Wigfrid vs Wendy as Beefalo riders suggestions and thoughts.

[Gashzer]

Right now with a war saddle (+16) , noble steed 3 (+10 planar) and an ornery beefalo (50); wigfrid can reach 76 damage. Pretty good you may think.

Wendy with war saddle and ornery is 66 however with petal buff from abigail (x1.54) ends up with a total of 102 rounded damage.

Wigfrid is the beefalo combat character now so there being a 26 damage difference between wendy and wigfrid is a wee bit insane. Im not saying Wigfrid should be doing 100 damage with a beefalo at all times however during the taming process a beefalo doesnt feel any stronger with Wigfrid compared to other characters, it still takes 3 hits to kill a spider/bee for example.

To solve this problem improving noble steed 3 to +16 planar damage will allow you to kill spiders and bees in 2 hits from the very beginning of beefalo taming just like with her battle spear. 

Also improving her battle saddle damage from 5 to 10 and giving it planar defence would help round out beefalo combat, the damage increase would only be for Wigfrid so other characters remain with 5 damage, planar defence is for everyone.

Now with battle saddle and ornery beef wigfrid will have the same damage as she has currently with war saddle (76) but with much better defences. I believe this would make Wigfrid a competitive beefalo rider against wendy.

Yup thats all.

[Yuuko]

2 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Wigfrid is the beefalo combat character now

I think this is the problem that should be fixed instead.

[Gashzer]

Just now, Shosuko said:

I think this is the problem that should be fixed instead.

Well no other character fits the bill and i quite like the music and battle saddle aesthetic. We might as well try to make it work lol

Klei just needs to increase damage for Wigfrid to separate her out abit more.

[Swiyss]

9 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I think this is the problem that should be fixed instead.

yeah I have to disagree with you here. tell me why not? just thematically? and if in practice it doesn't work, what's blocking them from making it work?

[Yuuko]

24 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Well no other character fits the bill and i quite like the music and battle saddle aesthetic. We might as well try to make it work lol

Klei just needs to increase damage for Wigfrid to separate her out abit more.

idk my biggest fear is that if Wig gets a beefalo tree, then we're not getting other qol / buffs for beefs to take them to end game for other characters "b/c wig is the beef character."

But lets close our eyes and pretend that won't happen...  I don't think Wig is far off.  The main anti-synergy is that Wig deals a LOT more damage than a beef.  Really if we address that we're fine.

 

Perks:

Beef taming time reduced by 15%

While riding she generates inspiration

Wig attacks with her weapon from the back of a beefalo.  Beefalo damage does not apply.  Her spear dash becomes an AOE lunge attack in front of her.  Her shield block becomes stronger attack that stuns non-boss mobs.

Her saddle gives as much speed as a gossamer saddle with some armor but no damage - b/c she doesn't need it.

 

No planar b/c she just uses her weapon.  If she has planar there, then she has planar.

Make sure that her attacking with a weapon does not count towards ornery tendency.  While taming she would want to kite and fight, but not tank and trade so she can get a rider.  Rider + gossamer saddle speed (her wings do look cool) while swinging with her own weapon and she'd be great.  Gaining inspiration is a nice perk while riding b/c a lot of her spells are harder to use outside of a boss fight.  This would make them a bit easier to use in smaller scale skirmishes.

[Gashzer]

53 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

idk my biggest fear is that if Wig gets a beefalo tree, then we're not getting other qol / buffs for beefs to take them to end game for other characters "b/c wig is the beef character."

But lets close our eyes and pretend that won't happen...  I don't think Wig is far off.  The main anti-synergy is that Wig deals a LOT more damage than a beef.  Really if we address that we're fine.

Tbh thats exactly whats happening me thinks. But beefalo riding as a mechanic feels complete and its very powerful right now. How much more power/Qol can you add? Wigfrid has added commander helm to reduce knockback and both war saddle/battle saddle allow you to remount in combat so even the new knockdown effect bosses have are not as deadly now and have a pretty straight forward counter.

Wigfrid is the answer to giving planar damage for beefalos.

But yeah Wigfrid doing more damage on foot is a problem. Beef shouldnt do as much damage as Wigfrids charged lightning spear but it needs to be competitive with atleast the battle spear when the beef is at taming stage and scale up better with the battle saddle. 

[Mysterious box]

 

51 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

idk my biggest fear is that if Wig gets a beefalo tree, then we're not getting other qol / buffs for beefs to take them to end game for other characters "b/c wig is the beef character."

It's not like we'd get a heavily requested feature added just to be locked behind a character you know...oh...

 

[Swiyss]

52 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

idk my biggest fear is that if Wig gets a beefalo tree, then we're not getting other qol / buffs for beefs to take them to end game for other characters "b/c wig is the beef character."

But lets close our eyes and pretend that won't happen...  I don't think Wig is far off.  The main anti-synergy is that Wig deals a LOT more damage than a beef.  Really if we address that we're fine.

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right!

That's why, I think that making her the one that GIVES easy access to faster beefalo taming/The one who creates beefalo stations that allow crafting of new saddles/The one who when on a beefalo, buffs the team if they also have one with either PLANAR damage or regular damage.

They already went with the beefalo idea. removing it is a bad idea now I think.

and you could change to wig, craft all the items/buffs, change back and boom, everyone can do beefalo the same if they also want to, but she will be slighty better on one. not TOO much better.

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

I think this is the problem that should be fixed instead.

Uhm yeah about that…

skip to 0:46, the character first seen introducing us to Beefalo being ridden as a mount is, you guessed it.. Wigfrid!

Now that said: The skill tree sucks and could use some refinements, such as Wigfrid Gaining Inspiration slowly just while on a battle mount, or getting a temporary boost in damage when dismounting. It would also probably help a bit if Wigfrid could craft a new easier to craft version of a Beefalo Brush to help speed up their domesticating process even faster.

[Swiyss]

7 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

 

It's not like we'd get a heavily requested feature added just to be locked behind a character you know...oh...

 

I don't understand, why so many people have concerns about other characters recieving these features, just change to them, use the feature, and then change back.

imagine if everyone had every feature? how boring it would be. Leave wigfrid and wormwood's uniquenesess alone.

[Yuuko]

45 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Wigfrid is the answer to giving planar damage for beefalos.

 

This is one of the main reasons I was always against planar.  It restricts options.  If we only give planar through playing wig then that's the game.  If you like beefalo I hope you also like the only character allowed to use them once the rifts are open...

I really REALLY hope that is not the direction Klei is going, bc it seems like the absolute worst option period, but seeing the skills on Wig...  its just bad news.  She is one of the worst characters mechanically to put this on - and as much as it works thematically, people play mechanically.  This will just make them unused perks that prevent others from enjoying beefs for what they actually do.

33 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

That's why, I think that making her the one that GIVES easy access to faster beefalo taming/The one who creates beefalo stations that allow crafting of new saddles/The one who when on a beefalo, buffs the team if they also have one with either PLANAR damage or regular damage.

 

I guess I haven't tested - can other people put her saddles on beef and ride them?  Does it work without her there?

Still a bad idea to give Wig the planar.  It should be attached to the saddle so every player can use it.  Planar is a hard-line of what is worth using or not in the "end game."  Its why I hate it so much.  Things need planar now, and if Wig is the only person who gets planar on a beef then beef become worthless.  Why would anyone else be riding a beef into battle if they don't have planar?

[Swiyss]

7 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

If you like beefalo I hope you also like the only character allowed to use them once the rifts are open...

What's the problem with that?

 

7 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

guess I haven't tested - can other people put her saddles on beef and ride them?  Does it work without her there?

I'm not entirely sure, but it should imo.

7 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

a bad idea to give Wig the planar.

Agree. The saddle should hold the planar

Man, the Chinese Love wigfrid's skill tree and her idea. But we only watch them on huya or bilibili. Which most of us will never see their opinion

I've talked with some of them on twitch, and they are BEGGING for some horse riding mechanics for Valkyrie aesthetics.

Some also like the grass gator riding as a high risk high reward mechanic to sail in water, and if they fall, they drown.

[Gashzer]

2 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

This is one of the main reasons I was always against planar.  It restricts options.  If we only give planar through playing wig then that's the game.  If you like beefalo I hope you also like the only character allowed to use them once the rifts are open...

Restricting options is a good thing, makes it so each character feels different from each other. Imagine we got a general use planar war saddle which protected you from knockdown. You could quite literally tame an ornery as every character to win the game, every character would play the same because we could choose the same option everytime. Wormwood has unique buffs with certain planar equipment... maxwell also gets buffed using void gear... both these characters excel with different gear, this is what we need! 

Beefalo should be weaker than planar gear always for all characters apart from wigfrid, she is the one character that should excel with an ornery beefalo in the late game post-rift.

[Swiyss]

5 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Restricting options is a good thing, makes it so each character feels different from each other. Imagine we got a general use planar war saddle which protected you from knockdown. You could quite literally tame an ornery as every character to win the game, every character would play the same because we could choose the same option everytime. Wormwood has unique buffs with certain planar equipment... maxwell also gets buffed using void gear... both these characters excel with different gear, this is what we need! 

Beefalo should be weaker than planar gear always for all characters apart from wigfrid, she is the one character that should excel with an ornery beefalo in the late game post-rift.

I'm probably not gonna play Wigfrid on release or even here on beta, but I would find it sooooo cool to have people around me running as a team with a bunch of beefalos all following wigfrid, with the song playing in the background, saying they are preparing for a boss, and handling me my own beefalo for the battle. Jesus that would be AMAZING.

And in the battle she sings to buff us, one of us die, and now she revives them with the power of thunder, soo cool.

Although I do think the revive mechanic SHOULD be nerfed to 2 or 3 players per use. Or even 1 only, 1 per cast would be great.

[arubaro]

50 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

I don't understand, why so many people have concerns about other characters recieving these features, just change to them, use the feature, and then change back.

imagine if everyone had every feature? how boring it would be. Leave wigfrid and wormwood's uniquenesess alone.

the problem i have with that is that i only chose that perk when i want to craft plants and right after i come back to my daily skill tree path. This is specially bad because to reach certain perks you need to invest points in that branch 

why would i have 4 points dedicated to beefalo taming+saddle if i already tammed a beefalo and crafted the saddle? 

[Gashzer]

9 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

I'm probably not gonna play Wigfrid on release or even here on beta, but I would find it sooooo cool to have people around me running as a team with a bunch of beefalos all following wigfrid, with the song playing in the background, saying they are preparing for a boss, and handling me my own beefalo for the battle. Jesus that would be AMAZING.

And in the battle she sings to buff us, one of us die, and now she revives them with the power of thunder, soo cool.

Although I do think the revive mechanic SHOULD be nerfed to 2 or 3 players per use. Or even 1 only, 1 per cast would be great.

Yeahhhh 100% agree, Klei really have nailed the aesthetic of taming a beefalo as Wigfrid, gonna recruit an army of pigs with battle helms and me as the commander leading the charge with my battle mount... so cool and fun! 

Once they tweak the damage values it will be perfect. People are getting too caught up in the numbers and meta playstyles. What attracted me to DST was the awesome artstyle and aesthetics, to me a war mount just fits Wigfrid so well.

Screw the fact she is stronger on foot i dont care, gimme that sweet roleplay lol

Edit: followers should heal 10 hp with the heart song not 1 hp.

[Yuuko]

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Restricting options is a good thing

Not its not.  When I get people to play DST with me its usually driven by a desire to explore and open ended world where they can choose many different things to do.  Character choice getting skill trees enhances this because you can say "I want to be a fire mage" or whatever, but beefalo are not part of any character.  When people learn that they can ride beef they want to do it.  Its very cute riding around as a bunch of beefalo soldiers.  Telling them "well actually Wig is the character for beef" is bad.  Its not part of her kit the way Woby is for Walter.  Especially because what a beef does is so contrary to what Wig wants vs everyone else.  She is the least likely character to want a beef with their default mechanics.

What a beef is should be enhanced going into end game.  It doesn't matter if anyone can tame a beef to get a bit of planar damage, because right now they're all using BS swords for the same thing...  The homogeny is killing me, we need more options not less.  More options can come from character choice, but things like taming beef, or using boats, etc are NOT character options.

[Swiyss]

7 minutes ago, arubaro said:

the problem i have with that is that i only chose that perk when i want to craft plants and right after i come back to my daily skill tree path. This is specially bad because to reach certain perks you need to invest points in that branch 

why would i have 4 points dedicated to beefalo taming+saddle if i already tammed a beefalo and crafted the saddle? 

The skillsets themselves are detrimental.

7 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Telling them "well actually Wig is the character for beef" is bad.

So what's a better character that fits BEEFALOS better?

We need some beefalo tweaking too.

We also need to prepare them for planar damage and defense.

[Yuuko]

7 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

The skillsets themselves are detrimental.

So what's a better character that fits BEEFALOS better?

We need some beefalo tweaking too.

We also need to prepare them for planar damage and defense.

Put new saddles in the bsmithy and plinth.  Beefs do not have to be for any character, just like building a bunny armor to fight bee queen doesn't have to be for any character.

I don't mind the skills I posted above, and having Wig be the source of planar saddles.  But Wig should not be the only one to get planar for beefs.  If nothing else, and Wig absolutely MUST be the source of this, put planar on the saddles and let everyone use them.

Character swapping is already a hot topic - many people, me included, feel really off about swapping characters for such purposes...  Its a big gray area that I would hate to see officially endorsed as the intended way to play the game.

[Mike23Ua]

2 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Not its not.  When I get people to play DST with me its usually driven by a desire to explore and open ended world where they can choose many different things to do.  Character choice getting skill trees enhances this because you can say "I want to be a fire mage" or whatever, but beefalo are not part of any character.  When people learn that they can ride beef they want to do it.  Its very cute riding around as a bunch of beefalo soldiers.  Telling them "well actually Wig is the character for beef" is bad.  Its not part of her kit the way Woby is for Walter.  Especially because what a beef does is so contrary to what Wig wants vs everyone else.  She is the least likely character to want a beef with their default mechanics.

What a beef is should be enhanced going into end game.  It doesn't matter if anyone can tame a beef to get a bit of planar damage, because right now they're all using BS swords for the same thing...  The homogeny is killing me, we need more options not less.  More options can come from character choice, but things like taming beef, or using boats, etc are NOT character options.

It’s not about who is best with a Beefalo, it’s about giving players a skill tree who tells someone who DOESNT come to these forums or read Wikipages or watch annoying streamer videos that they CAN Tame a Beefalo & ride it around.

Every character in the entire game has always always ALWAYS had perks that have been sort of like I guess you can say this “Short Cut” to content that through normal gameplay progress they could unlock or obtain eventually. 

For example- Wortox has the soul hop which is basically just a less expensive version of that late game teleporting device.

Walani had surfboards which was basically just an early game boat to get players out exploring the ocean in SW.

Wormwoods skill tree will teach the player about Mushroom Planters (something I did not even know was a thing you could do in the game until I saw he had an entire skill tree dedicated to it) and it rewards those WW players with faster access to it by letting them cut living logs to replenish them from their own Health & Live indefinitely on redcaps.

Woodies Skill tree will now introduce the players to early game versions of walking canes and head armor.

Even Wilson’s skill tree teaches a new player the importance of a torch and all that transmutation stuff.

Why can’t Wigfrids skill tree tell players “hey cool I can tame and ride this thing and equip it with Armor?”

THAT is the part of the puzzle that’s missing to you, because your only concern is Efficiency & rather or not its character locked.

[WenericMember]

5 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Uhm yeah about that…

skip to 0:46, the character first seen introducing us to Beefalo being ridden as a mount is, you guessed it.. Wigfrid!

Now that said: The skill tree sucks and could use some refinements, such as Wigfrid Gaining Inspiration slowly just while on a battle mount, or getting a temporary boost in damage when dismounting. It would also probably help a bit if Wigfrid could craft a new easier to craft version of a Beefalo Brush to help speed up their domesticating process even faster.

Really hope this indicates that Wendy will get telltale Heart related perks.

In general I hope Wendy's skill tree enables her to perform a "combat support" role - better revives, hex, AOE to counter hordes. She's already halfway there butit'd be such a unique role for her compared to the other combat characters.

[Cassielu]

5 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Why can’t Wigfrids skill tree tell players “hey cool I can tame and ride this thing and equip it with Armor?”

Crafting menu has told everyone they can do that.

Wigfrid and Planar built on that and, just like a killjoy, told everyone "you're never going to get it right. This thing won't make you better at fighting in the post-rift world unless you play as Wigfrid. It's not worthy. Don't do it." It actually discourages other characters from trying different strategies.

[Gashzer]

10 hours ago, Cassielu said:

Wigfrid and Planar built on that and, just like a killjoy, told everyone "you're never going to get it right. This thing won't make you better at fighting in the post-rift world unless you play as Wigfrid. It's not worthy. Don't do it." It actually discourages other characters from trying different strategies.

To counter your point i can reword your arguement this way "dont try different strategies, taming a ornery beefalo will solve all your problems no matter what character you play, character choice means nothing, just play your main and even if you change characters just do the same thing over again with no change to gameplay" this is what would happen if planar and wigfrids new beefalo skills didnt exist.

Having the same choice is bad. You dont want different strategies you just want the same strategy for all characters and thats just boring.

[Cassielu]

3 hours ago, Gashzer said:

To counter your point i can reword your arguement this way "dont try different strategies, taming a ornery beefalo will solve all your problems no matter what character you play, character choice means nothing, just play your main and even if you change characters just do the same thing over again with no change to gameplay" this is what would happen if planar and wigfrids new beefalo skills didnt exist.

Having the same choice is bad. You dont want different strategies you just want the same strategy for all characters and thats just boring.

This is a kinda slippery slope. Wigfrid's skill tree is different from any of our existing characters interacting with beefalo.

 

Wendy and Wes gains more from Beefalo, not because they can buff beefalo, but because they have less damage.

Warly, Walter and Wormwood gains more from Beefalo, not because they can buff beefalo, but because they were afraid of getting hurt.

Maxwell gains more from Beefalo, not because he can buff beefalo, but because he has the ability to sacrifice protection in exchange for Shadow Golem damage.

Wanda gains less from Beefalo, not because she has debuff for beefalo, but because she has high damage and the ability to faster travel.

 

That's what we already have. The true strategy. By contrast, Wigfrid's beefalo skilltree is about as boring as being taught how to use toilet as if player is a three-year-old child. And Planar this stupid being that quickly gets them replaced with boring things like Wigfrid because they can't provide the damned planar damage aka totally a number with different variable name.