Slingshot Ammo

[Mysterious box]

I know I know another Walter post again and it's even talking about a concept that's been talked about a fair bit on skill trees too but lately I've been thinking does anyone think people would be less harsh on Walter's slingshot if ammo took less overall work to make and store? I'm saying this even considering no change to the damage and firing speed while I still think they should happen I'm more curious how people would feel about it if just the ammo was tweaked.

It kind of feels like one of the bigger gripes people seem to have after talking to many people is that the slingshot asks you to put in so much work and resources with little payoff but what if the work you put in was a lot less making the lowered pay off feel less horrible? Where the slingshot fails is even with established farms the sheer amount of material and inventory space it eats up keeps you from fully enjoying it as a weapon which leads to fear of being wasteful and fully committing to using it I feel. Now I've already said previously that I feel the real solution on that front is to massively raise the amount of ammo per craft and inventory stack size on rounds in general but I think a few more tweaks are needed to make Walter's slingshot feel better even if it doesn't change from a use perspective.

First I'd still keep with what I'd mentioned previously on the stack size being 200 per slot but only keep the 40 rounds per craft on the damage dealer rounds but bump the rounds that use gems up to 50 per craft which might sound abit crazy but I'll get to my reasoning on the latter later.

The next big change I feel needs to happen is reducing the craft requirements on his higher end ammos to make them more accessible to the average player. For freeze and slowdown rounds I feel it's as simple as removing the moon rock cost but for cursed rounds I'd remove nightmare fuel from the craft requirements and remove needing the pseudo science station to craft them this would mean Walter would only need to gather thulecite fragments to craft cursed rounds further improving his storage capabilities with the ammo type.

I feel like the change is really worth it as I've been told by many Walter players even ones that frequent the ruins that it's just too time consuming to make them to a useful degree down there when you could just use a lot less nightmare fuel on much stronger equipment down there taking far less time overall.

Now as for the freeze and slowdown rounds there's multiple reasons for my suggested changes. First when it comes to characters with crowd control options Walter's are by far the most expensive by far even compared to some default options for example freeze rounds cost 1 gem and 1 moonstone while a ice staff just costs 1 gem I know I've talked this point to death but they both have the same total freeze count technically despite the staff firing much faster with the only difference being the freeze rounds technically always fire 2 rounds worth but this also meaning that against mobs that take a uneven amount of shots to freeze your always wasting shots. Putting that aside however his crafts costing moon rocks means that in he's far more limited in how often he can use his crowd control rounds compared to other characters because not only are moon rocks far more limited but they also have a lot of uses and can be more scarce in a multiplayer setting.

As for why I say he should get 50 rounds per craft for these rounds in particular it comes from me comparing him to other character's crowd control and gem options as well as just making him less greedy resource wise. I'm sure most people who play Maxwell and Wickerbottom for example enjoy using their books but imagine for example Maxwell's shadow prison and shadow sneak or Wickerbottom's arachnophobia costed a full gem every 5 to 10 casts you would probably next to never see them casting those abilities outside of serious situations right? That's where Walter's special rounds currently land despite filling the exact same role his special rounds are supposed to ease his experience when using the slingshot but their costly nature gives players the feeling they need to keep holding on to them for a situation that may never come.

 

To summarize I feel the biggest problem with the slingshot might just be it's cost and I'd love to see the devs experiment with that aspect even if just in a short beta to see if the perception of the slingshot changes any. Either way I'd like to hear what you all think is it too expensive or is it alright as is cost wise and we should just focus on tweaking other aspects?

[GreenBowers]

I know its not exactly the same, but woodie having a skill that lets him craft boards slightly cheaper kinda opens the door for a craft related skill like that. 

If not for less resources, then maybe just crafting them in greater quantities.

I feel like it would be nice to get more ammo per craft while maintaining the individual shot's effectiveness. 

Part of me kind of wants a craft similar to the bundling wrap, but to just store ammo in high quantities, like a bag of marbles esc thing where it takes up 1 inventory slot but can store up to 4 stacks of ammo, while also being able to remove a stack at a time from it. Like a quiver for a traditional ranger/bow character, but just for ammo. I wouldnt want it to be a backpack item cause like, i feel like it would be insanely counter intuitive

Im not too sure about making rounds stack up to 200, though it would probably be easier than a new craft. I do like a sense of progression of acquiring new equipment, so thats just my feelings on that

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, GreenBowers said:

I know its not exactly the same, but woodie having a skill that lets him craft boards slightly cheaper kinda opens the door for a craft related skill like that. 

If not for less resources, then maybe just crafting them in greater quantities.

I feel like it would be nice to get more ammo per craft while maintaining the individual shot's effectiveness. 

Part of me kind of wants a craft similar to the bundling wrap, but to just store ammo in high quantities, like a bag of marbles esc thing where it takes up 1 inventory slot but can store up to 4 stacks of ammo, while also being able to remove a stack at a time from it. Like a quiver for a traditional ranger/bow character, but just for ammo. I wouldnt want it to be a backpack item cause like, i feel like it would be insanely counter intuitive

Im not too sure about making rounds stack up to 200, though it would probably be easier than a new craft. I do like a sense of progression of acquiring new equipment, so thats just my feelings on that

The reason I say 200 is that would put in it more in line with normal weapons a spear has 150 uses, thulecite clubs have 200 uses, even a tentacle spike has at least a 100 uses but 60 is far too low without a doubt for a weapon that'll usually be ranging 34-51 damage per attack especially when it comes to gold rounds even on a pig a very standard mob that's a full 8 shots to kill it which is nearly 1/6 of the slot. The quiver idea does sound nice though but it would probably need a whole new u.i. to manage different ammo types. But one way or another the stack size really needs adjusted for example say you wanted to fight ancient guardian with gold rounds it'd take 295 rounds or with marble it'd take 197 rounds but inventory slot wise that'd be 5 slots for gold rounds with one of those slots being in the slot shot and 4 slots for marble following the same which is far too much space being eaten up just for the combat rounds that's even before even considering freeze, slowdown, and poop pellets or melee weapons, healing, and other materials you might be carrying. With a carrying capcity of 200 per slot that's reduced down to 1-2 stacks making inventory management far less stressful with the slingshot without being glued to a backpack.

[Jakepeng99]

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

As for why I say he should get 50 rounds per craft for these rounds in particular

Not really, the blue ice pellets break even with the regular ice staff since they freeze twice per shot. It should make 15-20 ice rounds.

[GreenBowers]

I'd say something like, Tier one of a skill making you craft 15 rounds per craft, increasing the stacking amount to 45, then Tier two of a skill making you craft 20 rounds per craft, increasing the stacking about to 60. That way its nice and even when you wanna create a full stack.

[Mysterious box]

3 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Not really, the blue ice pellets break even with the regular ice staff since they freeze twice per shot. It should make 15-20 ice rounds.

Not quite in their current state freeze rounds cost 1 moon rock and 1 blue gem while the staff costs 1 spear and 1 gem even just considering the resource involved it's a bad deal however when you go into the specifics the staff has 20 uses while the rounds comes with 10 yes each shot from the slingshot is twice as effective but any mob who takes a odd number of hits to freeze like a bird effectively wastes a shot because you can't use half a freeze round which is another negative on the rounds. Finally you have to take into account the fire rate is far slower on the slingshot than the ice staff meaning it's harder to freeze things in intense situations which is another negative. Even if you match the craft amount to a normal ice staff it still comes up being inferior for the cost and the slowness. There's also the possibility of shots missing wasting a entire shot.

7 minutes ago, GreenBowers said:

I'd say something like, Tier one of a skill making you craft 15 rounds per craft, increasing the stacking amount to 45, then Tier two of a skill making you craft 20 rounds per craft, increasing the stacking about to 60. That way its nice and even when you wanna create a full stack.

I'm not sure sure I fully understand what you mean here the current ammo stack size is already 60 also I'm not sure 20 ammo per craft would really make much of a difference cost wise unless I'm reading this wrong?

[GreenBowers]

Wait youre right, im dumb. Completely off the mark there, for some reason I thought it stacked to 40 when typing. I do think 20 per craft would at least be better than 10 per craft, its double bang for your buck. I just think changing it from 10 per craft to 50 per craft is a very large jump of an upgrade without costing multiple skill slots, but I do think crafting more rounds per material is a good idea.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, GreenBowers said:

Wait youre right, im dumb. Completely off the mark there, for some reason I thought it stacked to 40 when typing. I do think 20 per craft would at least be better than 10 per craft, its double bang for your buck. I just think changing it from 10 per craft to 50 per craft is a very large jump of an upgrade without costing multiple skill slots, but I do think crafting more rounds per material is a good idea.

The idea was 40 per craft on damage dealing ones and 50 of crowd control rounds when you look at it on the weapon side of things even at it's still very expensive at 20 rounds when you look at it from the perspective of a tentacle spike that's still 5 marble or 5 nightmare fuel and thulecite to match the total damage of a weapon that drops for zero resources aside from tentacles being killed. Not to mention the fact that the actual dps of it is matching a spear which can be made for just 3 grass, 2 twigs, and a flint. The point I'm getting at is the intention is to make it really cheap so we as players have a easier time overlooking the flaws and frustrations of the weapon without having to make it more on par with melee combat. As for why I felt 50 rounds for crowd control rounds was needed I felt it made more sense when you consider the multiplayer setting and the limited nature of gems as well as the cheapness of similar abilities. Ideally I'd be fine with 20 rounds per craft on crowd control rounds if the cost to make them wasn't gems but from a lore perspective them not costing gems wouldn't make sense. Take slowdown rounds for example each round slows a single target for 30 seconds by reducing it's speed by 1/3 but you only get 10 shots for a entire gem and a moon rock even if bumped up to 20 it doesn't seem the best when compared to other characters. Maxwell's shadow prison for example shadow prison can hold multiple creatures at once and while it only lasts 24 seconds on normal mobs and 12 seconds on a boss it's comes from a far more abundant resource it only needs 1/5 of a single nightmare fuel to cast meaning to match 10 slow down rounds Maxwell only needs 2 nightmare fuel. Which is always readily available unlike gems which is becoming a more common character craft as time goes on. Wickerbottom's book directly competes with his ammo as well her book costs 8 silk and 2 papyrus which is still much cheaper than using a gem and it can regenerate removing the need to craft more. She can use it 5 times before it breaks but most are only going to use 4 before placing it back in the bookshelf to repair it. Everything except flying mobs are slowed by 1/4 for 2 minutes while it is worth mentioning that both abilities cost sanity to use as well Walter already loses a huge amount of sanity on hit without a payoff already more or less balancing that aspect out. That being said would you be more ok with bumping the crowd control rounds down to 40 like my proposed craft amount for damaging rounds? 

[GreenBowers]

I think keeping the crafted amount of all the different types uniform is probably for the best, not to over complicate things. I do feel like the jump to 40 shouldnt be in a single skill, mostly because the stark difference of base kit and skill point. It being more gradual would make it feel better to me/make it more of an investment.

 

If they do go for the ammo craft being 40, it should be like, Skill 1 is 20-25 rounds a craft, and skill 2 is 40. Personally id be happy with any increase.

[Mysterious box]

23 minutes ago, GreenBowers said:

I think keeping the crafted amount of all the different types uniform is probably for the best, not to over complicate things. I do feel like the jump to 40 shouldnt be in a single skill, mostly because the stark difference of base kit and skill point. It being more gradual would make it feel better to me/make it more of an investment.

 

If they do go for the ammo craft being 40, it should be like, Skill 1 is 20-25 rounds a craft, and skill 2 is 40. Personally id be happy with any increase.

I was more so talking under the assumption the slingshot didn't get any upgrades via the skill tree but I'd be completely fine with this being a skill on the skill tree. I'd probably bundle it with a storage cap increase as well though.

[GreenBowers]

If the slingshot did get an upgrade in the tree, I kinda think one way they could adjust the damage or firing speed is a new, more expensive slingshot that serves as a direct upgrade to the current one. Maybe like a 1.25x damage modifier to anything fired out of it.

 

Or they could just go the Wolfgang route and just do a flat damage increase but for slingshot attacks. I do feel the ammo will have a few adjustments made to them if/when Walter's skill tree comes around

[Well-met]

my only problem is there's no way to reliably stock large amounts of marble trinkets

those should do like 100 damage, too