Implementing Stronger Downside

[goatt]

Saw some people mentioning downsides and I think it's indeed a fun idea.

How to build a downside into a skills? Here is my brief brainstorm.

 

1. Forbidden Skills

Forbidden Skills are powerful (possibily affinity) skills come at the cost of a downside. The skills will be more powerful but will always paired with the downside once learned. I imagine such skill will have more impact on playstyle changes. To me, affinity skills are not very powerful or interesting Wilson, Wig and Wolfgang. I chose to learn them not because they are good, but because my OCD forces me to learn the "final" skills. I wish final skills are more powerful, and with downsides to make them more interesting.

 

2. Progressive Downsides

A downside that's associate with one branch of a skill tree. You don't have to choose to learn any skills on the branch. But once learned, the more skills you learn, the more severe the downsides will be.

 

3. Worsened existing weakness or New downsides

What kind of downsides? Should a character always have to have a worsened version of their existing downsides? Or are they allow to have new downsides that fit their lores? I think we don't have to be stuck on worsen the existing downsides. Characters should be allowed to have new downsides.

 

4. Universal Downsides

Can skill trees have a more universally available skills regarding planar system with a universal downsides? For example, a set of universal beefalo skills enhancing riding QoL and planar damage/defense, paired with the downsides of higher hunger drain during beefalo battles for extraordinary beefalo skills. Other universal skills and downsides can be about cooking, farming, chores, friendship vs planar content, etc. Multiple characters can have them.

 

5. Not forced to have downsides

As you probably already know, I don't suggest a downside for the entire skill trees. I think the downside to be place on a particular skill that is powerful and worthy enough to have a downside, or on a branch of skills of such kind.

 

Just a thought. Thanks for reading. What's your idea?

[Antynomity]

Id be happy enough if alignments actually truly mattered, both benefits and downsides wise.

[_zwb]

We already have downsides in Wilson skill tree, that is making him look like a clown more than Wes does.

I don't think Klei would implement any downsides until skill tree rework coming out in 2030 or something, current skill trees straight up remove character downsides and it's likely that they'll follow this trend.

[Frashaw27]

2 hours ago, _zwb said:

current skill trees straight up remove character downsides and it's likely that they'll follow this trend

I mean let's look at each rework to see how they effect the character's downside.

Wilson: Mulligan, didn't have one before, so wasn't one to add. Although he might've gotten one depending on how the upgraded beard insulation works because I remember beard insulation specifically warming your up faster during summer unlike other winter objects, so he might've been nerfed he took that tree.

Willow: This one you do have a case for, but I also think that'd be damn near impossible to expand her fire side of her personality without in some way affecting her downside which requires her to heat up. You are right in this case, but I feel this one is much less egregious as her downside would need a full rework to not be countered by fire.

Wolfgang: None of his skills really help him mange his downside or either Wimpy Form, Might Drain, or Sanity Drain Increase. I guess you could say that the new gembells help him have more options in terms of the best dumbell, but the crafting requirements are the same sans the different gem so I don't see it massively impacting that when the base gembell is already so close to also being an option. The best there is is the pushing the limits extending the duartion before needing to recharge might to not go into normal but that's also not really removing it. And naturally, all of wolfgang's perks, sans the whistle and leg day which only works during normal, only work when Wolfgang is mighty so there's no scenario in which the wimpy form gains any benefit from using them, thus meaning that downside also isn't negated. The only other perk that could be considered removing the downside is automating the gym mini game by that's really grasping at straws.

Woodie: This one is fully countered, I will admit. The lunar alignment is much less terrible in regards to balance removal as prior to moonstorms, your removing a problem that will only crop up for 4ish minutes every 2 hours, and not while your in the caves. Negating that downside is the equivalent of removing Walter's Bee Allergy, outside of 1 specific instance where it's super important, it is mostly a nothing downside that rarely is cropped up for the majority of your gameplay. The removing the penalty from eating the idols is much more important imo as it makes transforming much more of a boon then a choice that has pros and cons, but I feel this was also to the benefit of Woodie. Locking the forms behind a monster meat level stat hit does dissuade people from trying to use them as much as they can. I mean before the skill tree, using any fight with moose immediately locked you with a 20hp hit, if your were at full hp. Unlike something like Wanda's Time Hp or Wormwood's Hp Negation which forces you to plan around it, the idol stat hits and detransform starvation were minor annoyances rather then true downsides. Yes it was removed, but this case was more trimming the fat then an act to try and remove a character defining features, but again I will concede that it does help your idea of downside removal.

Wigfrid: Not in the slightest. None of her skills touch her inability to eat non-meats or touched her lack of any skills that aren't combat related. The most she has on the latter front is a longer beef ride timer, but beyond that none of her downsides, whatever implicit or explicit, were touched by her tree.

Wormwood: This one wasn;t really touched, not in a meaningful way atleast. His downside of not being able to be healed with foods still persists, no matter what skills he has and is not altered in anyway. His options of healing have expanded with Compost wrap now being faster and photosynthesis giving a painfully slow regen, and only while blooming. Yeah this downside isn't really negated at all, his passive healing is just too low to say that imo.

So 2/6 character's had their downsides removed. It certainly is happening, but I don't agree with your claim that all skill trees are doing this, nor will a majority of future ones include things that remove them.

[_zwb]

6 minutes ago, Frashaw27 said:

your claim that all skill trees are doing this,

I didn't claim this

[arubaro]

2 hours ago, Frashaw27 said:

I mean let's look at each rework to see how they effect the character's downside.

Wilson: Mulligan, didn't have one before, so wasn't one to add. Although he might've gotten one depending on how the upgraded beard insulation works because I remember beard insulation specifically warming your up faster during summer unlike other winter objects, so he might've been nerfed he took that tree.

Willow: This one you do have a case for, but I also think that'd be damn near impossible to expand her fire side of her personality without in some way affecting her downside which requires her to heat up. You are right in this case, but I feel this one is much less egregious as her downside would need a full rework to not be countered by fire.

Wolfgang: None of his skills really help him mange his downside or either Wimpy Form, Might Drain, or Sanity Drain Increase. I guess you could say that the new gembells help him have more options in terms of the best dumbell, but the crafting requirements are the same sans the different gem so I don't see it massively impacting that when the base gembell is already so close to also being an option. The best there is is the pushing the limits extending the duartion before needing to recharge might to not go into normal but that's also not really removing it. And naturally, all of wolfgang's perks, sans the whistle and leg day which only works during normal, only work when Wolfgang is mighty so there's no scenario in which the wimpy form gains any benefit from using them, thus meaning that downside also isn't negated. The only other perk that could be considered removing the downside is automating the gym mini game by that's really grasping at straws.

Woodie: This one is fully countered, I will admit. The lunar alignment is much less terrible in regards to balance removal as prior to moonstorms, your removing a problem that will only crop up for 4ish minutes every 2 hours, and not while your in the caves. Negating that downside is the equivalent of removing Walter's Bee Allergy, outside of 1 specific instance where it's super important, it is mostly a nothing downside that rarely is cropped up for the majority of your gameplay. The removing the penalty from eating the idols is much more important imo as it makes transforming much more of a boon then a choice that has pros and cons, but I feel this was also to the benefit of Woodie. Locking the forms behind a monster meat level stat hit does dissuade people from trying to use them as much as they can. I mean before the skill tree, using any fight with moose immediately locked you with a 20hp hit, if your were at full hp. Unlike something like Wanda's Time Hp or Wormwood's Hp Negation which forces you to plan around it, the idol stat hits and detransform starvation were minor annoyances rather then true downsides. Yes it was removed, but this case was more trimming the fat then an act to try and remove a character defining features, but again I will concede that it does help your idea of downside removal.

Wigfrid: Not in the slightest. None of her skills touch her inability to eat non-meats or touched her lack of any skills that aren't combat related. The most she has on the latter front is a longer beef ride timer, but beyond that none of her downsides, whatever implicit or explicit, were touched by her tree.

Wormwood: This one wasn;t really touched, not in a meaningful way atleast. His downside of not being able to be healed with foods still persists, no matter what skills he has and is not altered in anyway. His options of healing have expanded with Compost wrap now being faster and photosynthesis giving a painfully slow regen, and only while blooming. Yeah this downside isn't really negated at all, his passive healing is just too low to say that imo.

So 2/6 character's had their downsides removed. It certainly is happening, but I don't agree with your claim that all skill trees are doing this, nor will a majority of future ones include things that remove them.

i really hope these are exceptions

[mkemal23]

6 hours ago, _zwb said:

We already have downsides in Wilson skill tree, that is making him look like a clown more than Wes does.

[-Variant]

9 hours ago, _zwb said:

skill tree rework

Scariest 3 words ever.

The cycle. It never ends.

[arubaro]

57 minutes ago, -Variant said:

Scariest 3 words ever.

The cycle. It never ends.

i don't want it neither but i rather prefer polished things rather than things that could be cooler if implemented in a better way

i wish klei takes a break on new content to revisit moon island tab, moon storms and skill trees. Is like they add layer and layer of content on top of each other without much cohesion or developing