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Wigfrid Skilltree needs a second chance(big post)


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sorry not sorry if im spamming with this post, i've seen a lot of feedback on this already but can't find anything similar to my opinion:love_heart:
Shes not weak, and im not talking about balance here, this skilltree is just so wrong from every side.

Starting with the main issue: there is no choice in picking skills

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7 skills that you wont need for more than half of your gameplay
        ↓   ↓   ↓
2 of them being crafts that forces you to re-pick Wigfrid using celestial portal (more than once with 1 skillpoint left)
1 revive song locked on multiplayer with high price
Honorable mention to cooldown on battle stingers, being so underwhelming that passive 10% affinity damage is more useful.
       
  With everything above, not everyone tames a beefalo(I personally main and love doing it!!) so we have more 3 skills unused.
But whats even more wrong about this: when you reach late-game, you will be forced to re-pick Wigfrid again, to just.. forget about either shield or beefalo skills you were using all game.. in order to use those that required late-game from the beginning and wasn't a part of other skills, even though you wouldn't benefit from it anyway..? 


 "Interesting" late-game skills being unusable, what do we have to use from the start? Everything is passive
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  Shes a passive ctrl+f character named by community at this point: more% damage, more% defense, more% inspiration on hit, more% durabillity on helmet, more% with beefalo, more% on affinity: everything is passive. 
Wait, she had a rework with amazing addition to ingame soundtrack which I LOVE, wonder what effect on battlesongs is... oh its passive too, use once and ctrl+f with buffs. 
Battlesongs deserves to be more than just stat passives

 Back to the skilltree, insp on hit and helmet having 2 levels is so unnoticable. With skills for new crafts being separated from main effects, no one uses Elding Spear without dash skill, right? Don't forget shield too, its useless without other upgrades. Whole Arsenal tree is full of filler with no new mechanic, while every other skilltree got something special, her weapons are straight up from The Forge, and at the same time its the only useful skills we can use..


Whats wrong with gameplay part of Skilltree:

  1. More inspiration while using spears makes little difference for both daily and boss fights.
  2. More durabillity on Battle Helmet is good but I find myself changing it to Commander's Helm faster than starting helmet breaks and first Autumn ends  (even without tanking on beefalo)
  3. Elding Spear in early-game has a lot of problems that is caused by how volt goat horns is annoyng to farm and low durabillity of weapon itself. Nobody is using it as intended right now, instead, just abusing small mobs with dash, such as birds, spiders, pigs etc. which causes ankward running around waiting for cooldown to continue "afk" farming meat (Pig King bases gained popularity)
  4. Battle Rond is nice to use, doesnt feel overpowered because requires some skill and ping. Though its craft and durabillity can be doubled to decrease amount of beefalo whool and gold in players inventory so they wont need to craft it so often.

What could've it been? Suggestions:

     Make space for new skills by connecting fillers:

  • Instead of 13 skills, Arsenal tree can have 5, removing more insp using spears to focus only on arsenal
  • Passive +5 planar defense can be moved into Affinity
  • Combine all beefalo passives into one or make them optional instead of levels, so that it won't interfere in picking late-game skills

                                        ↓   ↓   ↓
     That would give us -+10 slots for new skills, but what does she need? Unicorn  More Focused Utillity
This is where crazy ideas from 5k hours Wathgrithr main(me) starts, don't take them too seriously its kind of brainstorm:frog:
Hunting Tree:

  1. Short speed boost after examining Suspicious Dirt Pile + more chance for it to spawn, upon discovering the beast she gains its agro and some inspiration for atleast one buff
  2. More chance to spawn Turkey when picking Berry Bushes or new craft for bait made of berries to summon them
  3. Special attack for Battle Spear to PIERCE the enemies + being able to catch fish with it, but it dies and she gets fish meat instead of alive creature(no Wobster, fish for Fireproof song, Crabby Hermit or Shark Boi abuse)

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Stop right there, random Wigfrid cinematic encounter to remember how cöol she is!

Yes shes fighting newspapers, but HÖW EPIC IT IS? Her whole house is so detailed, with many valkyrie stuff and her own merch. Also on 2:00 minute we can hear her leitmotif clearly!with someone ruining it by throwing another newspaper boss RGHAAA Wish it played somewhere in the game other than beefalo riding theme ♥
You haven't heard her beefalo riding theme? Here it is! 

 


Ok, back to the skilltree--
Headliner Tree:

Rehearsal; She needs a way to gain some inspiration out of combat and prepare for fight (it can be special disk for Gramophone not as skin, with music from her cinematic, without sfx of epic combat with newspapers which I doubt is still saved somewhere after 3 years, her menu theme would fit too!)

  •   What important is make it last longer, so that she can go for daily fights with battlesongs on, and after defeating a boss it goes down too fast, like it was nothing for her so it should last for half a day atleast. Let me explain myself here, jumping on and off a beefalo with skill makes it stay, but putting that much effort "abusing" such stat like inspiration is not gameplay she needs. If anyone is gonna say inspiration out of battle is broken and will lead to afk heal from hitting Punching Bag or Chester - its happening already with beefalo skill.

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More self effects, Battlesong buff could be used and stack up to 3, giving different side effects on each level.

  •  There is no way balancing them for both perfect scenario team and solo, so let her have good stuff on her own, and let multiple Wigfrid benefit from it because there is no other songs to use when every player has 3 slots for them and only 1-2 is needed for fight.

Example: 25% weapon durabillity on first level, 25% armor durabillity on second level, killing a boss repairs all of "Wigfrid Arsenal" by 25% on third level

This can create more ways to fight, and a meaning for Battle Canister to carry all of songs that didnt have any use (especially Affinity ones!)


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More Battle Stingers/Instant songs, a skill where revive song will be at, with new ones ofc;

  • Have you ever had a feeling when looking at full inspiration bar, like "wow it was so hard to get it to 100" but then it just vanishes together with your boring on hit buffs and boss you defeated? There should be something to do with it!

Battle ends, as her perförmance is, curtains fall and warriörs lead höme -

New instant song that uses 95-100 of her inspiration, rewarding everyone nearby with a buff for not that long time, so they can just get to base (examples: small speed boost, dries all wetness off, normalize players temperature, sailing buffs, heal followers including beefalo)
New instant song that uses 50 of her inspiration, battlecry that forces all mobs in a big radius to taunt, while your followers heal a bit, drop agro and return for regroup. 

  • If someone doesn't understand what taunt is - it's the animation the mob plays when agro on something and with certain cooldown after they attack. Easy examples: Nightmare Creature growls, Hound barking, any Clockwork

New instant song that- im out of ideas no one is gonna read this anyway           

Interactions with Charlie Stage from "Little Drama" update, better reward for wasting time...?

  • This thing was forgotten and is not updated for more than a year, she has amazing song for it, such a nice detail but wasted for nothing... Imagine if she could get enemies stronger than 50hp Briar Hounds to drop something instead of infinite supply of fishing rods and free sewing kits, maybe even Volt Goat Horns from it!

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Spoiler

"Yöu inspire me!"  idk I just love her quote on Pile O` Balloons and wanted to show it to you, maybe Wes could be support for others with his skilltree?


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Walküre Tree:

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  • Hmm, I think she likes sailing, probably.. OK hear me out- add sailing skills and mix them with beefalo ones because it fits Valkyrie thematic too well??? Battlesong that buffs sailing power like clothes from pirates, more effective rowing like Wolfgang has, and just stuff with wetness that would synergize with previous skills both Elding Spear and battlesong stacking/levels!

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End(?) of this post
I may add something as I come up with new ideas, or I may not.
Thanks for reading any of it! Of course most likely nothing will change, but-

 Viking never gives up, like öur hope of The Great Gölden Wigfrid Return!
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Happy upcoming new year, have nice holidays`,

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After playing a full 160ish day world with wargathir for her skill tree during beta, I can say for certain that she doesn't need a second look at. Her skill tree is 95% dedicated to fighting in some way, which is how it should be. One of her implicit downsides is that outside of combat, she can't do much different from a wilson unless your making a song with shells. Hell she is even at a disadvantage since her hunger is low, meaning she'd need to take more feed breaks more often, which I think fits the character. Unlike all other combat characters, she is the only one who is dedicated to fighting, which I think helps make her feel distinct from the rest who have combat abilites but some others on the side like Wolfgang's crit finish or Wanda's clocks. Having her skill tree be almost entirely based around fighting makes sense and is thematic with her character. The only thing that is sort of out of place is the beefalo branch, but even then it can make sense if you think about it. It all ties into her playstyle, which is a lot more then I can say about characters like Wormwood who sort of has his all over the place. She doesn't really need other perks to add as filler, this isn't about rounding her out it about expanding what she's already good at. But let's tackle some point you made in your post.

22 minutes ago, RainBO_OM said:

7 skills that you wont need for more than half of your gameplay

This is mostly opinion based, but let's go through each.

Battle Canister: I'd argue is one of Wigfrid's most useful skill picks as it simply is nice to lug your songs around in a condensed format that can be pulled out at a moments notice compared to something like bundling wrap or just carrying them free hand. Even if it's technically a wasted slot if you want to get down to brass tacks, it's such a good QoL that I don't think it should be relegated to "under half of your gameplay".

Revive Song: I mean sure, but the times when you wished you had it must also be considered. even if you don't use it much, having an ace up your sleave never hurt anybody.

Innate Planar Defense: I mean yes it does come into effect until late game, but once you do reach it, it's a permanent upgrade against some of the most challenging mobs in the game. It's something that can only grow over time with value and fits a good "not flashy but useful" perk that most skilltrees, not just in dst but most games that have them, have. It's simply a perk that you would always want once you reached that state of the game as it's literally just free stats at that point.

Helmet Planar Defense: Kina iffy on this one ngl, cause like when I did my testing on a previous post, it did fair pretty feel in terms of negation against a brightshade helm vs a brightshade, but at the same time it also is easy the most throw away-able. On the fence about if this perk is worth it or not (it is to me since I don't like beefalo or battle stingers and play alone since I have the perk point for it, but in terms of a general player, I don't know).

Charged Elding Spear: this upgrade is single handedly the best one in her skill tree. The elding spear at base is already pretty good and by adding another 20 damage onto it, it can tear through non-planar mobs like butter. It also helps how with the dash, you can effectively make it infinite durability if your waiting to spend a little time grinding it on a small bird flock or spider hoard. It even outpaces alignment equipment if you use the enlightened crown, which is noteable since her songs allow her to use it the most effectively over any other character.  You may get it late but dear god it is so worth it.

Battle Saddle: Yeah, no, this one just isn't that good.

Alignment perks: I mean discounting the innate buffs, the songs themselves incentivize the thing she is mostly good at, fighting with multiple people. It could be buffed but I would hesitate to call them not worth taking.

40 minutes ago, RainBO_OM said:

Starting with the main issue: there is no choice in picking skills

There is choice. You demonstrated easily by the fact you chose beefalo skills when I didn't and I took the alignment and innate planar perks while you didn't. The number of perk allocations may allow you to get a majority of some's tree, but there is still plenty of choice in what you decide to allocate your points into.

43 minutes ago, RainBO_OM said:

2 of them being crafts that forces you to re-pick Wigfrid using celestial portal (more than once with 1 skillpoint left)

You don't have to pick them up immediately, and even then, you can still pick them for later. Like Wolfgang's planar damage boosting perks and Woodie's Werebeaver perk to bit harder materials, not every perk is designed around the early game, and your not forced to pick up the those late game perks until you need them. I can understand wanting to have the most potential out the gate, especially if you don't reach the end game content normally, but there no need that you'd need to repick your skill points once you get to the end game. 

47 minutes ago, RainBO_OM said:

1 revive song locked on multiplayer with high price

I mean fair enough, but I wouldn't call it a bad perk to pick, more like situational based on who you play with.

50 minutes ago, RainBO_OM said:

Battlesongs deserves to be more than just stat passives

No not really. Even if they do, which I don't think so, battlesongs being passive effects makes them much more enticing to use for me, especially with the format we have where we can only have a handful at a time. Even if it is kinda boring, it does spice up her combat with decision making and actually makes her combat have a bit more depth with planning with certain gear and songs and things like that. It's one of the reason why I like playing her, and I don't think she'd be as exciting to play if they weren't passive effects.

54 minutes ago, RainBO_OM said:

no one uses Elding Spear without dash skill, right?

I mean I did before I got it. Sure the dash is really, really good, but even without it, it outputs respectable damage that doubles as electric. I actually killed a wet Bee Queen with it without using the dash once because the base weapon itself is just that solid. 

56 minutes ago, RainBO_OM said:

Don't forget shield too, its useless without other upgrades.

I'd argue it's way too situational, even with upgrades.

58 minutes ago, RainBO_OM said:

More inspiration while using spears makes little difference for both daily and boss fights.

Funny thing about this, I think the increased inspiration actually saved my ass while I was diving into the ruins. Basically, I was doing a maze like set piece and I was forced to use battle spears, and the increased inspiration allowed me to get those inklings of health and sanity out of a single fight much easier along with prolonging it's durability then I would've if I had a different weapon. So while it may not be useful in boss fights, I'd argue it's pretty decent in normal fights as it allows to ilk out a song of a single combatent battle which could add up over time, as it did for me in the story above.

1 hour ago, RainBO_OM said:

Elding Spear in early-game has a lot of problems that is caused by how volt goat horns is annoyng to farm and low durabillity of weapon itself. Nobody is using it as intended right now, instead, just abusing small mobs with dash, such as birds, spiders, pigs etc. which causes ankward running around waiting for cooldown to continue "afk" farming meat

Not really. Your playstyle might not fit it, but it doesn't mean it's not filling it's role as an electric weapon. Sure volt goat horns are not exactly common, but that doesn't make it too weird for it's intended use, especially when people were already doing so with the Morning Star. The afk meat farm also sounds dubious as it sounds like it takes up a lot of time for not a lot of gain.

1 hour ago, RainBO_OM said:

Battle Rond is nice to use, doesnt feel overpowered because requires some skill and ping. Though its craft and durabillity can be doubled to decrease amount of beefalo whool and gold in players inventory so they wont need to craft it so often.

I mean I guess, but like I stated previously, there's not a lot of fights where it's overly useful. The most I can think of is dragonfly and the shadow rook, but besides that, the cooldown on equip and the subpar damage makes it really a lackluster choice imo. It's not overpowered because there isn't anything it's overpowering.

1 hour ago, RainBO_OM said:

Hunting Tree

Eh, seems very situational imo. While hunting is a good way to get a burst of food, I wouldn't want to dedicate points to making it easier. There is simply too much meat sources for me to really consider it. Gaining it's aggro upon discovery sounds good for kohlaphants and horrible for vargs and ewcuses. Gaining enough inspiration for 1 song also sounds generally worthless. Unlike inspirations multiplier on battle spears, I can't really take advantage of this out side of the hunt battles, which don't really need them. Making a berry trap sounds interesting, but not useful. Unless your farming chicken dinners, the legs are generally not useful and unless your making an absolute ton of meatballs for some reason, a normal wigfrid is not going to touch food farming, much less a berry bush farm which has fallen off hard in favor of other options. You don't really clairify what Pierce means in this context, so I won't judge it on that one. Spear fishing is kinda meh, unless I want surf and turf or fishsticks for some reason, I'm not really going to be dedicating time to fishing for my food when I can easily kill pigs or frogs or something that doesn't requirement to to go to a pond.

1 hour ago, RainBO_OM said:

She needs a way to gain some inspiration out of combat and prepare for fight

With how fast she can go from 0-100 in some boss fights, not really. It'd be nice, but her skill tree doesn't need it.

1 hour ago, RainBO_OM said:

More self effects, Battlesong buff could be used and stack up to 3, giving different side effects on each level.

Interesting, but I think the skill tree actually benefits from not really messing with the battle songs themselves. Like you said in the next sentence, stacking battlesongs doesn't make much balance sense, and I think the lack of said stacking/any true interaction with the passive battle songs makes Wigfrid much more balanced and shows that not all skill trees will be power creep nightmares.

1 hour ago, RainBO_OM said:

New instant song that uses 95-100 of her inspiration, rewarding everyone nearby with a buff for not that long time, so they can just get to base (examples: small speed boost, dries all wetness off, normalize players temperature, sailing buffs, heal followers including beefalo)

A temp speed buff does sounds quite nice, however I feel like the rest are a bit much. I don't think a skill from the tree should be able to instantly remove all the challenges from all the seasons while also healing them, sounds a bit much even if the intended use is post boss.

1 hour ago, RainBO_OM said:

New instant song that uses 50 of her inspiration, battlecry that forces all mobs in a big radius to taunt, while your followers heal a bit, drop agro and return for regroup. 

I mean that already exists, the one that exists can just be buffed to fit this one instead of making another one that just makes it redundant.

1 hour ago, RainBO_OM said:

This thing was forgotten and is not updated for more than a year,

I mean I get your point, but then again it fulfills it's purpose. It allows for some in game lore, a nice distraction, and a small boon of items every few days. It's may not have had done with it, but that doesn't mean it's bad. Besides that, seeing some unique interaction with the stage and wigfrid like a large varity of things you could get is neat, but not as a skill tree perk but as like an innate thing.

1 hour ago, RainBO_OM said:

Hmm, I think she likes sailing, probably.. OK hear me out- add sailing skills and mix them with beefalo ones because it fits Valkyrie thematic too well??? Battlesong that buffs sailing power like clothes from pirates, more effective rowing like Wolfgang has, and just stuff with wetness that would synergize with previous skills both Elding Spear and battlesong stacking/levels!

I guess. Makes about as much sense as a beefalo, but then again a beefalo is much more generally useful then sailing. You can use a beef for pretty much 90% of your playthrough as you so chose, you sail a much more infinitesimally small fraction of that time, so I'm a bit iffy on the idea of an independent sailing branch.

Overall, this post isn't that bad, but it attempts to do what I feel the Wormwood tree does, injecting things that don't relate to Wigfrid's playstyle. Wigfrid may hunt or fish, but that isn't defining her playstyle. Wigfrid may like sailing but it doesn't define her playstyle. I like the Wigfrid skill tree because it has entirely with what her playstyle is, combat. Instead of throwing in something here and there like how the coaching whistle is for Wolfgang and Grass and Twig picking is for Woodie, her skill tree is focused and makes every skill feel like it has point to be there. Hell, with the new insperation perk added to the beef tree, it now also doesn't feel like it detracts from the overall skilltree. You propose some cool ideas, like an after battle song and stacking battle songs, but I don't feel like they'd really fit with both the balance and gameplay of Wigfrid as a whole.

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1 hour ago, RainBO_OM said:

 Viking never gives up, like öur hope of The Great Gölden Wigfrid Return!

This is really the only point I agree with, regrettably. Wigfrid is in contention for the best fighter in the game. Character all round, I don't think she's the best by any means, but fighter, there's an argument.

There is nothing more that needs to be done, unless the next character reworks decide to eclipse her, which I hope they don't and I hope they aren't going to be as directly combat focused. Not every character needs to be the best fighter in the game.

I mourn that Wigfrid isn't the defacto sailor in the game, and I still do think it's a missed opportunity, but I accept it at this point. Wigfrid has really interesting niches even on the back of a beefalo.

 

The worst part so far of her skill tree that is more or less useless are her affinity songs. They seriously don't need to exist. I stand by my pre skill tree idea that the affinity skill should have been weapons or armor crafts.

Other than that, she's become too much fun and the skill tree has delivered a lot to Wigfrid and it's been a bigger change than her original Rework. It's such an absurd gamechanger and I can't help but think her skill tree has gotten the most love... Tied with willow..

 

Golden Wigfrid definitely needs to make a comeback though. Even if I got an official apology from a developer on it's removal, it's still one of the great tragedies that it was ever removed to begin with.

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