW is fun but I don't think players should need to juggle items that much for a single fight.

I feel BQ should be a "follower" boss fight. Yes she needs reworked but she should be a boss that requires you to use pigs/bunnymen/follower in some way.

Maybe make it so grumbles and your followers only target each other. Meaning you and bee queen can go 1v1.

[Guille6785]

23 minutes ago, Faintly Macabre said:

You obviously really enjoy this game and I think especially its combat, and that's totally cool. But I watch your video and see you spending nearly 9 minutes to kill Dragonfly, the majority of which is spent swinging a half a dozen times, stepping away, rinse and repeat, and it lowkey makes me want to die. Combat in this game is... fine. It has a little more depth than it's sometimes given credit for, but not a lot. And I find it pretty boring. At least, not interesting enough to enjoy repeatedly engaging in it for ten minutes or more at a time. But in a game with so many activities, most of the major steps of progression are locked behind doing these lengthy dances. That's somewhat to be expected, but for god's sake, do they have to be such a chore?

I think the bosses have a fine amount of health for a single player and this has nothing to do with me being a speedrunner, this was my opinion when I first learned to kill dragonfly and it's still my opinion after killing her a billion times; I really don't think health is a problem, for example I personally find nightmare werepig to far overstay its welcome despite only having 10k hp while fights like fuelweaver actually feel shorter because they are genuinely high stakes and force me to play well to earn my openings for damage

[Faintly Macabre]

P.S.: Legitimately great run. Regardless of some quibbles about the rules and the fact that apparently somebody we don't know has totally done a harder run that we'll never see, still an impressive display of execution.

Also this is maybe not new to many or most, but as somebody who hasn't really kept up with the latest strats for older bosses and has long opted to just marble suit tank and spank Dfly, I only found out yesterday about killing her last lavae to guarantee an enrage, and sleeping her before she summons the last one so you can clean the rest up easier is a trick I'll definitely be using.

[Arcwell]

59 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

The new bosses have no exploits

[Gashzer]

Just now, Arcwell said:

Unless they do? 

Regardless unlike older bosses they arnt damage sponges so refighting them properly for drops isnt much of an issue.

 

[Catuna_]

56 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Bosses being designed for multiplayer makes them unfair for solo players. No one has said that it is impossible and we have evidence from Guille not taking a hit and the reply you quoted I said that it can't be expected of a regular player to do anything like this or for you to expect of them to get this good.

You don't need any strategy beyond using a simple weapon in a multiplayer, you just melt the boss and often won't even need any healing.

The thing is that you have accepted it as normal for bosses to be as they are but look at DS boss health and compare to DST and how much you needed to prepare in DS (with armor stacking) and now DST.

I don't think most of us are saying that you can't beat them but that it is unreasonable of you to expect an average player to do so. I don't even think boss HP needs to be nerfed but at least I want boss HP to scale up based on players and for the current HP to be default for single player with removal (replacement) of minion summon mechanics.

Which new boss has minion summons like DF or BQ? It is obvious that klei realized that these mechanics are very bad for solo play.

This sounds very elitist, expecting of players to learn how to deal and use unconventional mechanics to deal with bosses just because they are designed for multiplayer with massive amounts of health. It shouldn't be expected of a player to spend 20-30 minutes preparing to only fight boss for a few minutes.

Bosses being impossible for solo is what would make them unfair for solo, just because it's easier in multiplayer doesn't really mean that it's unfair for solo. There are cases of bosses that do need to be toned down for solo in mind (Crab king for example), I don't disagree with that.

I'm not asking people to no-hit the game from start to finish and it's an unreasonable ask for any player and takes an immense amount of time even for the best of the best due to the unpredictable nature of DST as a whole, disregard the run completely here I'm not talking about it. I don't know why you thought that I was expecting people to do that. I stated that there are a lot of strategies for each boss that players can employ for the same result. The amount of resources invested and preparation time is your own choice. You can get away with just a weapon and armor for most bosses it just takes more time rather than it necessarily being harder generally. And bosses needing resources is fine, that's just a part of how the game should be.

The new bosses have their own set of issues around their designs that as I stated completely disregard rewarding creativity like older bosses do. They are linear and quite literally do not vary between characters and have gotten old for me. It genuinely feels like character perks do not matter for them as they do for other bosses because they all have AoE for followers and knockback for beefalo and are so linear since you are expected to beat them the way the developers designed it. This isn't to say that the bosses we have are perfect as I already stated.Crab king and Bee queen are big stinkers for me and I am not opposed to change but I just don't think the route Klei is headed with literally every new boss is good.

I think players should be expected to need preparation and to need practice and not just run at a boss with a hambat and a dream while being completely clueless at how they work. The game punishes you for being clueless and that's just how it is built. This isn't elitism, I'm not telling players to play this one way that I think should be played. I think that bosses should be dynamic and that different characters should approach them in different ways. I think that the naptime stun mechanic all of the previous 6 bosses have is starting to become very overused.

[grm9]

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

Bosses are quite unfair because they are made for multiplayer

how does what were they made for matter? you still didn't answer

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

as If bosses really aren't unfair

define unfair, they sure are unfair because you can learn but bosses can't

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

thinking about a bigger picture most players don't have experience or should have to go through what we did to learn these boss fights and to start enjoying them

they can use brightshade staff, ice staves, bees/weather pains, pan flute, bunnymen etc., you can kill all bosses skilllessly if you want to

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Spending 10000+ hours on DST and developing an insane level of muscle memory for kiting invalidates Guille's opinion on the topic of boss balance

you could spend an infinite amount of hours playing the game and still be bad at it, that's entirely irrelevant, some people simply don't try to improve so they never do

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Its unrealistic to expect the average player to get to this level of "git gud"ness

you don't need to, use brightshade staff if you don't want to learn or only a weapon, sanity food, insanity food and armor if you do, no one forces you to do anything, they could've also kept cheese for people like you but they removed it for some reason

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Ancient fuelweaver needs nerfed

no, he doesn't, you can already do the fight 1st try with a brightshade staff

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Dfly needs reworked

it doesn't

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Edit: Bee queen also needs reworked (make her a "follower vs follower" boss fight were if you have followers like pigs her grumbles and your pigs only target each other allowing you to fight bee queen 1v1)

that'd be extremely dumb and pointless, you can already use minions so there's no point in invalidating all other strats

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Toadstool needs reworked. (Maybe make him get his leg stuck in the ponds if hes moving at max speed from spore trees, giving you time to cut trees.)

not another braindead "stand behind the obstacle to stagger the boss" fight that you can do 1st try that'd feel like a waste of time after that

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Crab king needs reworked or cannon needs to have a special combat interaction with him

didn't you say that cheese is bad? your suggestion for the cannon was literally just to turn it into intended cheese, he doesn't need a rework, why do you need cannon to 12-shot him if you have bees?

1 hour ago, Faintly Macabre said:

this just doesn't really prove anything

bosses not being resource sinks? those aren't even the most optimal strats, some of those are more effective if you get hit

1 hour ago, Faintly Macabre said:

do they have to be such a chore?

fight enraged dfly if normal dfly is too boring, do minimal gear FW if normal FW is too boring, figure out a strat for BQ, use torches instead of axes for toad if it's too boring

1 hour ago, Faintly Macabre said:

everybody who objects to the ridiculous damage sponges and 10-minute long fights when the game is played solo is thrown into the same bucket: "game too hard"

wrong, klei are already adding perks for fighting to practically all characters and the argument is that people that don't want to learn can get a lot of stuff and people that want to learn can do minimal gear fights if they want

9 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Regardless unlike older bosses they arnt damage sponges so refighting them properly for drops isnt much of an issue

hardest part about them is not getting killed by boredom

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

The new bosses have no exploits forcing you to get better at combat or to prep more armour and healing instead if you are bad at kiting them, they dont reward learning and using game exploits. New bosses reward you for learning their weaknesses and kiting pattern

they don't reward you for anything because you're going to kill them 1st try or 2nd try at worst, do people unironically have issues with walking to the side? also, what you said applies to minimal gear FW, why don't you like it?

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Not unfair just not fun

subjective, imo new bosses are extremely boring and old bosses are fun, since they require more thought than walking to the side

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

The problem with old bosses there used to be/still is, readily available exploits to make the fights much easier. The average person learned to exploit bosses instead of getting better at kiting

that isn't a problem, there are no issues with that, although it's a problem that people spread misinformation about fights or say that they're bad without trying, but that's a problem with the community instead of the game

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

The only problem with FW is healing but I see this as a problem for all bosses with healing mechanic since we can't see boss HP

FW goes back to p1 and starts casting spikes falling down nearby the ancient gateway, CK visibly restores own castle

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

Bosses being designed for multiplayer makes them unfair for solo players

what were they designed for doesn't matter for anything at all

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

Which new boss has minion summons like DF or BQ? It is obvious that klei realized that these mechanics are very bad for solo play

no, they just realised that people prefer bosses that can be easily killed on 1st or 2nd try so they can feel good because of thinking that they achieved something even though they didn't

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

The thing is that you have accepted it as normal for bosses to be as they are but look at DS boss health and compare to DST and how much you needed to prepare in DS (with armor stacking) and now DST

DST bosses aren't resource sinks, you just don't want to use optimal strats because they require learning so instead you complain about easy strats being uneffective

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

just because they are designed for multiplayer with massive amounts of health

DS bosses had too little hp, they weren't hard to fight and you could get 99.5% damage absorption, they weren't the hard part of the game

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

removal (replacement) of minion summon mechanics

stop trying to ruin our fun by dumbing bosses down, what's bad about minions?

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

You don't need any strategy beyond using a simple weapon in a multiplayer, you just melt the boss and often won't even need any healing

suddenly, 2 people are more effective than 1, should people's chopping speed also get halved when there are 2 players in a server?

[00petar00]

34 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

The amount of resources invested and preparation time is your own choice. You can get away with just a weapon and armor for most bosses it just takes more time rather than it necessarily being harder generally. And bosses needing resources is fine, that's just a part of how the game should be.

Investment for a boss fight goes almost to nothing in a group.

35 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

The new bosses have their own set of issues around their designs that as I stated completely disregard rewarding creativity like older bosses do. They are linear and quite literally do not vary between characters and have gotten old for me. It genuinely feels like character perks do not matter for them as they do for other bosses because they all have AoE for followers and knockback for beefalo and are so linear since you are expected to beat them the way the developers designed it. This isn't to say that the bosses we have are perfect as I already stated.Crab king and Bee queen are big stinkers for me and I am not opposed to change but I just don't think the route Klei is headed with literally every new boss is good.

I agree that new bosses are very linear and have their own problems and I like older bosses besides BQ/CK and DF without walls but at least they don't have unfair mechanics for a solo play.

37 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

I think players should be expected to need preparation and to need practice and not just run at a boss with a hambat and a dream while being completely clueless at how they work. The game punishes you for being clueless and that's just how it is built. This isn't elitism, I'm not telling players to play this one way that I think should be played. I think that bosses should be dynamic and that different characters should approach them in different ways. I think that the naptime stun mechanic all of the previous 6 bosses have is starting to become very overused.

What I see as elitist is you saying that someone should practice a boss made for multiplayer with abilities that in the code are specifically mentioning another player tacking on minions (lavae) and that these mechanics are fine to you.

Bosses should be dynamic but I don't agree with summoning mechanic that is made for multiplayer that would overwhelm solo players but we use specific items and need to get much better at fighting them compared to someone who always plays with other people.

31 minutes ago, grm9 said:

how does what were they made for matter? you still didn't answer

Unfair because they are made for multiplayer, how is this hard to understand? Look at DS Dragonfly health and mechanics (no lavae/minion summoning), now compare it no DST. I do find DST Dragonfly more fun because DS Dragonfly doesn't have much health but if I didn't use walls, I would hate the fight.

38 minutes ago, grm9 said:

what were they designed for doesn't matter for anything at all

It does matter because difficulty has been increased for solo players because the game was made for multiplayer this is fundamentally unfair for solo players.

39 minutes ago, grm9 said:

DST bosses aren't resource sinks, you just don't want to use optimal strats because they require learning so instead you complain about easy strats being uneffective

They aren't big resource sinks for me after playing for so long but they still take resources when they literally take nothing besides a weapon in a group whenever I play with other people.

40 minutes ago, grm9 said:

DS bosses had too little hp, they weren't hard to fight and you could get 99.5% damage absorption, they weren't the hard part of the game

42 minutes ago, grm9 said:

stop trying to ruin our fun by dumbing bosses down, what's bad about minions?

I agree with this but at least mechanics weren't made for group play, so there can be a compromise but you are unwilling to accept any changes that make any boss easier in your eyes even If a suggestion is to replace minion summoning mechanic with something else.

I am not ruining anything, you keep repeating this in every single thread discussing boss changes as If what me or others are saying is something only we would like to see when majority of the players have problems fighting bosses.

44 minutes ago, grm9 said:

suddenly, 2 people are more effective than 1, should people's chopping speed also get halved when there are 2 players in a server?

What you aren't seeing is that it isn't simple 1+1 like with chopping but a multiplier because bosses have mechanics that are made to be tackled by more players and they don't use more abilities If there are more players while a solo player will always have to deal with boss ability before being able to attack.

[grm9]

On 5/8/2024 at 9:31 AM, 00petar00 said:

Unfair because they are made for multiplayer

why? how does what they were made for matter? i keep repeating it because you keep ignoring it 

On 5/8/2024 at 9:31 AM, 00petar00 said:

Look at DS Dragonfly health and mechanics (no lavae/minion summoning), now compare it no DST

stop bringing up DS, DS bosses were easy and boring

On 5/8/2024 at 9:31 AM, 00petar00 said:

if I didn't use walls, I would hate the fight

have you ever tried? use a damage multiplier/ice staves

On 5/8/2024 at 9:31 AM, 00petar00 said:

What I see as elitist is you saying that someone should practice a boss made for multiplayer with abilities that in the code are specifically mentioning another player tacking on minions (lavae) and that these mechanics are fine to you

literally no one uses that strat, why do you keep bringing up things that practically never happen?

On 5/8/2024 at 9:31 AM, 00petar00 said:

unfair mechanics for a solo play

define unfair

On 5/8/2024 at 9:31 AM, 00petar00 said:

It does matter because difficulty has been increased for solo players because the game was made for multiplayer this is fundamentally unfair for solo players

is making bosses fun unfair?

On 5/8/2024 at 9:31 AM, 00petar00 said:

They aren't big resource sinks for me after playing for so long but they still take resources when they literally take nothing besides a weapon in a group whenever I play with other people

ask for them to become harder when playing with other people instead then?

On 5/8/2024 at 9:31 AM, 00petar00 said:

I agree with this but at least mechanics weren't made for group play, so there can be a compromise but you are unwilling to accept any changes that make any boss easier in your eyes even If a suggestion is to replace minion summoning mechanic with something else

because they're the most fun parts about the bosses

On 5/8/2024 at 9:31 AM, 00petar00 said:

I am not ruining anything, you keep repeating this in every single thread discussing boss changes as If what me or others are saying is something only we would like to see when majority of the players have problems fighting bosses

that's a problem with the community, people keep using a strat from the 1st guide that they found and complaining about it being not fun instead of looking for more fun/efficient strats

On 5/8/2024 at 9:31 AM, 00petar00 said:

What you aren't seeing is that it isn't simple 1+1 like with chopping but a multiplier because bosses have mechanics that are made to be tackled by more players and they don't use more abilities If there are more players while a solo player will always have to deal with boss ability before being able to attack

so?

On 5/8/2024 at 9:31 AM, 00petar00 said:

at least mechanics weren't made for group play

how does it matter what were they made for? they were much more boring and worse in comparison to all old bosses

[00petar00]

2 minutes ago, grm9 said:

why? how does what they were made for matter? i keep repeating this because you keep ignoring this

Like I mentioned multiple times, it matters because that makes it unfair for solo players. How many times will you ask me to repeat this?

3 minutes ago, grm9 said:

stop bringing up DS, DS bosses were easy and boring

I can keep bringing it up and I will because it is a valid point.

What makes them boring is mostly their low HP but some DST bosses have too much HP and mechanics that aren't made for solo player.

The thing is you find them boring but a lot of casuals would prefer to have bosses with low HP and majority of the gamers are casuals. 

7 minutes ago, grm9 said:

have you ever tried? use a damage multiplier/ice staves

I dislike minion summoning so I won't practice that but I did try when my friend wanted to fight DF without walls. Mechanic needs to be replaced but we need more creativity, I don't want old bosses or even future bosses to be like the recent boss releases because I find them linear and boring and they have a lot of similar or same abilities.

9 minutes ago, grm9 said:

literally no one uses that strat, why do you keep bringing up things that practically never happen?

Maybe because in multiplayer you don't need to be as careful and anyone can kill lavae while dragonfly is summoning more. I bring it up because that is the intention of developers when designing the ability.

Why do you keep bringing up that bosses are fine when majority of the players have trouble killing them?

14 minutes ago, grm9 said:

define unfair

You can google it yourself If you don't understand the definition. What I find unfair is bosses that klei intentionally designed for multiplayer to be tackled by a solo player requiring much more skill or/and resources.

17 minutes ago, grm9 said:

is making bosses fun unfair?

Bosses can be fun like every single boss besides BQ/CK/DF and FW is on the line because of how much is required of a player to do but overall he is the one that needs changes the least out of the ones I mentioned.

22 minutes ago, grm9 said:

ask for them to become harder when playing with other people instead then?

I did say that bosses can be made harder for multiplayer and there was even a good suggestion about specific enrage mode or something like that based on dps dealt but you were against it.

23 minutes ago, grm9 said:

because they're the most fun parts about the bosses

To you the fun part is the difficulty and not the mechanic, you are arguing against any changes so that means that even If a boss fight doesn't become easier you still wouldn't want it to change.

 

[Swiyss]

7 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

I had my doubts but then I saw you had the bottomless fire pit and I realized my mistake, my apologies

is that a rare skin?

3 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Mike gonna Mike, but in his defense, Guille's the one who made this about something more than just his achievement.

When I initially read this, my immediate inclination was just to reply "bro, you're a ****ing speedrunner." Then I thought no, I should really try to engage with this and point out all the problems and blind spots of this logic and what other players want/think. But...

bro, you're a ****ing speedrunner. It feels ridiculous to need to point out to you that even a few levels below this level of execution is just not something everyone can or even just wants to achieve. Obviously you're not saying that everybody should be able to do this, but if you're not, then this just doesn't really prove anything, at least not anything people didn't already know. Speedrunner good at game. Speedrunner love game.

Part of the problem is that everybody who objects to the ridiculous damage sponges and 10-minute long fights when the game is played solo is thrown into the same bucket: "game too hard". But we're actually not all claiming to be incapable of completing or even especially challenged by these encounters.

You obviously really enjoy this game and I think especially its combat, and that's totally cool. But I watch your video and see you spending nearly 9 minutes to kill Dragonfly, the majority of which is spent swinging a half a dozen times, stepping away, rinse and repeat, and it lowkey makes me want to die. Combat in this game is... fine. It has a little more depth than it's sometimes given credit for, but not a lot. And I find it pretty boring. At least, not interesting enough to enjoy repeatedly engaging in it for ten minutes or more at a time. But in a game with so many activities, most of the major steps of progression are locked behind doing these lengthy dances. That's somewhat to be expected, but for god's sake, do they have to be such a chore?

nah, I for example play for fun and I just needed to do cc quest 3 times 1 year ago to perfect the whole thing. It is actually not that complicated, it is really a matter of knowledge (which our brains have a lot of space for it, trust me) and muscle memory (which should be acquired 90% atleast the first time you try it unless you have something going on for you, ykwim).

[grm9]

4 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

that makes it unfair for solo players

how?

5 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

How many times will you ask me to repeat this?

until you define what unfair is

7 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I can keep bringing it up and I will because it is a valid point

it isn't, bosses weren't the fun part about DS

7 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

What makes them boring is mostly their low HP

wrong, it's simply uninteresting to fight them, if tiger shark or quacken would've had 10k hp they wouldn't have became more fun

8 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

The thing is you find them boring but a lot of casuals would prefer to have bosses with low HP and majority of the gamers are casuals

if klei want to make a game that most people'd play then they should be making a free online multiplayer shooter or whatever's popular these days, not a survival game

9 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I dislike minion summoning so I won't practice

that's simply your issue then

10 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Mechanic needs to be replaced

it doesn't, it's already the most fun part

10 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Maybe because in multiplayer you don't need to be as careful and anyone can kill lavae while dragonfly is summoning more. I bring it up because that is the intention of developers when designing the ability

how does their intention matter? they might've not intended voidwalking, but it's still more fun than finding atrium normally, they might've not intended people to specifically use bramble husk against BQ multiple years after it gets released, but they do anyway and that works, their intention and what did they design stuff for doesn't matter, it's irrelevant to the result

12 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Why do you keep bringing up that bosses are fine when majority of the players have trouble killing them?

you don't have any statistics and most people have wrong expectations for what are they supposed to do, expecting baby mode dark souls instead of puzzles

13 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

You can google it yourself If you don't understand the definition

we don't have any specific rules and bosses and players sure are unequal because players can learn while bosses can't, so we need to nerf players

14 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

What I find unfair is bosses that klei intentionally designed for multiplayer to be tackled by a solo player requiring much more skill or/and resources

why do you care about how hard they are in multiplayer and why do you keep comparing them?

15 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Bosses can be fun like every single boss besides BQ/CK/DF and FW

so all bosses except fun bosses are fun?

16 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I did say that bosses can be made harder for multiplayer and there was even a good suggestion about specific enrage mode or something like that based on dps dealt but you were against it

because that'd make damage multipliers worthless if you're going to trigger x2.6 hp by dealing x2.6 damage and lock people out of fun fights if they'll require high dps to activate

17 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

To you the fun part is the difficulty and not the mechanic

it's fun to figure out strats to counter it, even if many of them aren't hard to execute 

19 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

you are arguing against any changes

i want them to add a clue about dodging bone cage and CK heal cancel window

[00petar00]

2 minutes ago, grm9 said:

if klei want to make a game that most people'd play then they should be making a free online multiplayer shooter or whatever's popular these days, not a survival game

You might be out of the loop but a lot of casual players like sandbox/building games. DST is a very unique and good game that I believe would be able to become much more popular If it was more catered towards casuals.

6 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you don't have any statistics and most people have wrong expectations for what are they supposed to do, expecting baby mode dark souls instead of puzzles

I don't need to have statistics, connect to 10 random servers that have 4+ people on and check how they are faring vs bosses.

klei does have the statistics so that is why new bosses are made without minion mechancs and while their mechanics may be linear at least they are in tune with what is expected for solo play.

8 minutes ago, grm9 said:

we don't have any specific rules and bosses and players sure are unequal because players can learn while bosses can't, so we need to nerf players

But we do know that bosses like toadstool, BQ, DF (its in the code with lavae mentioning other player taking them on) are literally made for multiplayer. That makes it unfair to solo players. I am sure we can find countless evidence that these bosses are made for multiplayer by going through klei stream vods and their statements/update patch notes.

12 minutes ago, grm9 said:

because that'd make damage multipliers worthless if you're going to trigger x2.6 hp by dealing x2.6 damage and lock people out of fun fights if they'll require high dps to activate

You are making stuff up as you go, no one said that boss should have HP increased to match the damage dealt so that players don't benefit from multiplayer. Why not instead have bosses use abilities quicker or summon more minions based on player count? Players would still be able to deal with these mechanics and kill bosses faster in group but it wouldn't be a breeze like it currently is.

 

 

[grm9]

1 minute ago, 00petar00 said:

You might be out of the loop but a lot of casual players like sandbox/building games. DST is a very unique and good game that I believe would be able to become much more popular If it was more catered towards casuals

didn't you bring up dark souls yourself?

2 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I don't need to have statistics, connect to 10 random servers that have 4+ people on and check how they are faring vs bosses

most people that play on pubs are newbies that don't know anything, you also need to look at people playing on private servers

4 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

at least they are in tune with what is expected for solo play

your expectations are wrong then

5 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

klei does have the statistics so that is why new bosses are made without minion mechancs

because people complained enough about bosses not dying if they mindlessly try to kite them

6 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

That makes it unfair to solo players

how? how is that related to anything? they're more fun to fight when playing solo in comparison to multiplayer

7 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I am sure we can find countless evidence that these bosses are made for multiplayer by going through klei stream vods and their statements/update patch notes

you still didn't say how does that matter, their intention and what did they design them for is irrelevant

7 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Why not instead have bosses use abilities quicker or summon more minions based on player count?

that's entirely unrelated to the idea then, you'd still need to spend more time dodging/killing minions when playing solo if it would've got increased depending on dps like how they suggested

9 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

You are making stuff up as you go

wrong

[Uedo]

8 hours ago, Critviscosity said:

Can you point out these "strange things" you noticed because so far you have pointed out only one thing not everyone you disagree with is a troll because you get frustrated with being unable to make an argument.

I was disappointed too; He mentioned what was in the image, not the image itself. Do you wanna explain to everyone what's wrong with the image? Forget what it depicts :P Sneaky sneaky

7 hours ago, Critviscosity said:

Magicanes and you could ask them for it if you find them, But I highly doubt they'd talk to you

EWWWWWWW. Did I just step in fresh-warm cringe? Please dispose of your cringe properly, don't leave it hot and steaming all over the forum floor :/

[00petar00]

3 minutes ago, grm9 said:

didn't you bring up dark souls yourself?

I did because I thought that game fit your playstyle more than DST based on what you keep saying.

14 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

You might be out of the loop but a lot of casual players like sandbox/building games. DST is a very unique and good game that I believe would be able to become much more popular If it was more catered towards casuals.

What does that have to do with what I said here? Dark souls isn't a game made for casuals.

6 minutes ago, grm9 said:

most people that play on pubs are newbies that don't know anything, you also need to look at people playing on private servers

I do but there's still the same issue and I see players fighting bosses together more often than not.

7 minutes ago, grm9 said:

because people complained enough about bosses not dying if they mindlessly try to kite them

If someone is skilled enough to do that why shouldn't this be possible? That is how it should be.

8 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you still didn't say how does that matter, their intention and what did they design them for is irrelevant

It is relevant because you keep bringing up the word unfair and asking me to explain, If something is designed for 10 people and you have to do the job of 10 people alone, that makes it unfair.

 

[Swiyss]

47 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

is that a rare skin?

wait I have it also lol 

and this one