With all this talk about bosses being too difficult for solo players, is it time for Klei to add health scaling based on the number of players?

[EatenCheetos]

This mod has a great implementation, though I think an official solution should be based off max players rather than active players.

In that mod when there's 1 player, mobs use their singleplayer HP values; when there's 6 players, mobs use their DST HP values; and every other player count has linearly-determined HP values in between.

Mobs exclusive to DST would have to have their own singleplayer values added, but everything else would certainly be balanced seeing as their based off of pre-existing ratios of [health value : expected player count].

Edited March 28 by EatenCheetos
Added Desmos link for equation

[Well-met]

Yes but only if all exploits are gone

[Faintly Macabre]

4 minutes ago, Well-met said:

Yes but only if all exploits are gone

Well-met, can you show us on the doll where the voidwalkers touched you?

[Siren11]

16 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said:

I think an official solution should be based off max players rather than active players.

So it would be based off the max player count when you start a world?

I’m not opposed to health scaling, but this might not be helpful for worlds where the active player count changes often. So… it wouldn’t really be helpful for someone like me. A lot of my friends can’t play often, but I wouldn’t want to exclude them from my worlds just so I can beat Fuelweaver (and tbh even with health scaling that’s a long shot rn).

I do like using max players bc it gives the option to keep the fights the same even for solo players, though.

[Faintly Macabre]

Bit more on topic, this is something that's been suggested several times over the years, and invariably a bunch of people come in all "muh immersion" as if the nuts and bolts of this game are invisible to the naked eye or something.

[Mike23Ua]

This is going to be completely controversial, but giving DSTs bosses DS solo stats would be almost overkill.

Why? Crazy powerful reworks and skill trees, and while some are admitably lacking.. others such as Wormwood & Willow rise to flame and glory.

However… and to play devils Advocate, these Crazy powerful perks that would go a great length in making Solo DST play more enjoyable are ALSO still very much available in Multiplayer, so What was probably added to aid solo play, also made multiplayer that much easier…

I feel like because of this bosses need to scale both downward AND upward, maybe the fights can proximity based, or total players allowed in the match based.. but whatever the case they need to be both easier when fought alone, and not a push over when fought in groups of 3 or more.

Willow Kamehameha blasting Deerclops is just too hilarious NOT to use.

[Faintly Macabre]

6 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I feel like because of this bosses need to scale both downward AND upward, maybe the fights can proximity based, or total players allowed in the match based.. but whatever the case they need to be both easier when fought alone, and not a push over when fought in groups of 3 or more.

Myself, from another thread that briefly touched on the topic:

Quote

I've wanted this for a long, long time. It doesn't even have to be all about making the fight easier for fewer players -- you could also have bosses scale upward from where they are now at a certain number of players, and reward those players with more drops, so you're not functionally punished for playing with a full server (as long as the upward scaling is reasonable).

[Siren11]

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

This is going to be completely controversial, but giving DSTs bosses DS solo stats would be almost overkill.

I agree with this. And even playing solo, my issues with bosses rarely come down to health. Some of the raid boss fights could be a bit shorter tho (Toadstool…)

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I feel like because of this bosses need to scale both downward AND upward, maybe the fights can proximity based, or total players allowed in the match based.. but whatever the case they need to be both easier when fought alone, and not a push over when fought in groups of 3 or more.

I’ve never fought with that many people (my friends usually hang out at the base and die), but I’m always amazed watching other groups play. The bosses fold so quickly if you’ve got six people, and some of them can barely fight back! It would be interesting if the fights were a little more challenging in groups.

[Sacco]

killing bosses in dst is easy, even alone.

with the addition of skill trees it became just a joke.

when i was new at the game i managed to kill dfly, bee queen and even more bosses with 0 experience (obviously i searched something about them on google/youtube)

reducing their health would just make the fights last less time for no reason.

[Yuuko]

I don't think health is a major factor, and the only scaling we should get would be up as fights end extremely quickly with >2 players.  We have plenty of tools to deal damage.

The issues are mechanics that flood a player, such as how many grumbles BQueen spawns, how many sporecaps Toad spawns, etc which relates to how much damage window a solo player can get.  In a multiplayer fight the grumbles can be lured away from BQueen or otherwise dealt with by 1 player, while the others just mash F on her.  Same with toad, 1-2 ppl with glass axes can clear his sporecaps on spawn while everyone else just mashes F.  AFW and CK both have massive healing, enough to reset the fight against a solo 1x damage mod character if you mess up.  AFW solo you have to manage keeping the wovens away, toggling sanity to defeat hands, while also timing the defeat of the last woven with the last hand to maximize damage window.  In a group you can easily handle each of these tasks and don't need to time much of anything.  Same with CK, a solo player has to handle freezing spells, defeating claws, repairing boat, and timing attacks to break heals while in multiplayer 1 player can do just claws / freezing / boats while everyone else just holds F on CK the entire time.

So no - I don't think health is the issue.  I think the mechanics like # of claws, wovens, amount healed, etc those mechanics should scale by proximity player count.  If these were more manageable the health wouldn't be a factor.

Edited March 28 by Yuuko

[arubaro]

I though you wanted a challenge like burning bases when you are far away. You have fun grinding to rebuild the same thing over and over but can deal with a 5min fight? Lmao

[Mike23Ua]

56 minutes ago, Sacco said:

killing bosses in dst is easy, even alone.

with the addition of skill trees it became just a joke.

when i was new at the game i managed to kill dfly, bee queen and even more bosses with 0 experience (obviously i searched something about them on google/youtube)

reducing their health would just make the fights last less time for no reason.

Yeah maybe, but what does that say about the rest of the game as a whole.. if boss fights are the main focus?

If Klei lowered the threshold to engage in boss fights, made them short but fun encounters.. People will start realizing that outside of those overly long drawn out fights… the game (as a whole) doesn’t have enough meat on its bones.

I firmly believe that if bosses weren’t such the chore that they are currently, that Klei would focus on other areas of the game that are currently going heavily neglected (cave biomes reworks, filling out the ocean with cool islands to explore, updated behavior of game mobs)

Ill use the newest update as an actual example: On New Game+ Mode (Rifts Enabled) Klei changed in this very update.. Depth Worms to move faster and attack and damage harder when effected by acid rain.

But the problem with that is it isn’t new content.. and it doesn’t FEEL like new content, it’s the same stuff we’ve been playing all along, just speed up and a tiny bit more deadly if you fail to dodge it.

What should’ve happened is it got a brand new appearance, maybe as it tunneled underground it spread a trail of acid, maybe it popped up out the ground at a distance from the player spitting acid balls that hit the ground and splat much like the Grazer Marshmellows do from lunar rifts.. 

Instead the Werepig got all the new animations and content love, because Klei has an over fixation on Boss fights.

[grm9]

5 hours ago, Well-met said:

Yes but only if all exploits are gone

people aren't even trying to hide that they're elitist and hate others anymore lol, not to mention that even some people that are good at the game and can do stuff without cheese use cheese

[EatenCheetos]

4 hours ago, arubaro said:

I though you wanted a challenge like burning bases when you are far away. You have fun grinding to rebuild the same thing over and over but can deal with a 5min fight? Lmao

Are you ever going to comment anything different?

3 hours ago, grm9 said:

people aren't even trying to hide that they're elitist and hate others anymore lol, not to mention that even some people that are good at the game and can do stuff without cheese use cheese

You have gotta stop with this too, it’s just getting annoying

Edited March 28 by EatenCheetos

[grm9]

6 hours ago, EatenCheetos said:

You have gotta stop with this too, it’s just getting annoying

then stop suggesting to ruin others' fun?

[EatenCheetos]

51 minutes ago, grm9 said:

then stop suggesting to ruin others' fun?

Cheats / cheesing / exploits are bad for the game and should be removed, period. I don’t care if cheating is fun for you.

[grm9]

4 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said:

Cheats / cheesing / exploits are bad for the game and should be removed, period. I don’t care if cheating is fun for you

then you're simply selfish and have no logic nor is communicating with you worthwhile, since you don't provide any reasoning

[Mike23Ua]

45 minutes ago, grm9 said:

then stop suggesting to ruin others' fun?

As someone who plays a lot of RogueLites/likes one of the main attractions of that particular genre of video game is it Boss Fights, and you will be doing these boss fights on Repeat with each and every run attempt..

But with DST, is it REALLY considered as “Fun” to Self-Automate a key boss fight like that? I mean it’s literally like asking the devs to put in a toggle setting so the game plays itself and you can just watch, maybe hop in and take control after it auto skips the parts you can’t or don’t want to play yourself?

but can anyone actually call that “Fun”? Could you imagine how much “fun” I would have if the key bosses laying at the end of every dungeon in every RogueLite game to ever exist had some sort of super cheap exploitive bug that let me skip actually fighting the boss?

People who are Auto-Mating these fights are doing so not to save “Time” but to save “Resources” they don’t have to bring X,Y,Z items to the fight with them- Because they have no intentions of engaging with the fights intended mechanics.

You’re not going to bring along the required armor, healing supplies & weapons- When you can bug out the game and trick the boss into skipping animations and phases it otherwise would’ve went through normally.

So let’s be logical here… is this “Fun?”

Cause ima be reallll honest- If I gathered a bunch of artifacts, upgraded all my gear as high as I could, fought.. died to, fought again, finally learned a bosses attack patterns- And THEN someone discovers that dashing past the boss and attacking the wall behind him let’s you glitch through the map and the boss falls into lava for an instant kill will make gathering all that other stuff and preparing Irrelevant.

So in conclusion: Your cheese isn’t “Fun” and yes it does indeed break the game & the way your intended to play it.

Now rather or not Klei is brave enough to firmly stand by removing it, or if they cave to peer pressure and revert it bringing back the exploit- That remains to be seen.

But facts are facts- I wouldn’t spend hours grinding out resources to fight an end of dungeon boss in a RogueLite, if there was a cheap method that didn’t even require me to gather artifacts & upgrade my gear.

And That… obviously breaks the game.

[EatenCheetos]

31 minutes ago, grm9 said:

then you're simply selfish and have no logic nor is communicating with you worthwhile, since you don't provide any reasoning

I could say the exact same for you. It’s selfish to keep a mechanic broken just because you like to abuse it. You’re certainly not doing the game any favors, only yourself. Which sounds like sabotage if you ask me.

If you want to talk about ruining fun, I’ll tell you what ruins mine: looking up tutorials and guides only to see that the best way is to cheese something. Not only do we lose actual guide information via opportunity cost, but doing that thing is going to make me feel like I’m wasting my time & resources.

So please, for the love of all that is holy, stop thinking about yourself and start thinking about the greater good of the game.

[grm9]

16 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said:

You’re certainly not doing the game any favors, only yourself

you still didn't say a single thing about what "hurting the game" or "better for the game" or "the greater good of the game" is, cheese existing isn't hurting any players

16 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said:

If you want to talk about ruining fun, I’ll tell you what ruins mine: looking up tutorials and guides only to see that the best way is to cheese something. Not only do we lose actual guide information via opportunity cost, but doing that thing is going to make me feel like I’m wasting my time & resources

1st few results are still cheeseless and people can look for another guide if they don't want to use cheese, cheese still isn't the best way to fight it because you need to either rely on lazy explorer RNG for spikes cheese or play as maxwell or play as wormwood or wait for spring to get lureplant or play as webber or wait for winter to get spider eggs, people use cheese even if it isn't more fun than doing the fight without it because they don't want to spend time doing the fight but want whatever happens after the boss' death to happen, e.g. people megabasing and having to fight the boss every time they want to regen ruins

Edited March 28 by grm9

[EatenCheetos]

5 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you still didn't say a single thing about what "hurting the game" or "better for the game" or "the greater good of the game" is

BECAUSE ITS OBVIOUS

Cheating, exploits, and cheesing = bad. Allowing them to exist within the game = bad. Opposing their removal so you can keep doing them = selfish.

I can't believe I have to spell this out. Besides, Klei already made their decision in favor of removing cheesing, you're just gonna have to respect that. If you want to cheat, just download a mod or something, but please stop with these comments.

[grm9]

3 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said:

BECAUSE ITS OBVIOUS

Cheating, exploits, and cheesing = bad. Allowing them to exist within the game = bad. Opposing their removal so you can keep doing them = selfish

those are entirely unrelated to what i asked about, you still didn't name a single reason about why are they bad, wanting to keep things that aren't hurting anyone else isn't selfish

3 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said:

If you want to cheat, just download a mod or something, but please stop with these comments

bugs are available on all servers though, unlike mods, that'd require people who want to use cheese to pretty much never play on public servers

Edited March 28 by grm9

[EatenCheetos]

8 minutes ago, grm9 said:

that'd require people who want to use cheese to pretty much never play on public servers

That would be so nice

8 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you still didn't name a single reason about why are they bad, wanting to keep things that aren't hurting anyone else isn't selfish

They're bad by definition! By the nature of simply existing they hurt the game! Therefore, wanting to keep them for yourself = not caring that they're in the game = not caring that they're hurting the game.

Edited March 28 by EatenCheetos

[grm9]

4 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said:

They're bad by definition! By the nature of simply existing they hurt the game!

how?

4 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said:

That would be so nice

people aren't even trying to hide that they simply hate others and want them to suffer anymore

[EatenCheetos]

Just now, grm9 said:

how?

people aren't even trying to hide that they simply hate others and want them to suffer anymore

I'm not going to argue with you anymore, it's pretty clear you're either trolling or rage baiting