Beefalo problem. And the idea behind the skill tree.

[Swiyss]

Ok, why would Klei put beefalo skills in Wigfrid's skill tree? I have a few answers.

1. They want to make you play Wigfrid if you wanna rush a beefalo.

2. They don't want other characters on a beefalo; rather make them underperform compared to her.

3. They simply want the aesthetic of a warrior on a horse.

For all these points, the question is, why? Why put a beefalo tree if it's not powerful enough to convince me to use it? It doesn't even have enough synergies to make it worth it.

Just gives us a powerful synergy with beefalo to convince people to stop domesticating them on other characters. Or even make the beefalo not that strong; cause right now it is countering too many weaknesses of some characters, making the entire character design useless and flawed.

Ex: Maxwell having no downsides cause cows tank for him is a flawed design.

Make the cow take damage based on characters health bar. Making Wigfrid and Wolfgang stronger (which is literally their intention as a character) on a beefalo than Maxwell or Wes for example (literally since birth these characters are meant to be hard to play, so use your creativity accordingly Klei). And both already have different upsides also that are completely ENOUGH based on their identity.

IF the intention IS to counter the character weaknesses by taming cows, then either change the taming process to be quicker on every character and EVEN quicker on Wigfrid; or buff Wigfrids damage on a beefalo based on her saddle. And nerf damage or speed cause the tanking is already too ridiculous. The thing regens even like WTF is the point of having a health bar for **** sake.

ADD MORE SADDLES. We got a hundred weapons in the game but only a few saddles, just add more saddles to make each vary in style and fix some of the problems.

Now I think that there should ALWAYS be a stronger alternative in the game. If I wanna eat only veggies and play in the swamp I play Wurt. If I wanna focus on speedrunning bosses as fast as possible I can choose Wigfrid or Wolfgang. If I wanna clear the early game surface and caves and focus on resource gathering I can play almost any other character. If I want a different experience of gameplay and strategies I can play Wortox, Wanda, Wormwood, Walter ETC.. you get the point. But why should my choice of taking a cow with me counter all of the characters flaws? It's like being able to teleport from LA to Spain in a second as opposed to taking a normal flight. It's like GODMODE. It feels like cheating. Most of the game nowadays feels like cheating. And don't get me started on "just play Wes" cause the character itself is meant to be a challenge, and I don't want a challenge anymore, I just don't wanna feel like I'm missing out on stupid overpowered potential of having a beefalo while playing my character the way it should be.

Wormwood got the bramble husk dps added to his kit + the brightshade vines. But both are balanced based on the moment you get them. Even if he's not a fighting character, he can benefit from added dmg in the late game.

But now if I wanna counter the whole idea of not being able to heal from normal foods just by jumping on a beefalo that just ruins the entire point of the character. IT SHOULD BE AN ALTERNATIVE, NOT A PERMANENT UPGRADE. And don't get me started on taming beefalos being hard, because it is NOT. And once one is tamed you're set for the entire game past day 23ish. I dont want the taming to be harder either, I just dont wanna see the whole character balance and design being thrown away simply by riding a supid cow. 

Making it hard to tame them is not an excuse for the flaw of them countering the chars weaknesses entirely just by existing. If you're going to make it op like that, then just give me a wagstaff weapon that deals 1000 damage a hit but costs 500000 gold nuggets to craft.

[Cruvimaster]

I confess that I was disappointed when I saw everything I imagined for Beefalo to be in Wigfrid's hands.

[Yuuko]

18 minutes ago, xDpromonick9 said:

3. They simply want the aesthetic of a warrior on a horse.

 

I'm pretty sure it was simply this.  They caught the idea of a Valkyrie riding a mount and decided to throw it in.  The skills are all pretty worthless.  There is no reason you'd want Wig to fight on a beefalo.  Maybe get a rider + gossamer saddle sure, but none of her perks help her do that.

Beefalo counter a lot of downsides BUT they are a heavy investment and a constant risk b/c they are perma death.  Their damage is pretty low too.

[Cruvimaster]

There should be an exclusive skill tree for Beefalo and never for one character. This is a mistake.

[Swiyss]

Just now, Cruvimaster said:

I confess that I was disappointed when I saw everything I imagined for Beefalo to be in Wigfrid's hands.

I think is healthy to have 1 character in control of it. Cause if not, then we're gonna have Maxwell case where you might as well give him 1000 hp since every single person I know that plays Maxwell just domesticate a beefalo. Boom now you got walking cane speed with insane health and spear damage.

[Gashzer]

Wigfrid is a master of arms providing weapons and armour to others. The beefalo skills fit her gameplay style as a jack of all trade combat expert also being able to craft a saddle for other players to use just like her helm and spear currently.

Fits her lore too.

I think other characters should be able to use the shield just not block with it.

[Swiyss]

5 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I'm pretty sure it was simply this.  They caught the idea of a Valkyrie riding a mount and decided to throw it in.  The skills are all pretty worthless.  There is no reason you'd want Wig to fight on a beefalo.  Maybe get a rider + gossamer saddle sure, but none of her perks help her do that.

Beefalo counter a lot of downsides BUT they are a heavy investment and a constant risk b/c they are perma death.  Their damage is pretty low too.

Yeah but I can argue that a weapons that deals 5000 damage but only unlocks after killing the celestial champion 51 times and the fuelweaver 25 is worth because of the "heavy investment".  See? This is how you sound.

[Yuuko]

3 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Wigfrid is a master of arms providing weapons and armour to others. The beefalo skills fit her gameplay style as a jack of all trade combat expert also being able to craft a saddle for other players to use just like her helm and spear currently.

Fits her lore too.

I think other characters should be able to use the shield just not block with it.

Not even remotely - nothing about Wigfrid - being a method actor who has taken her role as a combat monkey too far - gives her any business being "the mount character" especially considering using a mount - even with these new skills - is pretty much a straight NERF to her character.  Anyone who wants to play Wig on a mount for combat should really just be playing someone else.  None of her beef skills serve any purpose except to be there "b/c"

Her theme is not to provide others with equipment - hence her new spear, better helm, and shield are all exclusive to her.  As are her odd perks for bonus ride time and ??planar damage?? on beef? wtf is that even...

3 minutes ago, xDpromonick9 said:

Yeah but I can argue that a weapons that deals 5000 damage but only unlocks after killing the celestial champion 51 times and the fuelweaver 25 is worth because of the "heavy investment".  See? This is how you sound.

Unlock after killing celestial champion?  eh idk.  Unlock after spending 20+ days constantly dumping sticks into it?  Maybe.

I mean beef don't do 5000 damage so its not the most apt analogy.  Their damage is kinda low unless you anim cancel, and even then you can just anim cancel with better weapons then they are to get more deeps.  Maxwell is not greatly enhanced by beefalo's health - b/c his shadow prison and duelists mean he is rarely close enough to get hit.

[Swiyss]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

Wigfrid is a master of arms providing weapons and armour to others. The beefalo skills fit her gameplay style as a jack of all trade combat expert also being able to craft a saddle for other players to use just like her helm and spear currently.

Fits her lore too.

I think other characters should be able to use the shield just not block with it.

Honestly I like the way she is now. But if normal saddles are better then her saddle, then whats the point? Either have her craft 2 saddles, one for speed and another for damage and nerf glossamer and war saddles or just buff the existing one to have both effects. The idea is, what is the actual point of it?

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

Not even remotely - nothing about Wigfrid - being a method actor who has taken her role as a combat monkey too far - gives her any business being "the mount character" especially considering using a mount - even with these new skills - is pretty much a straight NERF to her character.  Anyone who wants to play Wig on a mount for combat should really just be playing someone else.  None of her beef skills serve any purpose except to be there "b/c"

Unlock after killing celestial champion?  eh idk.  Unlock after spending 20+ days constantly dumping sticks into it?  Maybe.

I mean beef don't do 5000 damage so its not the most apt analogy.  Their damage is kinda low unless you anim cancel, and even then you can just anim cancel with better weapons then they are to get more deeps.  Maxwell is not greatly enhanced by beefalo's health - b/c his shadow prison and duelists mean he is rarely close enough to get hit.

How can you argue that maxwell is not benefiting from riding a beefalo? He has HALF the health of everyone in the game duh. He is benefiting 2x more than any other character in the game.

[Gashzer]

2 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Not even remotely - nothing about Wigfrid - being a method actor who has taken her role as a combat monkey too far - gives her any business being "the mount character" especially considering using a mount - even with these new skills - is pretty much a straight NERF to her character.  Anyone who wants to play Wig on a mount for combat should really just be playing someone else.  None of her beef skills serve any purpose except to be there "b/c"

Absolutely no other character fits the bill. No other character can be related to beefalos. Klei clearly dont want to buff beefalos with a planar saddle so wigfrid fills this niche now.

[Yuuko]

Just now, Gashzer said:

Absolutely no other character fits the bill. No other character can be related to beefalos. Klei clearly dont want to buff beefalos with a planar saddle so wigfrid fills this niche now.

No character - not even Wig - can be related to beefs.  This is why beefs need a character agnostic path to planar like a new saddle from the bsmithy and plinth.

Nothing about Wigfrid is good on a beef, even with the new perks.  They are completely unnecessary and ineffectual. 

[Swiyss]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

Absolutely no other character fits the bill. No other character can be related to beefalos. Klei clearly dont want to buff beefalos with a planar saddle so wigfrid fills this niche now.

True. And why can't we have her being the only one in a beefalo? Just straight up rework beefalo KLEI. Just switch the numbers or discourage people from using beefalos in every single character. Beefalos are a flawed design by nature. They are too op and counter tok many characters weaknesses. Some damage HAS to go to the character.

[arubaro]

why people are so mad because a character got ignorable perks for beefalos? do you want it for characters that already benefits from them to the point of nullifying their downsides? that is what wouldnt make sense

[Swiyss]

2 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

No character - not even Wig - can be related to beefs.  This is why beefs need a character agnostic path to planar like a new saddle from the bsmithy and plinth.

Nothing about Wigfrid is good on a beef, even with the new perks.  They are completely unnecessary and ineffectual. 

They gotta change the way beefalo works to fit each character indentity instead of straight up cancelling their perks.

Just now, arubaro said:

why people are so mad because a character got ignorable perks for beefalos? do you want it for characters that already benefits from them to the point of nullifying their downsides? that is what wouldnt make sense

I want the beefalos perks on wigfrid to actually be good and an alternative. And I want beefalos to be useless or weak without a wigfrid on a team, they need to be used for either moving the pieces or just exploration. They deal too much damage after domesticating it. Make her neccessary for an optimized beefalo run and boom, fixed.

[Yuuko]

6 minutes ago, xDpromonick9 said:

They gotta change the way beefalo works to fit each character indentity instead of straight up cancelling their perks.

Nah, how they are now is fine.  75 health is not the dramatic downside you make it out to be.  Night armors give him 1500 effective health, +50% MORE TANKY than beefalo.

Besides when you can shadow prison even bosses and have duelists do dps you are basically WFH Maxwell already, being on a beef is inconsequential. 

Beefalo doesn't really make Maxwell better, it is just a thing he can do - compared to characters like Wig, Wolf, and Wanda who want to be off the beefalo to do the combat themselves b/c they have good direct damage perks.

Beefalo damage is pretty bad unless you anim cancel, but if you cancel that you can cancel any better weapon for more dps then that even.  Wendy is the only exception to this, but even using Beef she just reaches standard combat-character tier damage and Abi is not easy to use in a lot of bosses...  Its really not OP.

[Swiyss]

3 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Nah, how they are now is fine.  75 health is not the dramatic downside you make it out to be.  Night armors give him 1500 effective health, +50% MORE TANKY than beefalo.

Besides when you can shadow prison even bosses and have duelists do dps you are basically WFH Maxwell already, being on a beef is inconsequential. 

Beefalo doesn't really make Maxwell better, it is just a thing he can do - compared to characters like Wig, Wolf, and Wanda who want to be off the beefalo to do the combat themselves b/c they have good direct damage perks.

Yeah you're trolling.

[Yuuko]

3 minutes ago, xDpromonick9 said:

Yeah you're trolling.

How?  75 health with 95% damage reduction = 1500 effective health.  That is +50% more than beefalo has.  Just stack night armors, they aren't hard to get anymore with replantable reeds, and wiping useless blueprints, statue, and other papers.

Most of Max damage and combat effectiveness comes from his shadow duelists and prison.

The beef is superfluous at that point - Max players do it b/c they can, b/c they feel good on a mount - it is not significantly enhancing Max's game play.

[Mysterious box]

First Wormwood now Wigfrid any bets on the next character to take something that should have gone to everyone? Wait I got it! Winona's skill tree will give access to larger metal chests with higher stack sizes per slot and can't burn.

6 minutes ago, xDpromonick9 said:

Yeah you're trolling.

In what way everything he said was true.

[Swiyss]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

How?  75 health with 95% damage reduction = 1500 effective health.  That is +50% more than beefalo has.

Most of Max damage and combat effectiveness comes from his shadow duelists and prison.

The beef is superfluous at that point - Max players do it b/c they can, b/c they feel good on a mount - it is not significantly enhancing Max's game play.

Look, if you wanna play on top of a beefalo, fine, you do you. You should be able to do it and have fun doing it. But the MOMENT the BEEFALO ITSELF counter the ENTIRE idea of more than 5 CHARACTER IN THE GAME sure we have something wrong. I'm not saying to completely kill beefalos. I just want people to know that they are going to suffer a bit more in tanking if their character has less health than the other, even if you're on a beefalo, wearing armor or kiting enemies. If not, then just give every single character in the game 150 health. Now that doesn't sound doable right? See how the problem lies in he beefalo itself, not the characters? We need a tweak on the beefalo idea. And the skill tree is a good start. And my idea again, is to have wigfrid to be the beefalo leader, and she being the one which can craft the beefalo saddles AND/OR a beefalo station, so if you dont wanna play her ATLEAST she has a meaning existing in the constant like winona does by making the catapults. Beefalos are a flawed design by nature no matter how many people see it. And yes, every single maxwell is playing on a beefalo, every single server has that one guy moving faster than everyone before winter. So YES beefalos are meta, overpowered AND ruin the idea of characters having flaws. We need quick thinking and action as soon as possible.

1 minute ago, xDpromonick9 said:

Look, if you wanna play on top of a beefalo, fine, you do you. You should be able to do it and have fun doing it. But the MOMENT the BEEFALO ITSELF counter the ENTIRE idea of more than 5 CHARACTER IN THE GAME sure we have something wrong. I'm not saying to completely kill beefalos. I just want people to know that they are going to suffer a bit more in tanking if their character has less health than the other, even if you're on a beefalo, wearing armor or kiting enemies. If not, then just give every single character in the game 150 health. Now that doesn't sound doable right? See how the problem lies in he beefalo itself, not the characters? We need a tweak on the beefalo idea. And the skill tree is a good start. And my idea again, is to have wigfrid to be the beefalo leader, and she being the one which can craft the beefalo saddles AND/OR a beefalo station, so if you dont wanna play her ATLEAST she has a meaning existing in the constant like winona does by making the catapults. Beefalos are a flawed design by nature no matter how many people see it. And yes, every single maxwell is playing on a beefalo, every single server has that one guy moving faster than everyone before winter. So YES beefalos are meta, overpowered AND ruin the idea of characters having flaws. We need quick thinking and action as soon as possible.

I ain't biased in anything I do, everything I do is critical thinking, the problem we have is too many people disturbing reality being biased cause they can't think outside the box, and Klei should NOT listen to biased opinions.

[grm9]

6 minutes ago, xDpromonick9 said:

I just want people to know that they are going to suffer a bit more in tanking if their character has less health than the other, even if you're on a beefalo, wearing armor or kiting enemies

max hp doesn't matter btw, since healing is almost instant and can't be interrupted by enemies unless you're stunlocked 

[Yuuko]

9 minutes ago, xDpromonick9 said:

Look, if you wanna play on top of a beefalo, fine, you do you. You should be able to do it and have fun doing it. But the MOMENT the BEEFALO ITSELF counter the ENTIRE idea of more than 5 CHARACTER IN THE GAME sure we have something wrong. I'm not saying to completely kill beefalos. I just want people to know that they are going to suffer a bit more in tanking if their character has less health than the other, even if you're on a beefalo, wearing armor or kiting enemies. If not, then just give every single character in the game 150 health. Now that doesn't sound doable right? See how the problem lies in he beefalo itself, not the characters? We need a tweak on the beefalo idea. And the skill tree is a good start. And my idea again, is to have wigfrid to be the beefalo leader, and she being the one which can craft the beefalo saddles AND/OR a beefalo station, so if you dont wanna play her ATLEAST she has a meaning existing in the constant like winona does by making the catapults. Beefalos are a flawed design by nature no matter how many people see it. And yes, every single maxwell is playing on a beefalo, every single server has that one guy moving faster than everyone before winter. So YES beefalos are meta, overpowered AND ruin the idea of characters having flaws. We need quick thinking and action as soon as possible.

Wig is not a beefalo character.  She has nothing to do with beefalo for most of her game play because dismounting and fighting is strictly superior for her.  Same with Wolfgang - it would be really dumb to get on a beef for combat if you were Wolf or Wig.

The abilities of a beef are nice for anyone for shrugging of attrition damage and for infinite durability weapon - but the tanking and damage dealt are not as good as many characters without beefalo.  If you mount a beef with Wigfrid you are weaker then if you just fight, and no skill tree needs to try and change that.

Most of Wigs beefalo stats don't do anything for other people anyway.  Tame 15% quicker?  That is just a few days, not a big deal.  If you can raise a beef for 17 days you can raise it for 20...  The saddle is worse than other saddles.  This whole tree could be deleted and nothing would be lost.  It doesn't even make a good false choice b/c it would be SO BAD to look at everything else Wig brings to the table and decide to fight on a beef instead lol.

Max doesn't care about 75 health.  It is not a significant part of his game play.  Most character downsides have been brushed away with the refreshes and Maxwell is no exception.  With shadow duelists scaling up as they do, and shadow prison locking all mobs even bosses in place - yeah he doesn't care about 75 health.  The real advantage of riding a beef is that it doesn't damage his armor if he gets hit, and he wants stuff like bone helm to last forever.  But in most fights he won't get hit much anyway b/c prison + duelists means he can be a screen away dancing and watch bee queen die.

[Mysterious box]

12 minutes ago, xDpromonick9 said:

I ain't biased in anything I do, everything I do is critical thinking, the problem we have is too many people disturbing reality being biased cause they can't think outside the box, and Klei should NOT listen to biased opinions.

I'm not biased other people are is one of the most biased things I've ever heard...

13 minutes ago, xDpromonick9 said:

But the MOMENT the BEEFALO ITSELF counter the ENTIRE idea of more than 5 CHARACTER IN THE GAME sure we have something wrong.

See the problem here is even if it is a lot easier to tame a beefalo these days they are a investment and a added burden you need to account for at all times which is what balances them out.

[Swiyss]

39 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Wig is not a beefalo character.  She has nothing to do with beefalo for most of her game play because dismounting and fighting is strictly superior for her.  Same with Wolfgang - it would be really dumb to get on a beef for combat if you were Wolf or Wig.

The abilities of a beef are nice for anyone for shrugging of attrition damage and for infinite durability weapon - but the tanking and damage dealt are not as good as many characters without beefalo.  If you mount a beef with Wigfrid you are weaker then if you just fight, and no skill tree needs to try and change that.

Most of Wigs beefalo stats don't do anything for other people anyway.  Tame 15% quicker?  That is just a few days, not a big deal.  If you can raise a beef for 17 days you can raise it for 20...  The saddle is worse than other saddles.  This whole tree could be deleted and nothing would be lost.  It doesn't even make a good false choice b/c it would be SO BAD to look at everything else Wig brings to the table and decide to fight on a beef instead lol.

Max doesn't care about 75 health.  It is not a significant part of his game play.  Most character downsides have been brushed away with the refreshes and Maxwell is no exception.  With shadow duelists scaling up as they do, and shadow prison locking all mobs even bosses in place - yeah he doesn't care about 75 health.  The real advantage of riding a beef is that it doesn't damage his armor if he gets hit, and he wants stuff like bone helm to last forever.  But in most fights he won't get hit much anyway b/c prison + duelists means he can be a screen away dancing and watch bee queen die.

I understand your points, I understand your statements, I understand youre correct in some ways and wrong in other yet you can't agree with facts. but can you actually try to understand my point of view? here it is:

people go : wanna ride cow but cow too weak
klei *buffs cow

I enter server, everyone has cow, I dislike cow, cow is better than foot. I get sad.

I say : i'm happy that people have cow, I'm happy for them, I'm happy for you, but cow is stronger than feet rather then different style of gameplay. it's simply buff over feet.

Klei listens and make cow hard to tame -----> that is the issue

with that idea, again, I can make an item that gives 100% movespeed, but it takes 4 in game years and 1000 recource grnding. that equals bad design.

biased cow lovers impossible to understand another person perspective.

klei makes cow tree on wigfrid; I give idea on new solution

cow people : noooo, cow should be stronger, faster and better than feet period. ----> thats ignorance

i'm not talking specifically about you guys, but most people I talk seem to be biased like this.

[Yuuko]

4 minutes ago, xDpromonick9 said:

I say : i'm happy that people have cow, I'm happy for them, I'm happy for you, but cow is stronger than feet rather then different style of gameplay. it's simply buff over feet.

 

I think the only time cow is stronger than on feet is Wendy.  I think everyone else is stronger on feet for dps.  For shrugging off some damage is it okay, but it will not tank and trade with a boss the way marble suit + perogies will.

Planar nerfs beefalo even more so that even Wendy cannot use it.  Everyone uses BS sword, and sometimes scythe, but mostly bs sword.  Its too OP - high damage, planar, ez repairs, mats delivered to base.  Beefalo can use a buff and still be weaker than BS sword.

[Swiyss]

Just now, Shosuko said:

I think the only time cow is stronger than on feet is Wendy.  I think everyone else is stronger on feet for dps.  For shrugging off some damage is it okay, but it will not tank and trade with a boss the way marble suit + perogies will.

but can you understand that I can tame a cow, explore with insane speed and if I am stronger than cow I CAN DROP OFF COW AND USE HAND.

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

I think the only time cow is stronger than on feet is Wendy.  I think everyone else is stronger on feet for dps.  For shrugging off some damage is it okay, but it will not tank and trade with a boss the way marble suit + perogies will.

Planar nerfs beefalo even more so that even Wendy cannot use it.  Everyone uses BS sword, and sometimes scythe, but mostly bs sword.  Its too OP - high damage, planar, ez repairs, mats delivered to base.  Beefalo can use a buff and still be weaker than BS sword.

the same way people like riding this thing, i don't like riding this thing. if there are 2 people with different views, 1 cant be stronger than other, just different, both need pros and cons so I can choose which con I want and which pro I want. I'm willing to sacrifice this for that is way healthier than THIS = BETTER period.